Captain Tuttle
Member
In my experience unions don't give a shit about workers either
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The Company You Work For Is Not Your Friend (Lifehacker)
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In my experience unions don't give a shit about workers either
Extra Sauce
Member
Sure.
CreepingFear
Member
It's not just the pay. I could easily find a contractor job making more money than I do now(I have previously), but usually they don't come with health insurance, dental, etc.
There's always a gamble involved. It's quite possible that I may never find a better boss and co-workers than I do now. If I have the opportunity to go from help desk to system administrator and get a 35% pay raise, I have to take that risk. This is assuming the job has the vacation and benefits that I currently have. I am leaving for the whole package, not just pay raise or job title.
This is why you interview while you currently have a job so that you have the ball in your court.
HR fucking suuuuucks and a lot of the time you get employees who work there that try to play judge, jury, and executioner with your employment if you get on their radar (using "too much time", making a complaint against a favored coworker, etc). I'm currently on their shit list and they've been trying to get me fired for months now.
They don't. Half the time the president is taking payouts from the company.
They don't. Half the time the president is taking payouts from the company.
It's true, you're never more than a number on a balance sheet, no matter what you might think, or what you're told otherwise.
I once worked for a fairly small, tightly knit company, everyone from the top to the bottom got on well, and it was like everyone was your friend.
I remember work was slow one month, and I can remember being told one Friday that there was no problem, everyone's job was safe, and the company was still in a good place.
I'll let you guess what half the workforce was greeted with the following Tuesday.
I once worked for a fairly small, tightly knit company, everyone from the top to the bottom got on well, and it was like everyone was your friend.
I remember work was slow one month, and I can remember being told one Friday that there was no problem, everyone's job was safe, and the company was still in a good place.
I'll let you guess what half the workforce was greeted with the following Tuesday.
I feel sorry for people who has to deal with all this tension and worry.
I'm happy with the unions' power and the laws protecting workers here in Sweden. My job couldn't lay me off for any other reason than me not doing my job or stealing from them. Even of they had to lay people of for redundancies I've worked for the company for 7 years, so there's a long list of people to make redundant before me.
And If I was made reduntant thay would have to pay me at 3 months wages at least, after that my Union benefit kicks in and I'd get 80% of my wages for a year or so while looking for new employment.
Could I be making more money somewhere else? Probably, but I feel that security is more important than some extra spending money.
I'm happy with the unions' power and the laws protecting workers here in Sweden. My job couldn't lay me off for any other reason than me not doing my job or stealing from them. Even of they had to lay people of for redundancies I've worked for the company for 7 years, so there's a long list of people to make redundant before me.
And If I was made reduntant thay would have to pay me at 3 months wages at least, after that my Union benefit kicks in and I'd get 80% of my wages for a year or so while looking for new employment.
Could I be making more money somewhere else? Probably, but I feel that security is more important than some extra spending money.
I have always been a bit afraid of continuously searching for new work while working because those companies can call and ask your current boss about you.
It also helps that I live in Finland where the situation is about the same as mentioned above by Rahvar. Firing an employee is expensive (for the company) here.
It also helps that I live in Finland where the situation is about the same as mentioned above by Rahvar. Firing an employee is expensive (for the company) here.
CreepingFear
Member
Don't be. Unless your company is looking to get rid of you, it's much easier for them to give you an offer to retain you then it is to have to go through the expensive process of hiring someone new and having them learn the system.
Not saying he should be afraid but if his company has a contract with a union it may very well be that they cannot raise his wages.
My company has to pay everyone in the same position the same basic wages. Raises are calculated on how long you've worked in the industry. If they wanted to raise one person's wages they would have to eaise everyone's. In my case that would be about 30 people.
Suzushiiro
Banned
Yeah, this article comes off as excessively paranoid. I think there's a healthy halfway point you can take between "assume your company is constantly conspiring to fuck you over and be prepared to fuck them in turn at any point" and "assume you will be happy with your job and your company will be happy with you and always treat you fairly for the rest of your life." In particular the "always be looking for another job" thing is a little excessive- if you're unhappy or otherwise think you're going to want/have to leave soon, sure, but ideally you don't be in that state all the time.
That said, I'd imagine a lot of it depends on what sort of company you work for and the nature of the work you do. A bigger company is probably going to be more likely to treat you like a cog in a machine than a smaller one, and you'll be seen as less easily replaceable if you're in a position that requires a lot of knowledge/experience to be good at (particularly if that knowledge/experience is particular to the company itself) than if you're doing a job that any remotely competent person could get good at in a day or two.
That said, I'd imagine a lot of it depends on what sort of company you work for and the nature of the work you do. A bigger company is probably going to be more likely to treat you like a cog in a machine than a smaller one, and you'll be seen as less easily replaceable if you're in a position that requires a lot of knowledge/experience to be good at (particularly if that knowledge/experience is particular to the company itself) than if you're doing a job that any remotely competent person could get good at in a day or two.
this is one of the more important lessons i've learned from my time in the workforce
i work at a great place now, but prior to this i had some shitty fucking jobs managed by some shitty fucking people. which brings me to this: unless you have something to gain by quitting a job amicably -- e.g. you want to use said employer as a reference or otherwise want to stay connected with them (because they're nice people or something) -- you should not have ANY reservations about fucking over a business
for instance: your boss is a dick and you've received a new job offer? don't even bother putting in notice. it's incredibly unlikely that they would return the favor
i work at a great place now, but prior to this i had some shitty fucking jobs managed by some shitty fucking people. which brings me to this: unless you have something to gain by quitting a job amicably -- e.g. you want to use said employer as a reference or otherwise want to stay connected with them (because they're nice people or something) -- you should not have ANY reservations about fucking over a business
for instance: your boss is a dick and you've received a new job offer? don't even bother putting in notice. it's incredibly unlikely that they would return the favor
Learned this shit early on and refuse to play the game. If an employer is going to fuck with me or starts fucking me, I bail. I make sure to live a frugal lifestyle and keep my occupation's license up to date so I am employable. It's been fairly easy for me to find a new job- always with better pay/benefits- every time. Only at the start of my career did I have any gaps in between jobs- and even then just a couple months. The key is to make sure you set yourself up so you don't have to deal with being fucked with.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
My experiences are contradictory to the HR bit in the article however I have only really worked in non-profit sector thus far so I assume it's a different culture.
victreeb3l
Member
Speaking of "HR is there to protect the company", here's this story about an ex-Uber engineer that's making the rounds on Twitter. She was harassed by her manager and dealt with rampant misogyny in the company and HR did fuck all to help.
https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber
The whole thing is horrifying and worth a read.
https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber
The whole thing is horrifying and worth a read.
I've worked for non-profits and no it's not, but I suppose it depends on what kind of non-profit.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
This was one of the harshest lessons I had to learn going into the working world. Up until my early 20's I had never had a real working relationship with colleagues or bosses or any of that, so I went in treating everybody like my friends. I didn't figure out until well into my internship (student teaching, sort of different but not really) that the work environment changes the way people act entirely.
I do think this article is a bit paranoid, but yeah, most companies don't care about you. They care about what you can do for them. They're giving you money though so it usually goes both ways.
I do think this article is a bit paranoid, but yeah, most companies don't care about you. They care about what you can do for them. They're giving you money though so it usually goes both ways.
Earthbound64
Banned
The company I worked for - and, more directly, the GM at my store - literally saved my life.
So, broad-brush statements and all that.
So, broad-brush statements and all that.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Never forget the golden rules:
- HR is not your friend
- No one has your best interests at heart but you
- Do such great work that they can't ignore you
- Always ask for more
Companies will just bleed you dry and expect you to take it....that's what I have learnt, even working hard won't get you ahead when there is so much politics
So now I work my hours and nothing else, take my pay cheque and look for the next opportunity. In some ways it's kind of relief not giving a shit any more
So now I work my hours and nothing else, take my pay cheque and look for the next opportunity. In some ways it's kind of relief not giving a shit any more
Silent Chief
Member
CEO are usually sent off with huge bonus, non compete clauses, stock options, etc..
Random Painted HIghway
Member
There is a world of difference between expecting blind loyalty and expecting someone to last beyond an initial probationary/training period. In my work, employees require 6 months to a year before they are actually productive contributors due to a highly niche specialization and we expect a bit more stability out of candidates.
FUBAR McDangles
Member
As a guy who works in HR... I hope i never become as bad as the scrubs so many of you have apparently ever dealt with. I understand HR can suck but some pretty broad strokes are being painted by a lot ITT and it kinda sucks.
I will say this: if you came to my company looking for work and you have already left two jobs in the last 365 days you better have a darn good reason or I'm gonna skip you and go to the next candidate. I understand some companies suck and you might want to move on, but there has to be some examples of longevity in your work history before I am willing to go through the process of hiring and training you. That shit is expensive and time consuming and if I have the inkling that you are going to dip out in a couple months, im not going to do it.
Most people should be able to understand that. Some probably wont. Honestly not my problem. That is a hiring philosophy that i will stand by for my entire career.
I will say this: if you came to my company looking for work and you have already left two jobs in the last 365 days you better have a darn good reason or I'm gonna skip you and go to the next candidate. I understand some companies suck and you might want to move on, but there has to be some examples of longevity in your work history before I am willing to go through the process of hiring and training you. That shit is expensive and time consuming and if I have the inkling that you are going to dip out in a couple months, im not going to do it.
Most people should be able to understand that. Some probably wont. Honestly not my problem. That is a hiring philosophy that i will stand by for my entire career.
A year or two ago my company lost an employee, and immediately tried to replace him. We hired this guy who went through the usual honeymoon period of being "the new guy." Eventually after a few months it started to become apparent that he was not making much of an effort to not be The New Guy(TM) anymore. Every answer to every question was "ah shucks, I dunno I'm so new!." After we finally started pushing him to actually start producing he put in his resignation, right before his first performance review.
He soaked us for 9 months worth of paychecks. His Linked in profile shows him with about 15 years of experience, but about 17 companies. 9 months here, 13 months there, 5 months at the next place.
I can understand why employers are leery of job hoppers. They are absolutely not leery of people who have proven results, but like to move onto the next challenge.
Earthbound64
Banned
I'm sorry that was the case for you.
It's not the case for everyone / everywhere, though.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
This is why it's so important to get a job for the government.
The lack of at-will employment and the presence of legitimate grievance systems cuts out so much bullshit
The lack of at-will employment and the presence of legitimate grievance systems cuts out so much bullshit
Eh. I strongly disagree here. I think everybody should be paid what they're worth. I don't think people should be paid more than they're worth because they're a protected class.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
So you think it's acceptable that women who are sexually harassed in the workplace are unable to report it due to fear of retaliation?
What about the person who can't attend the company holiday party with their SO because they know that their boss is a homophobe?
Or the person who gets a major illness but can't use the PTO that is part of their benefit package for fear of being canned in response?
At-will employment is a scourge that completely undermines equality and civil rights in the workplace.
That really has nothing to do with anything I said.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's insanity to me. I would never do that unless I'm actively wanting to quit or the company is in clear trouble (which I did before of course). If I'm relatively stable, I won't waste my time job searching every goddamn day. 30 minutes a day?? That's huge. I want my lunch breaks to be relaxing, not more work for no real payoff.
Yeah that is reasonable, I'd do the same if I were you. That said that other article mentioned 18-24 months as being too short a period and called people working those durations "job hoppers" which is a bit ridiculous, at least for someone under 35-40 working in IT.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
It absolutely does.
Over half of all EEOC complaints include a charge of retaliation from the employer.
Employees in the private sector who have zero rights and protections can't raise issues and concerns with management (even when they are as serious as sexual harassment or racial discrimination) without fear of losing their job. To me that is unacceptable.
I don't know, I feel The small company I work for cares about me because we are like 4 people and the boss is really well off that he rarely comes to office, but he pays us in time, even when the company is in pickle. Although dealing with the invoices from sub-contractors and consultant does our head in when we are broke.
Putting aside your ridiculous hyperbole, I guess I was focusing on the importance of "getting a government" job portion of your comment rather than the "people should have no official grievance" system portion.
Of course people should have recourse for cases of sexual harassment. I just don't agree with the premise of being protected from being laid off.
andythinkpad
Member
Isn't that obvious. That's why I rather make less and stay in the union.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
This whole thread is about your employer not being your friend and that people should take their employment into their own hands. The comment that you replied directly after was about a company using you us and spitting you out. For some completely uncalled for reason you've decided to make this about whether or not woman can be sexually harassed by an employer, and I happen to be the lucky guy who gets to be your straw man villain.
Try to pay attention and stay on topic.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
I also work for government, it is great when you have a union standing behind you, you truly feel protected. You can still get fire/layoff, but it will be for a just reason.
Mammoth Jones
Member
All I can say is demand your worth and document everything.
That really struck me as well. I've always read that 18 months is a safe time to start looking for another job without looking like a flake, while giving you enough time to actually contribute at work and gain new skills.
I'm in my early thirties and am on my second "real" job, third if you count my paid internship. I was with my last two companies for 3 years and 2.5 years, and am now back at the first one again for a little over a year. It was a great way to gain skills, increase my pay, and move into more senior positions without waiting for years and hoping something would come my way.
I'm going to wait at least another year before I start searching again, but by that time I may be at a point in my life where I want to hang around for 5 years or so if it's a good fit. I just can't imagine being a lifer anywhere.. unless it's somewhere like the VA which offers great benefits.
CreepingFear
Member
What do you mean document everything? Like projects that you were involved in?
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
There really isn't. Also trial or training periods are crap too. Hope you can work super hard with an axe over your head. Both employee and employer are taking a risk. Things don't work. Holding that against some one? Disturbing thought.
I just can't help but be so incredibly paranoid after getting fucked any chance the company line could allow. They loved striking out my name in red ink. Actual smiles. I didn't deserve any of that.
BadenBadenLily
Banned
My initial post was about how working in government enables you to not have to worry about a lot of these things, because you actually have rights and protections compared to the private sector where you have nothing. You don't have to worry about retaliation because the union has your back, so if there is a serious problem you actually feel comfortable addressing it to management.
You defended at-will employment. I pointed out how at will employment handcuffs the ability of civil rights legislation to prevent discrimination, and you haven't even attempted to refute that, instead you just chose to play the victim.
Yeah, as a person who needs healthcare unions are great. Also just being able to talk to other people about work in a candid manner, not having to tiptoe around that worker/management line.
At will employment only exists because of a long historical cycle of exploitation in conservative law-making. Collective bargaining is something that has far more power, but without a union to organize it there's always going to be difficulty in establishing terms of employment. Not saying unions are perfect, but they're infinitely better than at will employment. Saying this as a person who has experienced both.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I have drinks with the CEO every now and then. The company I work for is as much of a friend as a regular drinking buddy is.
Why would the company be your friend? Such a strange assumption. It's a buyer-seller relation. You sell hours to your company. When you buy groceries, you're not friends with the store. But if the store is good, and you behave, you will keep shopping there and they will want you there.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Just email everything as much as possible. It's amazing how people forget stuff when shit hits the fan.
The inherent problem with this is that it creates an extremely adversarial relationship and while I think competition is good, competitions also have rules for a reason. Having a boss that can fire you for any or no reason at all (and letting them dictate all the rules) does not promote a good working relationship, or any working relationship. If anything it encourages you to actively obfuscate and lie to inflate yourself and your work. That doesn't seem like healthy behavior and if at will employment is encouraging that, it seems like a problem, one that is isn't resolvable without changing the relationship itself. Unions change that relationship.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
This can't be over stated. I'm working at a few job sites right now, one of them I like the culture and am trying to get hired on inhouse. I made sure to make a good impression, say hi to everyone, make sure people know my name, my face, and that I'm "that friendly guy with the contractor."
I applied and interviewed, but didn't get the job. I saw one of the people who interviewed me the other day, he went out of his way to say to me "this is why you didn't get the job, this is what we want to hear in the interview, apply again." He even said if I had free time on site he'd do a mock interview with me to help make sure I get the job.
They want certs and licenses for certain job duties, there's another employee that is trying to get a license to get the promotion he wants. I mentioned that I'd like to do that work too and he offered to study with me. Another employee told me about a position that's usually open only to people who already work there, but that they've got a rare opening that's open to the public, this so that I have a chance to apply for something that they're not going to advertise or publicize heavily because they want an in house body to fill the slot if they can get it.
Personal connections are the best advantage you can have at work.
Yeah, this is the other thing. Most jobs people get are based on who you know, not what you know.
MWS Natural
Member
EXACTLY. You can almost tell the ages of posters by their responses. Great article and I've found all of these points to be true. I have 0 loyalty to any company or corporation outside of my own.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
That's why I said he is also right. But he's a fucking idiot for stating that I or anyone should put the company first and then themselves when the company never comes close to putting employees over the company. And it never comes close to other than exceptional cases.
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