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The character design for The Order: 1886 is so good.

Jobbs

Banned
the mustache is nice, but I still find myself longing for a bit more diversity out of AAA games. why not let the woman there be the main character? that'd be far more interesting to me.

that said, the game looks pretty great and I'll definitely be buying it. They definitely score big points with me for going with a more interesting setting than most shooters and I want to be careful not to let that point get lost.
 

jmood88

Member
I hope that's not directed at me... I was trying to explain why having a Mexican Galahad (as an example) for no good reason would be insulting and tokenistic. If they have a good reason, then great, but that's a hard thing to shoehorn with Arthurian knights, as the four main squad people supposedly are.

Now, jmood88, there's actually a pretty good example of this sort of thing in recent contemporary media - remember when they cast Idris Elba as Heimdall in the Thor movies? The Stormfront types went fucking crazy. And on the surface I can see this being the same case – Thor is magical, this is essentially magical, therefore what's the problem if one of them is dark skinned or southeast asian or whatever? We've tossed out all the rules, right? That's your argument.

But in terms of story, if you have a connection that's based on existing fiction, such as Knights of the Round table, and all those characters are known (and white) then you need to explain to the viewer/player why this Galahad or whomever is different. And if there isn't a good internally consistent reasoning in the fiction, it comes across as pandering, or at the very least poorly thought out. I'll get back to Heimdall in a sec.

The Order's history doesn't seem to even attempt to bend the English societal setup. They've bent technology, and thrown in some supernatural elements. Everything else is basically "the same" from that forked point in history. Therefore Mexican Galahad would be, frankly, distracting. If they had gone deeper and shown the world significantly rearranged, or set in the future, you could do something like that (and it actually sounds cool now that I think of it) but they put this Arthurian/Victorian frame around their world-building. If you're going to criticise the lack of inclusiveness in this game, criticize that choice.

To bring it back around to Heimdall – he was a god, portrayed many different ways, and gods are not just magical but almost super-magical. Odin liked to show up in different forms, etc. Elba's Heimdall didn't bother me at all, I thought he looked badass, but I did think the choice was odd when I read it, just because I couldn't picture it. As it turned out it was practically an aesthetic choice (well, besides him being quite an excellent actor and all, of course) His look was almost completely bronze. And it worked, because he was also holding a 7 foot sword and wearing preposterous god-armour and had glowing eyes. You wouldn't be able to do the same thing in The Order's sort of story, because it doesn't push the suspension of disbelief that far.

Anyways. Hope I don't eat a ban for that, it's an interesting topic. I don't agree that "magic" is a binary on/off switch that allows for supreme internal fictional consistency between any element, if present. That's what I meant about the aliens, faeries etc. You have to explain all of it, in a fantasy setting, so people have a grasp on the internal consistency of the world. If you have a black character in this setting you need to set up how s/he got there and do justice to it. You know the old saying: the difference between fiction and truth is that fiction has to make sense.
If you can suspend your disbelief when dealing with immortals and fairytale creatures but a non-white knight has to have anything more elaborate than the "they just drink a potion" type of explanation that the other characters get, then there's just no more that we need to discuss.
 

Oppo

Member
If you can suspend your disbelief when dealing with immortals and fairytale creatures but a non-white knight has to have anything more elaborate than the "they just drink a potion" type of explanation that the other characters get, then there's just no more that we need to discuss.

I suppose not.
 
Ah, so that's the one portion of the creative vision that we're not allowed to take issue with. Mmkay. Weapon spread, alleyway E3 demos, enemy selection, yada yada - all up for grabs. But the second anyone brings up the fact that this fantastical world filled with big old werewolves based on an era that did have some minorities kicking around...well maybe it couldn't hurt to talk about having some minorities in the game? NOPE HEY WE'VE GOT A VISION TO PROTECT HERE.

long story short, I'm not that invested in The Order as a game. It looks pretty, but I'm more of a Gears guy. My issue is with you people (intentional phrasing, believe it) twisting yourselves like Stretch Armstrong to find any excuse to keep minorities out of games that *clearly* are built around fantastical elements because we are the one element that would be too unrealistic. We see it, we see you, and we're calling it out for what it is.

