Support NeoGAF

[TylerDurden4321]

and respect your opponents.

They sure as hell won't respect you, or keep a human like pace through the bends. Meaning they will often slam into the back of you and punt you off. Or jump on the brakes way too hard at unexpected times causing you to slam into the back of them.

having raced with GHG in ForzaGAF, that's super funny. xD
no hard feelings, I was pissed for a few minutes back then, but it's all in good fun. I tackled you back once too (more by accident though):

 

[skyfinch]

Love both these features. I don't see why people hate it so much. It's not like people are using rewind in online races. lol If I'm playing my single player career what difference does it make that I used rewind once with braking lines on? Maybe we should take pausing the game out too. For immersions sake.

Same with a button press to look behind your car to see where to competition is. This doesn't happen in real life.

 

[Mohasus]

It's not much of a coincidence that 3 franchises that became huge before the option existed remained huge, no.

But how they became huge in the first place? According to this thread, the racing genre couldn't have games that sold more than 10 million copies without rewind.

 

[CrazyShady]

Rewind and the racing line are imperfect solutions to a larger problem in racing game design: blending sim-style racing with arcade-style mechanics.

That's why you don't see often those features in arcade racers (like Mario Kart and whatnot). You see them in hybrid racers (Forza) and in some more sim-like racers (including the surprisingly excellent F1 2016). I liked the more reserved use of the driving line in older Gran Turismo games where the driving line was used in the license tests as a training tool rather than an in-race crutch. But maybe with Codemasters sticking to their guns with Dirt Rally and expecting more of players, we'll see more racing games forego those design crutches.

In other words, Dirt Rally is the Dark Souls of racing games.

I'd love if all new racing games came with an optional License-type mode ala the older Gran Turismo games. They're basically what got me into racing. Requiring to get to a certain license for specific races may be a bit much in todays gaming climate, but there was no better feeling.

 

[Synth]

But how they became huge in the first place? According to this thread, the racing genre couldn't have games that sold more than 10 million copies without rewind.

That's like asking how any game became huge before we had saves. It's a nonsense point. It has nothing to do with whether or not the feature is good. There's nothing to indicate that all three wouldn't have sold more with rewind available.

 

[Manzoon]

I've played mostly arcade racers my whole life, the likes of F-Zero, Mario Kart, Wipeout, Rush 2049. I got into Forza 3 on the 360 specifically because of the racing aids. I gradually turned them all off, went to manual transmission on a controller, and loved the progression of getting better at the game. I would have never bought the game if these features weren't in there.

Rewind is a fine single player crutch, rewarding players for not using it seems a sensible way of countering it's abuse. Also worth noting is that these guides and features help people with physical disabilities experience these games.

 

[Kill3r7]

Both should be optional. For a genre that is shedding users left and right it might makes sense to appeal to as many people as possible.

 

[User123456]

You know what finally got me to turn off the racing line? VR.

I can't judge depth (and thus braking distance) for shit in the low angle of vision a cockpit view gives. Depth perception is absolutely essential and I don't find a higher external camera or repeating until I memorize every turn to be acceptable substitutes.

VR made me a better driver in every game within hours.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Try Driveclub and getting all gold in the DLC tours. No lines, no rewinds, no mistakes allowed. Just race till you get it right. Sublime.

The problem with Driveclub is that it's far too easy anyway.

As for the topic, I think it's good to have them as options. As much as I hate the mandatory "EVERYTHING ENABLED FUCK YOU" intro race in Forza games, it serves a purpose for those who aren't as racing-game-religious as me. I think the focus should be on trying to wean people off them, like how Forza urges you to up the difficulty after a winning streak.

I think stuff like that would be best, use telemetry of some kind to figure out what they're improving in (ie. if they're showing signs of braking smoothly, the game knows that ABS might be unnecessary) and start nagging them to turn it off.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Both should be optional. For a genre that is shedding users left and right it might makes sense to appeal to as many people as possible.

But then what would sim racers use to laugh and belittle others who aren't as hardcore as them?

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Both are optional, if you don't like them turn them off.

Hell, with rewinds, you don't even have to turn anything off. I've literally never touched the rewind button in Forza. It's not that hard to just avoid it.

 

[PeterGAF]

I am going to turn rewind on in Forza Horizon and use it every time I make a mistake. I hope every time I hit the "y" button you all get sick to your stomachs. Fear me.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I am going to turn rewind on in Forza Horizon and use it every time I make a mistake. I hope every time I hit the "y" button you all get sick to your stomachs. Fear me.

Go for it, cowboy, you got my full support.

 

[Synth]

I am going to turn rewind on in Forza Horizon and use it every time I make a mistake. I hope every time I hit the "y" button you all get sick to your stomachs. Fear me.

I'm gonna go rewind my way through Battletoads.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I'm gonna go rewind my way through Battletoads.

I'm gonna rewind through Dark Souls, I'll get the ire of both the sim racing community and Soulsborne fans!

 

[deadscreensky]

Rewind is brilliant when you're trying to get the hang of a particularly tricky turn. Saves a huge amount of time if you can practice that section over and over without having to go round the rest of the track.

I bet there are also a ton of racing game fans that would never have got into the genre without driving lines there to help ease into it.

I don't get the hate for what are strictly optional aids, the games aren't designed completely around them and using the rewind button marks it down as a dirty lap on Forza leaderboards. It's such a harmless thing to get annoyed by.

Yeah, I mostly use rewind to practice and experiment on difficult track situations. It doesn't have any impact on real competitive play (solo or multiplayer), and as you become a better racer you'll organically use it less anyway, so who cares?

 

[TylerDurden4321]

You know what finally got me to turn off the racing line? VR.

I can't judge depth (and thus braking distance) for shit in the low angle of vision a cockpit view gives. Depth perception is absolutely essential and I don't find a higher external camera or repeating until I memorize every turn to be acceptable substitutes.

VR made me a better driver in every game within hours.

yeah, die very racing game needs FOV options. Your TV must be a window into the virtual world where 100m distance looks as far away as 100m in the real world. Problem is that the correct(calculated) FOV looks really slow if you don't put the TV right in your face and have a big TV (that's why people have triple screen setup, the sense of speed isn't lost then, because you see it in your periphersl vision).
Whic is still not right in VR, because your peripheral vision is so impaired. Real race drivers don't really move their head, they just move their eyes around a lot (there were some analysis videos with one driver... who was it? Alonso? Need to look it up)

 

[Smax]

The problem with Driveclub is that it's far too easy anyway.

Nah, Driveclub is that rare game where it's default mode is perfectly balanced difficulty. It's absolutely not easy and certainly not too hard. You will not get gold in your first try in most events, but if you give it some effort you don't need insane skill or dedication to master it.

The finished, patched and polished version that exists today is the perfect and best arcade racer ever made. Such a tragedy we'll never get a sequel.

 

[TheSeks]

It's a problem.

The problem isn't the features. The problem is that the visual/virtual feedback of your virtual car is very poor. I can roll up to a corner at 80 and think I can go around it due to the FoV in the game, when the game wants you to hit it at 50. Who's fault is that?

 

[mujun]

i go back and fourth with it.

i like horizon 3's approach. if i want them on its on if i want them off i get a bonus

This all the way.

At least some segment of people who play racing games want them and it doesn't affect those who don't if they can turn them off in the settings.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Nah, Driveclub is that rare game where it's default mode is perfectly balanced difficulty. It's absolutely not easy and certainly not too hard. You will not get gold in your first try in most events, but if you give it some effort you don't need insane skill or dedication to master it.

The only events out of the whole game + season pass tours that I struggled with were the hotlap with the Hennessey and the oen where you do 12 laps in India. The rest I can't even really remember, but two harder events out of hundreds of too-easy ones isn't really balanced IMO.

 

[Curufinwe]

The only events out of the whole game + season pass tours that I struggled with were the hotlap with the Hennessey and the oen where you do 12 laps in India. The rest I can't even really remember, but two harder events out of hundreds of too-easy ones isn't really balanced IMO.

Look at the completion percentages for those tours. They are not high.

DC was hard enough they added an easier difficulty. Your experiences are atypical.

 

[dLMN8R]

There is no shame in finishing last while you are still learning. It's more a fault in the games design that you have to finish first (or is it too 3 these days?) in order to be able to progress at all. That's not how it should work.

It's not just finishing last. It's also about interactions with other cars on the track.

If you want to learn how to take turns and also handle other cars on the track, then you need to be in a situation where those other cars are still near you and giving you the opportunity to react to them.

Rewind enables this.

If you don't like rewind, then disable it, and revel in the bonus points.

 

[mclem]

Both are *excellent* teaching tools; the racing line makes it easier to visualise the speed applied to a given corner, and the rewind allows repeat attempts until you get it right. It's a tough call to make - I recognise that it's a problem if it becomes a crutch, but you really can't underestimate how *useful* they are to allow the player the opportunity to learn and improve.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Both are *excellent* teaching tools; the racing line makes it easier to visualise the speed applied to a given corner, and the rewind allows repeat attempts until you get it right. It's a tough call to make - I recognise that it's a problem if it becomes a crutch, but you really can't underestimate how *useful* they are to allow the player the opportunity to learn and improve.

Yeah... I would have loved for Driveclub to have a training mode where you could use Rewind indefinitely to practice different corners over and over again.

Not a fan of it in main modes, but it's a great training tool.

And it's no different than 'training maps' that just feature 1-2 corners of a track.

In fact, Rewind may be more efficient design than that. Why clutter up training options with 1 track broken up into 2-4 training tracks that feature different corners (selected and designed by the devs) when you could just let players choose the entire track, and Rewind over and over whatever segment of the track they want.

Used correctly, it's not much different than many other training maps, and it's more efficient design IMO too.

 

[letmetrythisname]

Rewinds and racing lines can leave and stay gone. Racing sim devs should never have buckled down to the cries of incompetent critics and audiences.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Rewinds and racing lines can leave and stay gone. Racing sim devs should never have buckled down to the cries of incompetent critics and audiences.

Wow, you couldn't have sounded more elitist if you tried. Incompetent? smh.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Wow, you couldn't have sounded more elitist if you tried. Incompetent? smh.

I always wish I could find the hardcore guys' racing on youtube... and sometimes I do and they are usually slow and reckless, like they don't get basic stuff slow-in/fast-out or managing their throttle and brake inputs in regards to the friction circle and their steering input. They usually love GT3 cars - that's at least my experience.

 

[Atomski]

Rewinding is fine as long as it is limited per race.

I don't think it's a big deal, your times should just not count.

 

[Neo 007]

Using rewind or racing lines MAKES you a bad driver...period!!!

 

[KRaZyAmmo]

I know Grid 1 introduced rewind to the racing games. But at least it was limited in the actual race.

 

[ElNino]

I don't think it's a big deal, your times should just not count.

Which is the way it has worked in Forza at least. You can use it all you want in single player races in order to place as high as you can, but none of your lap times will be ahead of anyone who had a single clean lap. And obviously you can never use it online.

 

[Zushin]

I use the rewind in Forza Horizon because I'm too weak willed to turn it off I wish it didn't exist though, just feels like cheating.

 

[kyser73]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Yup.

At a push have driving lines in a training/practice mode, or have an actual driving school like GT.

Rewind can die in a fire though.

 

[DJ Gunner]

The idea that driving lines and rewind are somehow responsible for declining sales of these games is laughable. There is simply a limit, imo, to how many times over the years you can enjoy ten laps of Laguna Seca in GT cars before you're just not rushing out to buy the next installment to do the exact same thing with prettier cars and a (sometimes) better handling model. I remember playing GT3 to completion back in 01-02, and after I was done I had zero desire to do it all over again in GT4. I finally jumped back in for FM3, got 1000/1000- and then was floored when 4 came out just two years later. Had to make myself buy it so I could play with buddies but the game was nearly indistinguishable from 3 for me.

I realize I'm only speaking of my own experiences, but more accessibility OPTIONS that can be turned off and not used aren't pushing people away from racing games. Personally? Have never used driving lines nor rewind except in GRID when I totaled my car a few times and I agree that these things do not tend to make a person a better racer. But the point of making games is to sell them, and you are going to sell more with the options than without- not the other way around.

 

[QaaQer]

Not understanding the hate for rewind. It's a completely optional single player feature, you don't have to use it. If a game has long load times its preferable to restarting a race.

Should platformers or fighting games have rewind features? Games of skill require unavoidable skill checks otherwise they are not games of skill.

 

[QaaQer]

The idea that driving lines and rewind are somehow responsible for declining sales of these games is laughable. There is simply a limit, imo, to how many times over the years you can enjoy ten laps of Laguna Seca in GT cars before you're just not rushing out to buy the next installment to do the exact same thing with prettier cars and a (sometimes) better handling model. I remember playing GT3 to completion back in 01-02, and after I was done I had zero desire to do it all over again in GT4. I finally jumped back in for FM3, got 1000/1000- and then was floored when 4 came out just two years later. Had to make myself buy it so I could play with buddies but the game was nearly indistinguishable from 3 for me.

I realize I'm only speaking of my own experiences, but more accessibility OPTIONS that can be turned off and not used aren't pushing people away from racing games. Personally? Have never used driving lines nor rewind except in GRID when I totaled my car a few times and I agree that these things do not tend to make a person a better racer. But the point of making games is to sell them, and you are going to sell more with the options than without- not the other way around.

It can compromise the experience the developer is going for if you give players an easy way out. It is the reason not every game has an easy mode or an 'everyone is a winner' mode, like sports or OG Dark Souls.

 

[Head.spawn]

To be honest, I could do without the racing line.. but I get why it's there, judging distance on a flat screen is much harder than it would be in a first person perspective if you were actually in a car, so it's a bit of a crutch for those that don't want to take the time to learn a track. Like I said, I could do without though.

The Rewind though, I like. It's not that I like rewinding every 5 seconds to do something perfect reconstructive surgery race, it's that if it weren't there and I made a big fuck-up, I'd simply reset the race. Once I get a track down and I'm trying to beat records or my own personal best, I will hamper down and keep playing until I do so... in the past, that meant if I didn't hit a corner the right way, crashed, spunout etc etc... I would be resetting the race over and over and over and over. The worst is when you have a race and you're killing it 95% of the track, then you get distracted or whatever.... boom.. reset.

So, if they get rid of rewind, I'd simply be resetting. With slow loading and shit, it is a major pain in the ass and a waste of time.

 

[JayhawkerStL]

I like rewind, and Forza does it perfectly. Use it, and you now have a dirty lap. Don't use it, get a bonus.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Should platformers or fighting games have rewind features? Games of skill require unavoidable skill checks otherwise they are not games of skill.

Good point, let's get rid of checkpoints and quick saves across all genres too.

 

[Crayon]

Rewinding trivializes the concentration aspect. It's for babies.

 

[TakeItSlowDude]

Rewinds and racing lines can leave and stay gone. Racing sim devs should never have buckled down to the cries of incompetent critics and audiences.

Who was crying for these things? They showed up in games organically and only proliferated due to dev's imitating other games.

I think rewind and driving lines should probably be limited to training modes and non leader board time trials. Maybe a limited amount of rewind in early races and driving lines during qualification laps but there should be a break off point where the player is forced to lose the training wheels.

 

[Nirolak]

So looking at your list in the OP, the only series that seem to have changed are Dirt and Gran Turismo Spprt.

The rest of the difference is just from series like GRID and sim-based Need For Speed disappearing, so what's left makes up a larger portion.

 

[mike6467]

Dirt Rally was my GOTY because of this. You had to master the controls, when you didn't you knew where you messed up, and you got better. You ran into a tree and you had to take that corner SUPER slow next time. Eventually you find the right speed.

When you really feel like you can control the car, and you feather the throttle in just the right way to pull out of a tight corner...It's magic, and I don't think you get the same experience with the assists. Then you nail your first run. Then your first in the snow, then your first in RWD. Then your first in a Group B, etc.

Every time you're mastering the mechanics of the car. Then you can tweak them and really understand how it affects the handling. I had a really, really hard time getting into Horizon 3 after playing Dirt Rally for probably 200 hours since early access. Not sure I'll ever see racing games the same after that and hope we see more games with that philosophy.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I like rewinds in Forza Horizon, but always felt weird about them in Forza Motorsport

 

[rrs]

Every time you're mastering the mechanics of the car. Then you can tweak them and really understand how it affects the handling. I had a really, really hard time getting into Horizon 3 after playing Dirt Rally for probably 200 hours since early access. Not sure I'll ever see racing games the same after that and hope we see more games with that philosophy.

I think horizon defaults to a more tame model for steering, and you can run about assistless to kinda get the feeling you are talking about (sadly means nothing online as 4WD eats everything A/B class up and are loads easier to drive)

 

[Synth]

Should platformers or fighting games have rewind features? Games of skill require unavoidable skill checks otherwise they are not games of skill.

That "unavoidable skill check" only needs to be when your skill is being directly compared to that of another human player. So if you rewind, your time can only be above that of another person that rewinds, and obviously you can't rewind in direct head-to-head competition, for obvious reasons.

If you added rewind to Street Fighter, it wouldn't remove the skill from the game... it would just allow those less skilled to enjoy it also on their own terms. