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[CrazyHal]

I remember reading articles about the whole "sex sells" thing in the past out of curiosity and i found out that "sex sells" is kind of a misconception.

Here's the thing, sex does indeed sell but it does not sell more. There's data and studies out there that shows that movies, games, books, commercials ect that puts an emphasis on sex appeal don't sell more than those that do not. Most of the time, it's the other way around. There is a few exceptions though, like 50 shades of gray which is one of the best selling books of all time.

All that said, i believe that the data and studies that i mentioned only apply to North America. Things most likely differ from culture to culture.

 

[AESplusF]

It's not an attack on character but a question of general philosophy / taste.

Eden hasn't answered whether there is any kind of sexualised female design he thinks is appropriate. If there isn't one, then he's just at an ideological impasse from most of the rest of us, pretty much, and he's coming from a very sex negative place. At that point there's not a lot of discussion left to be had.

So that's entirely relevant to the discussion, imo. Audioboxer put it better than I could further up the thread, but CE hasn't responded to that, presumably because it would be difficult.

I don't disagree with everything he says - I agree with him on both Tracer's 'action line' and Marcus Fenix, for example. But I do suspect that he is not okay with any kind of sexualised imagery of females in games and I do wonder what's behind that aversion, because I don't think it can be fully explained by a quest for equality.

Basically.

 

[Kinyou]

As someone who just came into this thread, it's taking a really gross turn. You guys have gotta play detective-GAF and attack Eden's character? Pick apart her arguments, sure, but the character attacks are really gross and not what I expect, or want, to see when I get on GAF.

I wasn't exactly playing detective gaf but just remembering an earlier argument I had with Eden. Also Eden is continually flustered about why someone might say he/she's sex negative, so I pointed out an example.

 

[Griss]

Dude there's nothing sex negative about critiquing out of place sexualization of women in games. The idea that people like you question whether or not it comes from some sense of puritanism has as much basis in reality as the idea that the women in ME:A were designed to be "ugly" or that they hired minorities and women over "talented" people. As in, not at all and quite laughable.

Can you just answer if there is any 'in-place' (rather than out-of-place) sexualisation of a female character in a game that you approve of so I can get some kind of a baseline as to what you think is okay vs not okay? You're still ignoring that question.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Can you just answer if there is any 'in-place' (rather than out-of-place) sexualisation of a female character in a game that you approve of so I can get some kind of a baseline as to what you think is okay vs not okay? You're still ignoring that question.

Well he does have a list of pictures, but out of them, Aloy and Lara come from critically acclaimed games and they are both sexually attractive(I would say Aloy is out of place since she somehow has managed to be attractive despite being in a post apocalyptic world), whilst the rest of examples he lists are critically underwhelming and from average games.

Coincidence? maybe, maybe not.

 

[Mega]

It's not an attack on character but a question of general philosophy / taste.

Eden hasn't answered whether there is any kind of sexualised female design he thinks is appropriate. If there isn't one, then he's just at an ideological impasse from most of the rest of us, pretty much, and he's coming from a very sex negative place. At that point there's not a lot of discussion left to be had.

So that's entirely relevant to the discussion, imo. Audioboxer put it better than I could further up the thread, but CE hasn't responded to that, presumably because it would be difficult.

I don't disagree with everything he says - I agree with him on both Tracer's 'action line' and Marcus Fenix, for example. But I do suspect that he is not okay with any kind of sexualised imagery of females in games and I do wonder what's behind that aversion, because I don't think it can be fully explained by a quest for equality.

I'll leave him to give a definitive answer, but I've asked as much in the past and gotten no response, only replies that sidestep the question to answer a question that wasn't asked. I suspect the same as you that there is no good sexualized female character in his eyes.

 

[TheEndOfItAll]

Edit: beaten

 

[RM8]

I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:

And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:

See, there's a place in gaming for Nurse B. But it's one tone and unwelcoming if she's overwhelmingly the only kind of nurse we have in an entire medium. Because as much as other mediums like movies value youth and attractiveness, your average movie would not depict Nurse B instead of Nurse A (who is pretty, indeed).

 

[SarusGray]

attractive people have always sold products. And will continue to for a long time. If you make them unattractive they are less likely to sell. If we're going by sex=attractive, yes, sex sells.