Now I understand all the bitching about the black bars in this game. heyooooooooooo

Jesus. What are you even blabbing about? People disagree with those arguing against the mechanics and everything else, so this is no different. I'm pretty sure you'll find people defending everything about the game, not just this. And is me disagreeing with you you being silenced? Am I commanding you to hold your tongue and not dare to speak against the almighty Ready at Dawn? No. I'm explaining why I think it makes sense to have a group of white protagonists when the game is about an old, classist group of oppressive bastards. It makes sense that they're a little racist too. I'm not saying black people aren't allowed or that they didn't exist in Victorian London. I'm not saying they shouldn't show up in the game - I've actually said the opposite of that! I am saying that they don't make sense as protagonists given what we know about the setting. Now, could they make changes to the setting to allow that? Sure, absolutely, and I wouldn't complain one bit. But Ru had a creative plan for this game that he's been working on for a very long time and this is what fits.
 

Jobbs

Banned
this really is gorgeous stuff. this isn't new, but worth seeing again.

DarlingImmaterialBedlingtonterrier.gif


assuming this is in no way bullshit-ized, wow. the lighting, the animation. incredible.
 
You mean to tell me that you can accept some bullshit magic potion to explain away people who live for hundreds of years but there is simply no explanation you can think of for why there could be a black/asian/latino knight? Is it really that hard?

This is the issue and at this point it's probably more suited for a separate thread. If they want to make their league of extraordinary white Knights, that's fine, but what I can't accept are the people who say that there is no possible explanation for why the roster could include more diversity without the premise falling apart.

No, you are misunderstanding me. There are a lot of explanations the developers could bring to justify a more diverse roster, I can think of many and this guy came up with the best, which is a historical fact:

Blacks have a long history in Europe and England. There were Moors, African nobles and, of course, slaves who were in Europe constantly for hundreds of years. Since the 1800s a nice portion of Europe, especially England and France, has been black.

However, the question is: why do you think it isn't normal to have a group of 4 white characters if the non-white population at that time was probably less than 1% of the total? The odds, man. lol
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
This game is basically the perfect example of young western developers aiming for Hollywood with tried and true games merely as vehicles.

And I'm OK with that in this case. Mostly because I'm willing to give Ready At Dawn the benefit of the doubt. And the setting and art style are what help me see past the Gears of War bullshit.

As for the all Caucasian cast? Not every game needs to have a heavily characterized female, or a homosexual, or a black/latino person to be topical or politically correct or whatever ...

In this game's setting it fits. We don't need Blade shoehorned in to avoid racial bias accusations.
 

Vice

Member
However, the question is: why do you think it isn't normal to have a group of 4 white characters if the non-white population at that time was probably less than 1% of the total? The odds, man. lol

Resources, if they are an elite organization there is a likelihood they would need resources of some sort from places like Africa. Trade with the area was a huge deal a the time and if the Order has existed for some time having a strong alliance with an equally influential African group, or just having one inside family, would make sense.

Trade and resources at the time, especially before full-blow colonization, would require close ties to someone with wealth in the area.
 

KissVibes

Banned
All there of these dudes look the same to me with different facial hair. Are they brothers?

This game is basically the perfect example of young western developers aiming for Hollywood with tried and true games merely as vehicles.

And I'm OK with that in this case. Mostly because I'm willing to give Ready At Dawn the benefit of the doubt. And the setting and art style are what help me see past the Gears of War bullshit.

As for the all Caucasian cast? Not every game needs to have a heavily characterized female, or a homosexual, or a black/latino person to be topical or politically correct or whatever ...

In this game's setting it fits. We don't need Blade shoehorned in to avoid racial bias accusations.

Yup, that's what people want. Blade. Ya fuckin' nailed it.

Edit: Maybe threads about The Order going a certain way say a LOT about the game and not so much the people talking about it?
 

LastNac

Member
These Order threads kill me. THEY KILL ME!!!!

Some people bitch about "cinematic", others "Black Bars", even more so Linear.

Some people just can't take something being developed to scratch a certain itch. Some people want everything to play the same, etc, etc.


Really hope this sells and reviews well just so many of you will be robbed of that soapbox that a certain few constantly climb on top of.
 
Resources, if they are an elite organization there is a likelihood they would need resources of some sort from places like Africa. Trade with the area was a huge deal a the time and if the Order has existed for some time having a strong alliance with an equally influential African group, or just having one inside family, would make sense.

Trade and resources at the time, especially before full-blow colonization, would require close ties to someone with wealth in the area.

That's not really how European colonization of Africa worked for the most part. It was largely white people murdering enormous numbers of black people and destroying their power structures. While there were some instances of trade between powerful parties, for the most part it was exchanging death for wealth.
 

Jobbs

Banned
In this game's setting it fits. We don't need Blade shoehorned in to avoid racial bias accusations.

