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The character design for The Order: 1886 is so good.
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
- Start date
Sho_Nuff82
Member
That's what iconic means, in terms of character design. Even if someone doesn't care for the individual characters, the AC hood itself is iconic, as it immediately identifies a character as being part of the series.
Is the generally accepted definition.
I'd argue that the creature designs are far more distinct than the human characters in this game, and will truly set it apart. Watching a few of the dev videos it's clear they put a lot of work into the real-time transformations, and it'll be interesting to see that play out during the game.
Ashad Mamood
Banned
Mods need to do something about this drive by shit posting or trolling?
OsirisBlack
Banned
Completely agree and December can't get here soon enough cannot wait to see how this turns out. I can see people being upset if this turns out to be a great game which is nonsensical to me.
Yea I hope the same. I really love the character design and the overall world. Maybe a little bit of tweek in aiming and trying out different guns might make it more fun. Really wasn't enjoying the gun in the demo.
JuanLatino
Member
Not only the Characterdesign, but also the artdesign, the atmosphere and the dirty steampunk World looks fantastic.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
the OP reads like satire
Again, the whole point is that it doesn't matter what likely would've happened during the time period because they've already eschewed historical accuracy.
If your game set in ancient Africa featured time traveling Africans, then everything has already been compromised and adding that asian shaman wouldn't be any more of a distraction than the absurdity of the premise.
No, they are not. They have created an entirely new world featuring people who shouldn't exist during the time the game is set, with weapons that are more advanced than anything currently in existence.
London has never had werewolves. Tesla never made those weapons. The foundation of the story is inaccurate, which is perfectly fine but it undermines any claim of wanting to be historically accurate. They can have period-specific clothing and diction but they are clearly not letting themselves be limited by the setting with other aspects of the story or gameplay.
My being critical of diversity in this game does not preclude me from being critical of other games. I've talked about the lack of diversity in other games in the past. How does having a non-white character undermine the class conflict that the developers say they're going for?
The issue is the arguments I've seen against having diversity in this game. I'm not saying that they need to change something right now to add a non-white character, I'm saying that there is nothing inherent to their new unrealistic and historically inaccurate version of Victorian England that would have prevented them from having a more diverse lineup of protagonists.
Ganzlinger
Member
It was said that they wanted to bring out-of-place technology without losing that victorian era feeling. As far as I can tell, there weren't much ethnic diversity in London at that time.
Oppo
Member
There is such a thing as internal consistency in fiction. It has to make sense.
By your argument, the inclusion of any one fantasy element automatically allows for absolutely anything else. Aliens, cyborgs, faeries, throw them all in there, they all need representation right?
There weren't very many Knights who were hundreds of years old, either, but that didn't stop them. I'm also pretty sure that there weren't any fairytale monsters.
Based on what they've shown, none of those things would seem out of place in this game.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Non-white people would be as unbelievable as aliens in this setting.
Pretty sure the game isn't going to change significantly from here to release, it's a cover-based shooter. Such a boring and safe gameplay choice for such an interesting setting.
Oppo
Member
Do you really not understand this? I'll take what you say at face value but it's a bit hard to believe.
It's a steampunk style alt-history fiction. They take history and they bend it in a few places to suit a more fantastic storyline. Certain inventions are accelerated, others are possible where they were not before.
You keep repeating this thing about "if they have magic why can't they have multiethnic people" and the answer is that this is a stupid thing to put in for the sake of itself. That is what people mean when they call it tokenism. The game simply doesn't have any reason to do that. And any writer worth half a damn would tell you the same thing.
Yeah I know, that's what I'm trying to convey here.Spring-Loaded said:
I think the biggest reasoning for not including minority members of the order is because they're keeping the traditional origin stories of the various knights of the round. History probably didn't divert much until after the formation.
As a 36 year old, I say that dude looks forties, not 30s.
He's hundreds of years old.
What I don't understand is why you can't see how insane it is that you're fine with them bending history to the point of including things that could not, and would not, be possible but merely including a non-white character is an affront to history that should not be discussed.