 

[plasmawave]

It's funny how he doesn't see that he likes one type of clear sexualization but chastises another as being wrong and inappropriate.

Those are designed in the west so it's gets a pass. This is coming from the guy who thinks the Japanese designers are brainless and inferior.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Can you just answer if there is any 'in-place' (rather than out-of-place) sexualisation of a female character in a game that you approve of so I can get some kind of a baseline as to what you think is okay vs not okay? You're still ignoring that question.

Here's the thing, I feel that this medium is insanely bad when it comes to handling sexualization, objectification, and actually handling the actual subject of sex especially compared to other mediums even comic books, and quite frankly that's saying something. Often times characters are sexualized and never are doing anything having to do with sex. Meanwhile, I find that this is one of if not the most nuanced portrayal of sex in this medium. And that's because it has something to say. It's not even that great all things considered. But, at least there's an ounce of nuance there. An added bonus, is that the woman is the one who initiates, and unlock other examples of that, she isn't punished for it.

I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:


And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:


See, there's a place in gaming for Nurse B. But it's one tone and unwelcoming if she's overwhelmingly the only kind of nurse we have in an entire medium. Because as much as other mediums like movies value youth and attractiveness, your average movie would not depict Nurse B instead of Nurse A (who is pretty, indeed).

Dude don't want humanized depictions of women or critique sexualization. That means you're a puritan.

 

[AESplusF]

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:

On what basis is that considered "puritanical" in "gaming culture"?

MGSV

 

[4Tran]

Those are designed in the west so it's gets a pass. This is coming from the guy who thinks the Japanese designers are brainless and inferior.

The point is that when it comes to objectification, it's about more than just character design, and that poses and other kinds of presentation are just as important. This is why the popular pose that shows off a woman's butt and breasts at the same time is derided so much.

attractive people have always sold products. And will continue to for a long time. If you make them unattractive they are less likely to sell. If we're going by sex=attractive, yes, sex sells.

Being attractive is not where the bar for sexual objectification begins.

 

[Crossing Eden]

On what basis is that considered "puritanical" in "gaming culture"?

MGSV

Based on the logic that advocating for more designs like in the second half the OP gets one called a sex negative puritan.

The point is that when it comes to objectification, it's about more than just character design, and that poses and other kinds of presentation are just as important. This is why the popular pose that shows off a woman's butt and breasts at the same time is derided so much.

I've literally said as much but that's just crazy bullshit man.

Spoiler

That user absolutely isn't interested in discussion at all btw and is likely jumping at the chance to call me racist so don't bother.

 

[RM8]

On what basis is that considered "puritanical" in "gaming culture"?

MGSV

I'm using the discussion in this thread as context for my example, not literal nurses, lol. People have said calling for designs like Nurse A instead of B is puritanical.

 

[Griss]

Here's the thing, I feel that this medium is insanely bad when it comes to handling sexualization, objectification, and actually handling the actual subject of sex especially compared to other mediums even comic books, and quite frankly that's saying something. Often times characters are sexualized and never are doing anything having to do with sex. Meanwhile, I find that this is one of if not the most nuanced portrayal of sex in this medium. And that's because it has something to say. It's not even that great all things considered. But, at least there's an ounce of nuance there. An added bonus, is that the woman is the one who initiates, and unlock other examples of that, she isn't punished for it.


Dude don't want humanized depictions of women or critique sexualization. That means you're a puritan.

Ah dammit, you went to the trouble of responding to me and youtube is blocked at work, lol. I'll take a look in about an hour. Cheers for the reply.

 

[plasmawave]

Based on the logic that advocating for more designs like in the second half the OP gets one called a sex negative puritan.


I've literally said as much but that's just crazy bullshit man.

Spoiler

That user absolutely isn't interested in discussion at all btw and is likely jumping at the chance to call me racist so don't bother.

It's almost as if you get called out for being racist when you say racist shit

 

[Euphor!a]

Spoiler

That user absolutely isn't interested in discussion at all btw and is likely jumping at the chance to call me racist so don't bother.

I never once even considered you being a racist, race never even entered my mind. You are delusional and this is just more crazy bullshit.

 

[AESplusF]

Based on the logic that advocating for more designs like in the second half the OP gets one called a sex negative puritan.