I would never accuse them of being racially biased or racist or insensitive or anything else for having an all white cast.

in my case, it's like this -- I see every AAA game come down the pike, and time after time it's another gravelly voiced white guy with little variation.

are white guys inherently bad? no. can you have a good story about white guys? yes.

but when it's game after game after game of white dudes I think it feels reasonable to occasionally react by saying -- hey, there are other people out there than white men with gravelly voices. let's try something else.

I'm not accusing anyone of being biased or racist or anything. it'd just be nice to see more variety. that's all. ;)
 

jmood88

Member
No, you are misunderstanding me. There are a lot of explanations the developers could bring to justify a more diverse roster, I can think of many and this guy came up with the best, which is a historical fact:



However, the question is: why do you think it isn't normal to have a group of 4 white characters if the non-white population at that time was probably less than 1% of the total? The odds, man. lol

It doesn't matter if it was normal or not. If it was 1% of the population, they can have a member of that population be in the group of fictional characters they've created. Unless they're running a random number generator with realistic proportions to figure out how many people of each ethnicity should be in the game, if there was a single non-white person living during that time, then that person could be a character in the game. Population numbers have no bearing on anything.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Resources, if they are an elite organization there is a likelihood they would need resources of some sort from places like Africa. Trade with the area was a huge deal a the time and if the Order has existed for some time having a strong alliance with an equally influential African group, or just having one inside family, would make sense.

Trade and resources at the time, especially before full-blow colonization, would require close ties to someone with wealth in the area.

Oh, wow. Why aren't you writing the story for this game?

Seriously, let the creators do what they please. Hunter type characters always operate on their own, there's nothing "elite" about it. Thinking of the Order as some elite group of people and noticing the absense of blacks is probably what's fueling these reactions

It's a genre trope to have lonesome hunters chasing down things that nobody else believes exists (or are oblivious to) in with nothing else but their knowledge and whatever means they can find. Having a full blown organization takes away from the mystery of fighting a deaf war in the shadows.

Where's the Blade equivalent among the current cast? I'll wait for your answer.

I used Blade as an example because of the genre, not because of "LOLWesleySnipesBlacksploitation".

But altering their vision just to make minorities feel validated? Feels a tad petty.
 

Vice

Member
That's not really how European colonization of Africa worked for the most part. It was largely white people murdering enormous numbers of black people and destroying their power structures. While there were some instances of trade between powerful parties, for the most part it was exchanging death for wealth.

Yes, an unlikely but plausible explanation for a black persons inclusion in The Order. After all, the werewolf conflict has started in what, the 9th century in the games universe before colonization had even begun to occur so resources would still be needed.
 

jmood88

Member
This game is basically the perfect example of young western developers aiming for Hollywood with tried and true games merely as vehicles.

And I'm OK with that in this case. Mostly because I'm willing to give Ready At Dawn the benefit of the doubt. And the setting and art style are what help me see past the Gears of War bullshit.

As for the all Caucasian cast? Not every game needs to have a heavily characterized female, or a homosexual, or a black/latino person to be topical or politically correct or whatever ...

In this game's setting it fits. We don't need Blade shoehorned in to avoid racial bias accusations.

1. There are very few games with non-white, non-straight males as the leads so I'm not sure where the "every game doesn't need *insert minority here*" thing is coming from.

2. No one is accusing the developers of racial bias. What I have been speaking out against are the arguments that a game with a setting as unrealistic as this one couldn't possibly have a non-white character without that character totally upending the setting and premise.
 

Vice

Member
Oh, wow. Why aren't you writing the story for this game?

Seriously, let the creators do what they please. Hunter type characters always operate on their own, there's nothing "elite" about it. Thinking of the Order as some elite group of people and noticing the absense of blacks is probably what's fueling these reactions

It's a genre trope to have lonesome hunters chasing down things that nobody else believes exists (or are oblivious to) in with nothing else but their knowledge and whatever means they can find. Having a full blown organization takes away from the mystery of fighting a deaf war in the shadows.

In-game the protagonists all belong to an group of knights with access to lots of technology and secret items. King Arthur's court or something like that. They are elite.
 
Yes, an unlikely but plausible explanation for a black persons inclusion in The Order. After all, the werewolf conflict has started in what, the 9th century in the games universe before colonization had even begun to occur so resources would still be needed.