And again, what I've been saying is that there shouldn't have to be a specific "reason" to include non-white characters, especially when it's a fantastical setting. There is no such restriction placed on white characters in any game and the arguments about "historical accuracy" fall apart when a game is only superficially accurate to the history that it is attempting to portray.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Lol. Wut. Aliens, cyborgs, faeries wouldn't seem out of place? You really don't seem to understand the consistency that goes into world-crafting.
Messofanego
Banned
The production values. The particle fx look great when you ignite the smoke trails from the weapon. Framerate was a bit hitchy, but they've got time to go (or are they aiming for a cinematic framerate ho ho).
I found it super slow, the character didn't seem to match how slow he moves compared to even Gears of War and it was not the wisest of demos being a literal corridor with no opportunity for flanking. Shooting felt unsatisfying. Shiny hair, though. Really nice looking shiny hair.
Lol I know, right? The fact that they're including fairytale creatures like werewolves makes fairies and such completely unrealistic. Those crazy futuristic weapons that Tesla makes for them are way too realistic for a world with cyborgs.
Ganzlinger
Member
Yeah, that's it. It is basically "what if something happened in that era that would bring new technologies and monsters and how that society would react to those things?". That isn't an excuse to modify that society with insertion of immigration and minorities if the causality wouldn't have any impact on those matters.
luca_29_bg
Member
the demo is very old build full of bugs...it's nothing like the game right now ^^
jackissocool
Member
The weapons are not that fantastic. There's a rifle, a shotgun, a gun that shoots flammable spikes, and a Tesla coil you can hold. It's all stuff that they could've put together then, although they wouldn't have made great weapons.
And you're misrepresenting the argument about there being a need for a reason for the minority characters. It's the same reason you'd need an explanation for a white dude in 15th century Australia.
I hope this is a joke post and you understand the difference between actual diversity and nonsense tokenism. No one here is saying anything to the effect of wanting black people out of video games or anything that even implies that. But here it clearly wouldn't make any sense and would require significant changes to the creative vision.
But it is an excuse to modify that society by inserting people into that world who should've been dead hundreds of years beforehand. Just as long as they're all white, though.
Messofanego
Banned
Ooooh well I don't care for Assassin's Creed, Rockstar games, Killzone, Resistance, Uncharted, or Call of Duty. Something about the enemy encounters or AI or other story stuff just isn't interesting enough.
Favourite games are a bunch of shooters (Wolfenstein TNO, Max Payne, Metro, Riddick/Darkness, Alan Wake, Bulletstorm, STALKER, Spec Ops The Line), stealth games (Splinter Cell, Mark of the Ninja, Dishonored, Tenchu, Batman Arkham, The Marvellous Miss Take), adventure games like Broken Sword or The Longest Journey series, and loads of indie stuff (Zeno Clash, Kentucky Route Zero, Papers Please, The Path, But That Was Yesterday, The Swapper, Chivalry, too many more).
In before I get selectively criticised for my tastes.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I was actually thinking that the roster was too white myself, but I think you're creating an argument that's absolutely ridiculous and goes about it the wrong way.
The Order is supposed to take place in Victorian England. Not a fantasy setting based on Victorian England, but Victorian England as we knew it. The game seems to be set up so that "The Order" is a secret, elite society that fights the werewolves and vampires. The entire premise is still centered around Victorian England itself. Take a contrasting game like Dishonored, which is a fantasy world based on Victorian England. That game has the creative freedom to add anything it wants because it is only thematically derivative of the period. It is not a game about that period. A game like Skyrim or any other "medieval fantasy" (The Witcher, Dragon Age, Dark Souls, etc) are based on medieval Europe, but aren't actually in Medieval Europe. There is a huge difference in those approaches. One has to be thematically consistent in portraying the era-appropriate stuff. The other has much more creative freedom.
The Order should be free to have minorities, not because "LOL Tesla and werewolves, therefore anything goes!" Rather, the simple answer is that RAD (and any developer) should be able to weave a convincing story about who the character is and why the character fits into the story. In fact, weaving in the issue of the real-life prejudice and discrimination of the time would make the game even more compelling and socially relevant.