I'm using the discussion in this thread as context for my example, not literal nurses, lol. People have said calling for designs like Nurse A instead of B is puritanical.

Well that's unfortunate.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:


And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:


See, there's a place in gaming for Nurse B. But it's one tone and unwelcoming if she's overwhelmingly the only kind of nurse we have in an entire medium. Because as much as other mediums like movies value youth and attractiveness, your average movie would not depict Nurse B instead of Nurse A (who is pretty, indeed).

Well, of course

On face value the two images you have posted really conform to reality vs fantasy. The first is what you'll see if you enter a hospital, or a patient in a sitcom reality drama does.

The second is what you might see in some form in a fantasy either in a different era, time or whatever it is being depicted. Often the game, movie or TV show knows it is portraying something outside the realms of 1:1 real life. 50% of the time in any given game there are suspensions of reality taking place...

Often if B appears in scenario A, people would be a bit lost for words. Not to mention such a situation might not even get to appear on day time TV. That's undeniable. If B appears in its own vacuum then ymmv on how people will respond, but sure, some may enjoy it, laugh at it (as in find it fun, not laugh AT the actor/character in a demeaning way) and ultimately see it for what it probably would be. Some sort of fan service, cheap titillation and so on.

Gaming can often tip to scenario B, things being done for "eye candy" and to "titillate". That is not instantly perverted, though, and like my words about day time TV above often in games if there is going to be nudity/sexual themes, like violence, content will be rated AT LEAST T, often M. Or in UK standards, 15 if not 18. Content doesn't just get to get out there rated PG with boobs and guts flying around. Adults exist just as minors playing Mario Kart exist (and hey, adults love Mario Kart too!). Adults often enjoy... adult fantasy. Which from the dawn of time has included violence and sex powerplays.

Gaming also tips to scenario A, though. Not every single game out there deals with sexualisation. Many are very grounded, based on real life and often at times with nothing about sex or even violence. That is what rubs some the wrong way when diversity really means, what I want, rather than everyone in the industry being allowed a slice of the pie. At times a pie which may well cater more to one audience than another, but I nodded to that earlier. Gaming is still heavily male dominated. Over time this is getting "better", as in within employment, but yes, far more females are gaming than ever. Many developers are stepping outside comfort zones as well, and I personally thought Horizon was a great example of this from a developer who's largely done safe FPS. Although, some of the shit Horizon got... sheesh.

The thing is though, to have a balanced argument in here you also have to accept females also enjoy sexual stimulation, even from female characters. Male characters too, but females enjoying powerful, sexy and confident female characters tends to come from different parts of their brains being stimulated over a generally equal male who views for straight titillation ("titillation" for females as I also alluded to earlier often comes more from imagination, which is why they dominate in the romance novel sector). Every time you mention cosplay it immediately gets shut down with "STFU about cosplay", and someone brings out some stupid as shit bingo card. Again, spoken about at length many posts ago, sex-positivity often involves confidence, expression and the ability to be sexual. Hence, the cosplay world is on fire with many of the "problematic" characters in gaming (company marketing knows this too with the rise of public gaming expos/events!). It's the female brain taking a sexualised character and appreciating it, but maybe for slightly different reasons than the male brain does. To simply shame the male brain, and prop up the female brain, around the exact same character, is precisely what leads to people questioning if others have some genuinely deep seated issues around the topics of sex/sexualisation. I mean, see how quick, if at all, some of the posters in here shaming and talking down about sexualisation will go the same tirade at a female gamer who enjoys dressing as Quiet or Cindy. I'm certain anyone doing that would be scolded, told to mind their own business and told not to shame that woman for enjoying expressing their sexuality... At the very least in relation to that, I wish some wouldn't be so quick to throw some males under a bus as perverts, lunatics, oppressors, misogynists or any other serious offences unless there is serious evidence. Simply enjoying sexual fantasy/sexuality/sexualisation is not grounds to instantly shame, put down and name-call. No matter what gender you are. This is what can swerve into sex-negativity and a whole range of mental issues around shaming leading to anxiety and depression in younger minds. Adult minds too, though.

 

[Extollere]

There has been "sexualized" male and female characters since the 8 bit gen or before, but I only remember people complaining about female characters.

Instead of calling them "sexist designs" or "sexualized characters" I think it would be more accurate and less agressive and offensive for devs to call them sexy characters or designs and beauty ideals for devs/artists.

I don't think it matters too much what devs call it. People are going to react to it the same way. Again, I'm not saying sexy characters are innately bad, but I don't feel like it's good for the industry to ignore complaints either. We live in a different world than we did 20 years ago.

The game industry still has a lot of work to do in becoming more accepting and less hostile towards women in the workforce. Until we get equality and representation in that workforce I don't know that we'll see the kind of meaningful and lasting changes to game culture and representation of certain people in games, because such decisions emanate from the people in that industry. Public opinion can make a difference for sure, but we still need more women in this field guiding the creative process, and even taking leadership positions.

 

[MoonFrog]

I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:


And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:


See, there's a place in gaming for Nurse B. But it's one tone and unwelcoming if she's overwhelmingly the only kind of nurse we have in an entire medium. Because as much as other mediums like movies value youth and attractiveness, your average movie would not depict Nurse B instead of Nurse A (who is pretty, indeed).

Idk. I think there is plenty of room between A and B. I also don't think B is "sex," in the sense that something is sex if and only if it "is," in some sense, B.

I mean, personally, I don't tend to find stereotypical "porno" versions sexy. I like some moderation, some obfuscation, perhaps, but still more obviously sexy than A. And perhaps what I like is gratuitous to some, but, put it this way, I'm uncomfortable with the Quiets of the world too. I just think there is much more room than there is being acknowledged.

Also, if you're advertising your hospital or school as having/putting out comely nurses and doctors, I think you are selling, in part, with sex.

 

[sensui-tomo]

I've literally said as much but that's just crazy bullshit man.

Spoiler

That user absolutely isn't interested in discussion at all btw and is likely jumping at the chance to call me racist so don't bother.

Well it didnt help that you didnt notice your typo for about half a day and went on that topic not understanding why people didnt understand your "I'm not white" post that day .

I've been on gaf waaay too much and i've had deja vu from these threads too much lately.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I never once even considered you being a racist, race never even entered my mind. You are delusional and this is just more crazy bullshit.

Wasn't talking about you dude. Read that post....he didn't quote you.

Well it didnt help that you didnt notice your typo for about half a day and went on that topic not understanding why people didnt understand your "I'm not white" post that day .

I've been on gaf waaay too much and i've had deja vu from these threads too much lately.

Yes that certainly didn't help but that user was doing that before that and saying I have a bias against Japanese games years at this point. A bit grating actually, like, "pay more attention" is my response to that accusation

 

[Inferno313]

Wasn't talking about you dude.


Yes that certainly didn't help but that user was doing that before that and saying I have a bias against Japanese games years at this point. A bit grating actually, like, "pay more attention" is my response to that accusation.

Hey, don't worry, if Plasmawave thinks you're shit, then you're probably doing something right.

 

[plasmawave]

Hey, don't worry, if Plasmawave thinks you're shit, then you're probably doing something right.

And this is coming from a liar who made up shit about James Rolfe's video lol.

 

[Demoskinos]

Hard to control for variables in practical metrics, but I'd venture Senran Kagura without it's main selling point wouldn't fare quite as well.

Also the ability to fuck Garrus was an incalculable boon to ME3.

Yeah, when I hear people talking more about who they are going to bone in Mass Effect Andromeda than the systems or story in the game its something that people absolutely pay attention to.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Hey, don't worry, if Plasmawave thinks you're shit, then you're probably doing something right.

Ayyyy.

 

[Inferno313]

And this is coming from a liar who made up shit about James Rolfe's video lol.

 

[DocSeuss]

I don't think it's so much that sex sells for most creators.

It's a lot simpler than that.

Most artists I know like to draw folks they're attracted to. I know a lady who really likes drawing Thor's butt, for instance. And there are a lot of creative types who like makin stuff about things they're attracted to. Tarantino's all about women's feet, for instance. Ain't nothin wrong with this.

 

[Gxgear]

Corporations don't think like individuals do. They have to determine what'll appeal to the widest audience and design their games as such, despite our best protests.

 

[Mega]

I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!

In gaming culture, this is puritanical:


And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:


See, there's a place in gaming for Nurse B. But it's one tone and unwelcoming if she's overwhelmingly the only kind of nurse we have in an entire medium. Because as much as other mediums like movies value youth and attractiveness, your average movie would not depict Nurse B instead of Nurse A (who is pretty, indeed).

But how often does Nurse B happen across all of gaming? I keep seeing the same few examples brought up over and over in these threads that the B situation is rampant and out of control. The fact of the matter is that there are more in-between examples and yet those aren't good enough for certain posters who want it strictly to be much closer to A if not in fact just that. It's boring if you ask me. Going back to audioboxer's example of a 0-100 scale where A is 10-ish and B is 90-ish, some of you fellas want the industry to cater primarily to 0-20 whereas some of us prefer the full spectrum up to near 100.

And I'm sure it was just coincidence, but I'm not surprised that you subconsciously picked out a nice white average-proportioned nurse to illustrate "good," while a voluptuous woman of color is the "bad" example. This same disturbing and subconscious bias came up in the TeacherBae thread (a curvy brown school teacher posting Instagram doing nothing except standing in her pics and being judged as being slutty, and gaffer posting tons of examples of "appropriate" slender white girls).

And before you comment and put words in my mouth: no, Eden, I'm not comparing IRL women to cartoons and computer characters. Calm down. All I'm doing is drawing a clear parallel exists that Gaffers such as you, overwhelmingly young American males, have a bias for what is morally upright and wholesome.

 

[hertog]

Is cindy sexy, from ffxv? She's like zangief who has been in his underwear for years nothing sexy about her, she's a comical caricature

 

[Mailbox]

Is cindy sexy, from ffxv? She's like zangief who has been in his underwear for years nothing sexy about her, she's a comical caricature

Yes her design is inharently sexy. Considering the visable bra and thong amongst others.

Though tbf my problem w/ her designis that it kinda betrays how the game sees her. No one in The game makes note of the outfit, and she's often seen as semi-tragic workaholic. For the sake of theming of her character a more... "normal" mechanic outfit would have worked better.

But that's just me.

 

[AESplusF]

I don't think it's so much that sex sells for most creators.

It's a lot simpler than that.

Most artists I know like to draw folks they're attracted to. I know a lady who really likes drawing Thor's butt, for instance. And there are a lot of creative types who like makin stuff about things they're attracted to. Tarantino's all about women's feet, for instance. Ain't nothin wrong with this.

As an artist, I agree, that is often the case. The writing is usually the problem.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Is cindy sexy, from ffxv? She's like zangief who has been in his underwear for years nothing sexy about her, she's a comical caricature

The intention is titillation for the male gaze. I mean, they used her as a car skin, advertised her figure without showing her face but instead her chest, and used car rides with her as an incentive for a VR game.

 

[4Tran]

I don't think it's so much that sex sells for most creators.

It's a lot simpler than that.

Most artists I know like to draw folks they're attracted to. I know a lady who really likes drawing Thor's butt, for instance. And there are a lot of creative types who like makin stuff about things they're attracted to. Tarantino's all about women's feet, for instance. Ain't nothin wrong with this.

There's still a big difference between designs you're attracted to and sexual objectification. And as a lot of objectification happens without the creator's conscious intent, the fact that there aren't any sinister motives involved is besides the point.

 

[AESplusF]

The intention is titillation for the male gaze. I mean, they used her as a car skin, advertised her figure without showing her face, and used car rides with her as an incentive for a VR game.

Do you think that kind of thing should go away entirely?
Or do you think games need to do a better job of catering to the female gaze?

 

[-Amon-]

Sex sells because attractive girls have been used from the first commercial. And the same has been doing using boys for products that are to be sold to women. This 'tactic' is been used today too, this is the ultimate proof that it works.

That's human nature for you.

No one news better about it than people that create commercials.

 

[CamHostage]

But how often does Nurse B happen across all of gaming?

In the 90s, it was pretty much every game with a female protagonist on the cover who wasn't named "Dora"...

We have better representation these days, but that doesn't mean it's not worth talking about still, or that blatant examples of grotesque sexualization (although hey, that can be fun too, let's just have some moderation and consideration) are counter-acted by all the modern heroines (those young, size-zero-waist, tastefully attired, young women) who manage to save the day without being powered by boob physics.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Do you think that kind of thing should go away entirely?

It should be heavily reduced considering the effects it continues to have on this medium imho.