Good point. I think that's probably the best way to do it - having a poor black person rise to join the Order undermines their purpose as the oppressive fist of the monarchy. Having a powerful African merchant or somesuch would work well and add some really cool character dynamics. I would actually really like to see that. It's such a specific corner case I can't say I'm disappointed it's not in the game, but...
I'm a little disappointed it's not in the game.

It's comical. Every Order thread there's got to be someone posting about how much it sucks as if they've played through it. The minority complaint is a new one though.
The minority complaint definitely makes a certain degree of sense considering race-exclusive trends in gaming, although I think it isn't exactly accurate for this game. Definitely worth discussing for just about every game, though.
 
Resources, if they are an elite organization there is a likelihood they would need resources of some sort from places like Africa. Trade with the area was a huge deal a the time and if the Order has existed for some time having a strong alliance with an equally influential African group, or just having one inside family, would make sense.

Trade and resources at the time, especially before full-blow colonization, would require close ties to someone with wealth in the area.

I'm sold, man. Good job. :)

It doesn't matter if it was normal or not. If it was 1% of the population, they can have a member of that population be in the group of fictional characters they've created. Unless they're running a random number generator with realistic proportions to figure out how many people of each ethnicity should be in the game, if there was a single non-white person living during that time, then that person could be a character in the game. Population numbers have no bearing on anything.

I'm not against minorities in the game, of course. We can have a lot of (good) explanations to have non-white characters in this game. The thing I am trying to explain here is that I don't think we can blame the developers for that choice as far as they chose that victorian era setting. The same thing would happen if The Order was set to happen in Africa and all the characters were black. We couldn't blame the developers for the lack of non-black people on that situation as well. This whole thing seems to be just a matter of game characterization they chose, I'm not telling that I like that, I'm just telling that makes sense.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
1. There are very few games with non-white, non-straight males as the leads so I'm not sure where the "every game doesn't need *insert minority here*" thing is coming from.

2. No one is accusing the developers of racial bias. What I have been speaking out against are the arguments that a game with a setting as unrealistic as this one couldn't possibly have a non-white character without that character totally upending the setting and premise.

Well they certainly could. But minorities in this time period weren't having such a good time, let alone be in a position to join a creature hunting brigade. That's not to say they couldn't be featured as supporting characters in the game. They just weren't concieved as protagonists during the game's conceptualizing stage.

In-game the protagonists all belong to an group of knights with access to lots of technology and secret items. King Arthur's court or something like that. They are elite.

And? How many black knights were there? Sure it would be cool to have a free black man/woman written in as a lead, but that wasn't the point. They've explicitly stated they're aiming for believability and authenticity besides the obvious fantasy.

EDIT:

Yeah, I'd just Googled it.

But, honestly, it only makes the inclusion of a minority even less likely, even if it's a fantasy game. It just isn't something you'd see during the time period, regardless of werewolves or not.
 
It'd be interesting if the game actually does tackle these issues, and RAD just didn't display it in any of the showings thus far.

I'm imagining a scene where the Knights are called out on elitism/racism or something.

I mean, we know that class conflict is already a big part of the narrative.
 

Vice

Member
And? How many black knights were there? Sure it would be cool to have a free black man/woman written in as a lead, but that wasn't the point. They've explicitly stated they're aiming for believability and authenticity besides the obvious fantasy.

No clue, there were a surprising number of black nobles/upper-class (able to go to events held by the King) at the time and African warriors had been part of many European armies for centuries. Blacks were a part of Europe in most areas of life.
 
1. There are very few games with non-white, non-straight males as the leads so I'm not sure where the "every game doesn't need *insert minority here*" thing is coming from.

2. No one is accusing the developers of racial bias. What I have been speaking out against are the arguments that a game with a setting as unrealistic as this one couldn't possibly have a non-white character without that character totally upending the setting and premise.

The largely non-white, multi-ethnic dev team at RaD designed the game this way out of a respect for historical accuracy - with the fantastic elements purposely being relatively grounded. You need historical accuracy to contrast with the fantastic elements to achieve the direction they're looking for.

I am ALL for diverse characters in games - but this is a frankly absurd argument. If you took away the historical relevance of the game, a large chunk of the point of interest would be gone. Could they have added a couple of non-white characters? Sure. Is the story a work of malleable fiction? Yes. But the more you chip away at the historical relevance of the game (as someone who spent many years reading medieval English texts, don't lecture me on the "existence" of Arthur and his knights - of course it's fiction, but the MANUSCRIPTS themselves maintain a ton of historical relevance). This isn't Dragon Age or Dark Souls where the world is entirely fantasy and therefore not being able to play as a certain race or ethnicity would be a bit of a problem.
 

Pennywise

Member
It'd be interesting if the game actually does tackle these issues, and RAD just didn't display it in any of the showings thus far.

I'm imagining a scene where the Knights are called out on elitism/racism or something.

I mean, we know that class conflict is already a big part of the narrative.

Actually they're tackling the issue elitism.
The whole concept was the idea of a conflict between 3 factions, the werewolves are pretty obvious.
The working population and the privileged population are the other two factions and the Knights are in between.
Which actually seems to fit the setting quite well and I'm curious how it will work out.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
The largely non-white, multi-ethnic dev team at RaD designed the game this way out of a respect for historical accuracy - with the fantastic elements purposely being relatively grounded. You need historical accuracy to contrast with the fantastic elements to achieve the direction they're looking for.

That's all there is to it.
 
Actually they're tackling the issue elitism.
The whole concept was the idea of a conflict between 3 factions, the werewolves are pretty obvious.
The working population and the privileged population are the other two factions and the Knights are in between.
Which actually seems to fit the setting quite well and I'm curious how it will work out.

As a socialist I always love seeing class struggles presented in media. I am not terribly pleased that we're getting it from the perspective of the rich white people, but I guess that's just derivative of the game being about Arthur's knights.
 

crazyprac

Member
Lmao The Order thread. Never fails to entertain.

But please while y'all flinging different colored feces at each other, post more gifs!
 

Pennywise

Member
As a socialist I always love seeing class struggles presented in media. I am not terribly pleased that we're getting it from the perspective of the rich white people, but I guess that's just derivative of the game being about Arthur's knights.
As I said, they're in between and struggle who to follow or whom to protect.
That's the impression I got from interviews/articles about the game.

So I doubt they're gonna take that elitist position until the end.
 
As I said, they're in between and struggle who to follow or whom to protect.
That's the impression I got from interviews/articles about the game.

So I doubt they're gonna take that elitist position until the end.

No, I think they're gonna take it at the start. Then they're gonna go against their orders. Lafayette will be the first to do it cause he's from the French Revolution.
 

jmood88

Member
The largely non-white, multi-ethnic dev team at RaD designed the game this way out of a respect for historical accuracy - with the fantastic elements purposely being relatively grounded. You need historical accuracy to contrast with the fantastic elements to achieve the direction they're looking for.

I am ALL for diverse characters in games - but this is a frankly absurd argument. If you took away the historical relevance of the game, a large chunk of the point of interest would be gone. Could they have added a couple of non-white characters? Sure. Is the story a work of malleable fiction? Yes. But the more you chip away at the historical relevance of the game (as someone who spent many years reading medieval English texts, don't lecture me on the "existence" of Arthur and his knights - of course it's fiction, but the MANUSCRIPTS themselves maintain a ton of historical relevance). This isn't Dragon Age or Dark Souls where the world is entirely fantasy and therefore not being able to play as a certain race or ethnicity would be a bit of a problem.

It's interesting that one or two non-white playable characters would somehow upend the entire fictional world and time period.
 
It's interesting that one or two non-white playable characters would somehow upend the entire fictional world and time period.

I'm not sure where you're inferring this notion from, perhaps do me the courtesy of actually reading my post.

And while we're on the subject of you not reading anything - why are you even in this thread if you have no idea about the game being discussed in here? It's been widely known by now there is only ONE playable character in the game and that's Galahad. Stop digging yourself deeper.
 

NastyBook

Member
This game is gonna be a visual master piece. It reminds me of what Gears of War did last generation; kinda brought the whole idea of what can actually be done and will only go up for there.

igMiopF1RwEhZ.gif
This scene, amongst all the scenes for this game so far, is the only one that turns my dick to diamonds when I see it. The attention to detail is just mindblowing.
 

jmood88

Member
I'm not sure where you're inferring this notion from, perhaps do me the courtesy of actually reading my post.

And while we're on the subject of you not reading anything - why are you even in this thread if you have no idea about the game being discussed in here? It's been widely known by now there is only ONE playable character in the game and that's Galahad. Stop digging yourself deeper.

It's coming from what you just wrote.They can take the time to throw in whatever insane elements that run completely counter to the setting and it's fine but those damn non-white characters would be the straws that break the camel's back. Funny how that works.

I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that I don't know anything about the game or that I was surprised at the playable character because that certainly didn't come from anything I've actually said. Someone mentioned a lack of diversity among the characters and the usual bullshit excuses came up, which is how this all started.
 
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