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The Dark Sorcerer and Panta Rhei PS4 demos look like CGI, will games look as good?

K

KKRT00

Member
BigTnaples said:
The Division, while mind blowing to look at, really wont be that hard to achieve graphically IMO.



After watching the video multiple times, it isn't really doing anything super taxing. It just has a nice lighting engine, bokeh DoF, fairly high resolution textures, and some nice effects like smoke and cloth physics. It all comes together very nicely though.


The main reason being the attention to detail. Reminds me of the last of us really. How there is clutter everywhere, and all of the assets are seemingly unique. The world does not feel copy and pasted.


I think if The Last of Us was a native PS4 game, it would blow away the division. The attention to detail and design of the world is like nothing I have ever seen. It it only held back by the hardware in that all of the varied textures and assets that ND created for The Last of Us had to run on PS3. So you get thousands of unique objects, posters, materials, etc, but they are all fairly low resolution.


Imagine TLoU rereleased on PS4 with the original HD textures (assuming ND made them that way), 1080p, 60 fps, with some Bokeh and cloth physics. It would compete very well with Division visually (although The Division is open world) and that would just be a touched up PS3 game.


A theoretical ground up PS4 TLoU would blow everything we have seen out of the water.
Click to expand...
Division is doing much more stuff than TLoU, good screen space reflection, volumetric lighting, all lights casting shadows, lit particles, very high quality shaders.

TLoU would have to upgrade almost everything to compete in even field [textures, geometry, LoD, lighting, tessellation, shadowing, post effects, particles which are bad in TLoU] and add resolution to this, thats not cheap stuff. Geometry in TLoU is very poor most of the time.

You can even see how much most of this stuff cost if You compare Crysis 3 from consoles to different settings on PC.
 
F

filopilo

Member
repost since no reactions

BMq-eLYCEAA0qXA.jpg:large
 
D

dragonbane

Member
Jira said:
The important thing to remember about The Dark Sorcerer is they're using all of the PS4 to render this without much if any resources being taken up outside of JUST rendering that room and everything inside of it. Once you start to actually throw in everything that makes up a game (AI, logic, sound, levels, animation, scripting, etc) what you can do graphically will diminish due to less processing power.
Click to expand...
They don't. They want to achieve these kind of graphics in their full game, so they would be dumb to use all the console power in their target tech demo. Their track record speaks for itself.
When you look at the Kara tech demo, are you sure this demo uses all the resources of the PS3? Probably not, because Beyond looks even better in bigger environments. They said that the Sorcerer only uses half the RAM, the scene is not optimized at all and most features of the engine aren't even implemented yet. Naughty Dog and Quantic Dream most likely will pull these graphics off.



derFeef said:
The Order and Quantum Break impressed me more because you could actually see a bit of a game there.
Click to expand...
But we don't know how the game actually looks during gameplay?



Haunted said:
At least no one has posted those super unflattering Beyond screenshots yet.
Click to expand...
Which ones? The only one I saw is a still from a high speed action scene, where the environment is obviously not very detailed, because players don't pay attention anyway. Every game does this. Rest looks fine.
 
R

Randdalf

Member
I think the Dark Sorcerer demo, whilst impressive, is slightly disingenuous, because they're allowed to use tricks that video games can't use in practice. Like just not having any geometry behind the camera, for instance, to reduce memory usage. Or being able to only use a limited set of high quality assets. Or having a really small level, specifically designed for this movie. Or being able to focus the camera on impressive looking elements such as the sorcerer, whilst using lower quality assets for the background and other elements. It's an impressive demo for sure, but it's sort of "cheating", imo.
 
N

nelsonroyale

Member
Randdalf said:
I think the Dark Sorcerer demo, whilst impressive, is slightly disingenuous, because they're allowed to use tricks that video games can't use in practice. Like just not having any geometry behind the camera, for instance, to reduce memory usage. Or being able to only use a limited set of high quality assets. Or having a really small level, specifically designed for this movie. Or being able to focus the camera on impressive looking elements such as the sorcerer, whilst using lower quality assets for the background and other elements. It's an impressive demo for sure, but it's sort of "cheating", imo.
Click to expand...

Umm, you mention those scenarios, but where is your proof. The small scene is the only one which we can tell holds water. The other stuff, well they zoom in on aspects of the environment in the dev walkthough and it looks good.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
Randdalf said:
I think the Dark Sorcerer demo, whilst impressive, is slightly disingenuous, because they're allowed to use tricks that video games can't use in practice. Like just not having any geometry behind the camera, for instance, to reduce memory usage. Or being able to only use a limited set of high quality assets. Or having a really small level, specifically designed for this movie. Or being able to focus the camera on impressive looking elements such as the sorcerer, whilst using lower quality assets for the background and other elements. It's an impressive demo for sure, but it's sort of "cheating", imo.
Click to expand...

You just described what a tech demo is :)
 
R

Randdalf

Member
nelsonroyale said:
Umm, you mention those scenarios, but where is your proof. The small scene is the only one which we can tell holds water. The other stuff, well they zoom in on aspects of the environment in the dev walkthough and it looks good.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what they are actually doing, but the very nature of the demo allows them to use those sort of techniques to make it run at a good frame rate. I very much doubt we'll get super intense action games, for instance, that look that good on the PS4. Quantic Dream will probably be able to use it to make the kind of adventure games they make, but for other genres it doesn't really work so well.

As zoukka says, it's a really good tech demo, but it's not representative of what the large majority of PS4 games are going to look like.
 
Portugeezer

Portugeezer

Member
TucoBenedictoPacifico said:
I surely hope that isn't going to be the level of detail and fidelity they are generally aiming for, because in most cases that would mean sticking to games that are four hours long, strict as corridors, over-scripted and cost 200 millions to produce.
Click to expand...

Some games will have the budget/talent to do so and I am interested to see them.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
QD has surpassed every tech demo they've released with the game that it was the test for so I have faith in them, especially since Dark Sorcerer wasn't even running on final hardware. QD's games are a special case but I feel like they can do it. I expect teams like Naughty Dog and SSM to put out games that look very similar to Deep Down.
 
D

dragonbane

Member
Randdalf said:
I have no idea what they are actually doing, but the very nature of the demo allows them to use those sort of techniques to make it run at a good frame rate. I very much doubt we'll get super intense action games, for instance, that look that good on the PS4. Quantic Dream will probably be able to use it to make the kind of adventure games they make, but for other genres it doesn't really work so well.

As zoukka says, it's a really good tech demo, but it's not representative of what the large majority of PS4 games are going to look like.
Click to expand...
Well their tech demos on PS3 fit the same criteria, yet they were surpassed not only by Quantic Dream, but by Naughty Dog as well in their respective games on PS3. I'm not sure why the same can't happen on PS4, they already stated that this tech demo is unoptimized, only half the features of the engine are implemented and it was running on old PS4 devkits with only 4 GB RAM available. And if you implement a proper streaming solution, it almost doesn't mater if there is something behind the camera or not. The developer video proofed that this is real. By the way it also renders both sets at the same time, because the switch happens in real time as well.
 
S

ShamePain

Banned
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
 
V

VanWinkle

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

This is honestly one of the dumber things I've ever read on here.
 
N

nib95

Banned
I'm confident that in 2-3 years next gen games will look that good. At least the character/narrative orientated ones that pump a lot of resources in to the characters and realism etc.
 
K

Kyon

Banned
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

i seriously cant anymore...
 
F

Forceatowulf

G***n S**n*bi
I can't speak on Capcom and their history with tech demos. But Quantic Dreams' history is rock fucking solid.

I would never bet against that team when it comes to high quality graphics...
 
S

StoopKid

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

original.gif
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Leucrota said:
I actually can't believe what I am about to say: the actual game looks better than that tech demo.

Most current 360 games look better than that as well. This excites me so much for next gen...
Click to expand...

That's the point. Look at the FFVII remake PS3 tech demo. Lots of PS3 stuff is out now that looks better. Most of these tech demos are not overshooting things wildly like people seem to think.

Final-Fantasy-7-Remake-Scan.jpg
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
Shinta said:
That's the point. Look at the FFVII remake PS3 tech demo. Lots of PS3 stuff is out now that looks better. Most of these tech demos are not overshooting things wildly like people seem to think.

Final-Fantasy-7-Remake-Scan.jpg
Click to expand...

Till this day, go F*** YOURSELF, SQUARE ENIX, you goddamn blueball causing sons of bitches!
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Yeah, and it looks wildly fantastic.

But moreover, I'm just stoked by the implications this level of graphics will have with VR in the not too distant future.

In a few years, real time visualization and interaction technology will be ubiquitous to computing - and the idea that this is all games technology will be a distant thing of the past.
 
D

dragonbane

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...
So much wrong with this post, it is not even funny. The devil character beats Quantum Break's characters quite nicely. Facial animations are superior as well. Not considering the fact that this demo actually renders strands of hair, which the PS3 likely can't do. Clothing, skin shader and eye shader are also better than QB and not really possible on PS3. I'm not even beginning to talk about bokeh, DoF, screen resolution and texture resolution.

And we have definitive proof that this demo runs in real time. For QB we know that it is in-engine, which can mean everything.
 
R

Raist

Banned
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

2.5! 25% more than QB!!1!

The_Dark_Sorcerer.jpeg


I'm also wondering how this is "poorly detailed".
 
C

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
it will depend upon the genre. I really doubt we would see that level of detail in a graphically intensive open world, for instance

that wizard looks like the late David Carradine
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

ibugGE1VRbIIeL.gif


No.
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
Damn, I thought the Quantum Break trailer was CGI (if it's not then it's scripted as hell). I'm impressed!

It's still miles below The Dark Sorcerer in terms of performance capture, though.
 
H

haikira

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

I think your obvious high level of insight and intelligence on this subject matter would be better suited on a board like Gamefaqs, as I think it'll be wasted on lowly folk like ourselves.
 
F

Frodo

Member
Randdalf said:
I think the Dark Sorcerer demo, whilst impressive, is slightly disingenuous, because they're allowed to use tricks that video games can't use in practice. Like just not having any geometry behind the camera, for instance, to reduce memory usage. Or being able to only use a limited set of high quality assets. Or having a really small level, specifically designed for this movie. Or being able to focus the camera on impressive looking elements such as the sorcerer, whilst using lower quality assets for the background and other elements. It's an impressive demo for sure, but it's sort of "cheating", imo.
Click to expand...

Thanks for summing this up. I feel exactly like this.
Background, because of DOF is all blurry and low detailed. I keep imagining, how would this work in a environment where the player can control the camera, or move around...

It looks good, but I can not imagine how would this work in a game. Fixed camera angles? Any other alternatives?
 
L

littlebirdtoldme

Banned
dragonbane said:
Games from Quantic Dream will look this good. And not only by them, but also by Naughty Dog and other talented developers.
People didn't believe The Casting and also doubted Kara. Beyond doesn't only look much better than that, The Last of Us does too. And that game is a TPS.

Quantic Dream WILL match that. They don't spend money on tech demos to bullshit people. They literally create them to see what's possible and to set their own goals accordingly. This obviously means they didn't use nearly all the available power and the RAM of the PS4.


Their track record speaks for itself. Just gonna leave this here again:

Evolution of Quantic Dream's technology since 2006:


2006 ("The Casting" Tech Demo on PS3)


2010 (Heavy Rain Game on PS3)




2011 ("Kara" Tech Demo on PS3)


2013 (Beyond Game on PS3)




2013 ("Old Man" Tech Demo on PS4)


2013 ("The Dark Sorcerer" Tech Demo on PS4; YouTube compressed footage)




2014/2015/2016 (???)



Click to enlarge. No bullshots. All direct feed (except for Sorcerer atm) and realtime.
Click to expand...

simply amazing.
 
V

vio

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...

33S3j9H.gif
 
Q

qa_engineer

Member
ShamePain said:
Quantum Break looks like CG, but Sam Lake said it ran on xbone devkit. If true then consider me impressed. Dark Sorcerer shows 1.5 characters and a poorly detailed scene, I see nothing impossible there. A PS3 could run that scene without the particles.
Click to expand...


1.5 characters? If you actually watched the full 12 minute video you would've seen they spawned in an additional 7-10 characters in the background all individually animated.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqeuHGESZBA
 
P

Pound_lb003

Member
I'd also say the difference between tech demo's this generation and last generation are that everyone was targetting the PS3, as it was expected to be a success. And they were targetting what they THOUGHT would be possible.

This generation, the objective is clearer because engineers have a MUCH better idea of the power of these PC-like machines.

And achieving the results will also be easier because of the more familiar dev-environment.

We won't have KZ2-esque overestimations ever again.
 
C

Chao

Member
The one thing that spoiled the dark sorcerer demo for me was the goblin.
It was so obvious it was a slightly modified green human face that it broke the illusion completely.

Amazing tech demo, but the goblin was really bad
 
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