Or do you think games need to do a better job of catering to the female gaze?

We'd be lucky to get characters that we can point to as characters designed first and foremost for women instead of the state of things where characters are heroically idealised self inserts made for male gamers.

 

[MoonFrog]

But how often does Nurse B happen across all of gaming? I keep seeing the same few examples brought up over and over in these threads that the B situation is rampant and out of control. The fact of the matter is that there are more in-between examples and yet those aren't good enough for certain posters who want it strictly to be much closer to A if not in fact just that. It's boring if you ask me. Going back to audioboxer's example of a 0-100 scale where A is 10-ish and B is 90-ish, some of you fellas want the industry to cater primarily to 0-20 whereas some of us prefer the full spectrum up to near 100.

And I'm sure it was just coincidence, but I'm not surprised that you subconsciously picked out a nice white average-proportioned nurse to illustrate "good," while a voluptuous woman of color is the "bad" example. This same disturbing and subconscious bias came up in the TeacherBae thread (a curvy brown school teacher posting Instagram doing nothing except standing in her pics and being judged as being slutty, and gaffer posting tons of examples of "appropriate" slender why girls.

And before you comment and put words in my mouth: no, Eden, I'm not comparing IRL women to cartoons and computer characters. Calm down. All I'm doing is drawing a clear parallel exists that Gaffers such as you, overwhelmingly young American males, have a bias for what is morally upright and wholesome.

While we're on this, the whole fetishization in a lot of anime of "flat," or approaching it, and not always in the child-sexpot sort of way. Often swimsuit scenes even use clothes coded as modest for a bikini and the girls have "modest" figures.

Yeah, I swing more that way and that gives me pause and makes me ask "how is sex selling to me?" And it often isn't in the oft-quoted ways in this thread.

And it's like, I'm sure I've engaged on GAF about problematic content playing to my sexuality on GAF, but suddenly that isn't sex selling games.

Suddenly Fire Emblem waifu either aren't selling the game or they aren't "sex."

 

[molnizzle]

We'd be lucky to get characters that we can point to as characters designed first and foremost for women instead of the state of things where characters are heroically idealised self inserts made for male gamers.

The problem with this is that a character designed "first and foremost for women" would be so similar to a "heroically idealized self insert made for male gamers" that you'd just call it the latter anyway. Since a huge aspect of the heroically idealized male insert is to be attractive to heterosexual females.

The Captain America character from the current MCU was likely intended to be a heroically idealized figure for young men to look up to, but you better believe my wife has my ass in line for the midnight showing every time that motherfucker is gonna be on screen. Heroically idealized male figures are attractive as fuck to heterosexual women.

So really, all you're asking for here is for the women to stop showing so much skin. But you're not being puritanical or sex negative?

Okay.

 

[AESplusF]

It should be heavily reduced considering the effects it continues to have on this medium imho.

Well what effects are you referring too? The character designs are really secondary to the poor execution in my opinion.

 

[mugwhump]

I haven't seen much evidence that sexualization has any real correlation with sales. The most I can think of are a small handful of games targeting niche audiences where a sexy character design became popular (dragon's crown) which probably helped shift a few units. I can also think of a few counterexamples.

Though it can be hard to separate the sexualization from other aspects of games which may have caused them to succeed or fail.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The problem with this is that a character designed "first and foremost for women" would be so similar to a "heroically idealized self insert made for male gamers" that you'd just call it the latter anyway. Since a huge aspect of the heroically idealized male insert is to be attractive to heterosexual females.

Except that devs go out of their way to desexualize male characters. Just being attractive isn't the metric.

The Captain America character from the current MCU was likely intended to be a heroically idealized figure for young men to look up to, but you better believe my wife has my ass in line for the midnight showing every time that motherfucker is gonna be on screen. Heroically idealized male figures are attractive as fuck to heterosexual women.
Gee I wonder why your wife wants to see Captain America, hint hint, Hollywood isn't thinking of you or other men when they shoot stuff like this and put it in superhero movies:

So really, all you're asking for here is for the women to stop showing so much skin. But you're not being puritanical or sex negative?

Okay.

Because these characters are totes actual women and not characters that are amalgamations of a team of men's fetishes. There's totes no difference at all.

 

[Arkage]

I believe the "sexy lady sells games" is mostly a trope left over from when videogaming was primarily a teenage-boy thing. Maybe back in the 80s and early 90s it was true, but demographics and tastes have changed.

There's no reason to really doubt that some % of horny dumb teenage boys would still buy a game flashing cleavage vs not, but this a pretty narrow demographic. And for all the talk of "lets not compromise the artists vision by censorship," you're meanwhile making the argument that pandering to sexual tropes for sales is, in some bizarro world, "artistic vision." There are tons of gamers that are now married (myself included), which are now hypothetically refusing to buy games when they become too preposterous. I find stuff like Quiet and FFXV mechanic lady pretty embarrassing to play in front of my wife, because then it makes it feel like I'm trying to relive some dumbass juvenile experience from my teens, when I'm really just there for the gameplay.

 

[molnizzle]

Gee I wonder why your wife wants to see Captain America, hint hint, Hollywood isn't thinking of you or other men when they shoot stuff like this and put it in superhero movies:

Sure they could've, dude is ripped. Part of that "heroically idealized male insert" is to be muscular and considered physically attractive by women. Hell, you've made the exact opposite argument before when people bring up how most male video game characters have impossibly muscular and attractive bodies. When the argument suits you, those characters are only there to make male players feel powerful. When it doesn't suit you, they weren't designed for men in the first place.

Because these characters are totes actual women and not characters that are amalgamations of a team of men's fetishes. There's totes no difference at all.

...earlier in the thread you literally had an argument with me about how these fictional characters should now be considered actual women as we continue to approach photorealism.

Which is it?

 

[Audioboxer]

I believe the "sexy lady sells games" is mostly a trope left over from when videogaming was primarily a teenage-boy thing. Maybe back in the 80s and early 90s it was true, but demographics and tastes have changed.

There's also no reason to really doubt that some % of horny dumb teenage boys would still buy a game flashing cleavage vs not, but this a pretty narrow demographic. There are tons of gamers that are now married (myself included), which are now hypothetically losing out on sales if it becomes too preposterous. I find stuff like Quiet and FFXV mechanic lady pretty embarrassing to play in front of my wife, because then it makes it feel like I'm trying to relive some dumbass juvenile experience from my teens, when I'm really just there for the gameplay.

Just to throw a spanner in your anecdotes, but what has really changed is simply you have grown up. The teenager you used to be hasn't ceased to exist. It's just other boys now instead of you.

Consider the fact you have a wife a progression from the days of playboy mags, seeing boobs and getting titillated through "things boys do". Sure. This can naturally happen for a lot of men once they actually get to have sex with a woman/women, but hey, many still enjoy visual stimulation and so forth even if they have a partner. Whether it's in movies, tv-shows or even games.

Many teenage boys are still navigating through puberty and the worlds of sex and women that you've long since left. What may have changed these days is the ease of access to full blown adult entertainment at the click of a mouse. Rather than magazines or softcore scenes on VHS tapes in the 80s and 90s (which were often harder to get, and not always as "hardcore"). However, this is one reason education needs to be damn fucking good these days, and sadly it is not. Hence my hellbent involvement in somewhat trying to steady the boat from going from 0 to 100 within gaming as I know for a fact many of the younger eyes that can't help be titillated by games, are probably inexperienced, ill-educated and getting all shamed and bent out of shape constantly being told online they are sadists, sexists, misogynists and so forth for liking "waifus" or whatever it is they like. There is of course many adults in those positions too, some of which just have a sexual vice enjoying fantasy/roleplaying with make believe characters/worlds, so in that sense again jumping right to shaming just because it's someone in their 20's/30's+ isn't always sex-positive appropriate move.

Just because most of us are now adults, doesn't mean there isn't younger boys still playing games these days. That's a bit like revisionist history when parents get all hard ass on their teenagers for masturbating or exploring sex because "act like an adult" or "you're not allowed to have sex even although if I speak honestly I was having sex at your age". I mean, you can understand the overbearing parent complex, often coming from trying to instil wisdom and experience in a young mind, but what is hard to understand at times is other adults online raging at kids that aren't even theirs to stop enjoying or doing anything sexual. Just being completely sex-negative to random people they don't even know.

 

[John Kowalski]

Lulu's cleavage is really out of place tho