You have immortal knights fighting werewolves and who knows what else with weapons that today's military wishes they had. Having brown people in the game would be a stretch though? This is like saying Anno Dracula couldn't have minorities in it because of the period it takes place.
Ganzlinger
Member
The story happens in a country which the majority (if not entirely) of the population was white. What the unrealistic longevity has to do with non-white people coming to Britain? If the developers wanted to have non-white people in the story they could, of course. But without a proper explanation, that would be just social inclusion service.
They have the creative freedom to add whatever they want at any point because their game (as with any game) is a fantasy. There is nothing keeping them from adding anything without sacrificing a cohesive story, as long as their writers are up to the task and my point the entire time has been that if they are able to bend history enough to add highlanders with super weapons to Victorian England, then they can add non-white characters without undermining their (fictional) setting. It's insane that werewolves and immortals are somehow more palatable to people craving historical accuracy than a non-white playable character.
jackissocool
Member
Now this I can agree with. I really hope they work race into the story about class conflict, although I guess I understand if they don't - dealing with race and class and werewolves might be too big a scope. Honestly I'm terribly familiar with Victorian England. And since it's established that the Order can adopt new members - Lafayette joined during the French Revolution - I'd love for a chronologically future game to feature minority members of the Order. Indian immigrants (from the big post-WWII wave) would be cool to work into the game, or a more modern one to have Middle Eastern immigrants dealing with the modern wave of Islamophobia. I personally suspect Lafayette (with his background) will leave the Order to fight with the people.
No. A game specifically about the aristocracy doesn't allow for minorities as playable characters. A game from the perspective of the rebels fighting the Order would and should include minorities.
I do not like being accused of racism.
Blacks have a long history in Europe and England. There were Moors, African nobles and, of course, slaves who were in Europe constantly for hundreds of years. Since the 1800s a nice portion of Europe, especially England and France, has been black.
Ganzlinger
Member
This man knows what's up, and he has a great avatar.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
But a werewolf or a super-weapon can be easily dropped into the game because it is so clearly a fantasy. I'm not speaking for other's arguments (good or bad they may be), but for me, the issue isn't that the black character would be historically inaccurate. There were indeed blacks in Victorian England. So your argument of "LOL werewolves, fantasy and creative freedom!" is the incorrect way to approach this. In fact, you're devaluing the entire argument in favor of racial inclusion and making it look ridiculous. Here's the thing: there is nothing historically inaccurate about having a black character in the game in this time.
The issue is that given the setting of Victorian England, the black character (and perhaps even attitudes towards that character) should be historically accurate. What would be immersion breaking and silly would be throwing in token minorities. If you're going to throw a minority into a racially prejucided time like Victorian England it should be done right,and if done right, as I said, it could provide a compelling glimpse into the issues of that era.
Right back at you!
You mean to tell me that you can accept some bullshit magic potion to explain away people who live for hundreds of years but there is simply no explanation you can think of for why there could be a black/asian/latino knight? Is it really that hard?
This is the issue and at this point it's probably more suited for a separate thread. If they want to make their league of extraordinary white Knights, that's fine, but what I can't accept are the people who say that there is no possible explanation for why the roster could include more diversity without the premise falling apart.
Ah, so that's the one portion of the creative vision that we're not allowed to take issue with. Mmkay. Weapon spread, alleyway E3 demos, enemy selection, yada yada - all up for grabs. But the second anyone brings up the fact that this fantastical world filled with big old werewolves based on an era that did have some minorities kicking around...well maybe it couldn't hurt to talk about having some minorities in the game? NOPE HEY WE'VE GOT A VISION TO PROTECT HERE.
long story short, I'm not that invested in The Order as a game. It looks pretty, but I'm more of a Gears guy. My issue is with you people (intentional phrasing, believe it) twisting yourselves like Stretch Armstrong to find any excuse to keep minorities out of games that *clearly* are built around fantastical elements because we are the one element that would be too unrealistic. We see it, we see you, and we're calling it out for what it is.
Now I understand all the bitching about the black bars in this game. heyooooooooooo
That wasn't my entire argument, that was a response to another post. You're cherry-picking things to try to create a point of view for me that doesn't exist.
And, as I said earlier,
jmood88 said:
Oppo
Member
I hope that's not directed at me... I was trying to explain why having a Mexican Galahad (as an example) for no good reason would be insulting and tokenistic. If they have a good reason, then great, but that's a hard thing to shoehorn with Arthurian knights, as the four main squad people supposedly are.
Now, jmood88, there's actually a pretty good example of this sort of thing in recent contemporary media - remember when they cast Idris Elba as Heimdall in the Thor movies? The Stormfront types went fucking crazy. And on the surface I can see this being the same case Thor is magical, this is essentially magical, therefore what's the problem if one of them is dark skinned or southeast asian or whatever? We've tossed out all the rules, right? That's your argument.
But in terms of story, if you have a connection that's based on existing fiction, such as Knights of the Round table, and all those characters are known (and white) then you need to explain to the viewer/player why this Galahad or whomever is different. And if there isn't a good internally consistent reasoning in the fiction, it comes across as pandering, or at the very least poorly thought out. I'll get back to Heimdall in a sec.
The Order's history doesn't seem to even attempt to bend the English societal setup. They've bent technology, and thrown in some supernatural elements. Everything else is basically "the same" from that forked point in history. Therefore Mexican Galahad would be, frankly, distracting. If they had gone deeper and shown the world significantly rearranged, or set in the future, you could do something like that (and it actually sounds cool now that I think of it) but they put this Arthurian/Victorian frame around their world-building. If you're going to criticise the lack of inclusiveness in this game, criticize that choice.
To bring it back around to Heimdall he was a god, portrayed many different ways, and gods are not just magical but almost super-magical. Odin liked to show up in different forms, etc. Elba's Heimdall didn't bother me at all, I thought he looked badass, but I did think the choice was odd when I read it, just because I couldn't picture it. As it turned out it was practically an aesthetic choice (well, besides him being quite an excellent actor and all, of course) His look was almost completely bronze. And it worked, because he was also holding a 7 foot sword and wearing preposterous god-armour and had glowing eyes. You wouldn't be able to do the same thing in The Order's sort of story, because it doesn't push the suspension of disbelief that far.
Anyways. Hope I don't eat a ban for that, it's an interesting topic. I don't agree that "magic" is a binary on/off switch that allows for supreme internal fictional consistency between any element, if present. That's what I meant about the aliens, faeries etc. You have to explain all of it, in a fantasy setting, so people have a grasp on the internal consistency of the world. If you have a black character in this setting you need to set up how s/he got there and do justice to it. You know the old saying: the difference between fiction and truth is that fiction has to make sense.
krimsoncharge
Member
galahad is clearly inspired by an indian actor.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Enlighten us, what exactly would you have done to combine that setting with compelling gameplay.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
In b4 make it open world.
But a werewolf or a super-weapon can be easily dropped into the game because it is so clearly a fantasy. I'm not speaking for other's arguments (good or bad they may be), but for me, the issue isn't that the black character would be historically inaccurate. There were indeed blacks in Victorian England. So your argument of "LOL werewolves, fantasy and creative freedom!" is the incorrect way to approach this. In fact, you're devaluing the entire argument in favor of racial inclusion and making it look ridiculous. Here's the thing: there is nothing historically inaccurate about having a black character in the game in this time.
The issue is that given the setting of Victorian England, the black character (and perhaps even attitudes towards that character) should be historically accurate. What would be immersion breaking and silly would be throwing in token minorities. If you're going to throw a minority into a racially prejucided time like Victorian England it should be done right,and if done right, as I said, it could provide a compelling glimpse into the issues of that era.
Right back at you!
Views on blacks were mixed at the time. Given the status of the character, at worst he woudl have resentment from someone who feels he should have that position. As far as scientific racism of the time goes, IIRC it was more of a thing in the U.S. and a lot of England's racism was tied to the upward mobility blacks had gained. On the other hand, there were highly successful black Englishmen at the time who did well in the time. There's no more need to bring up why this character is in the order than anyone else. Black people had large communities in England and were a common sight in big cities.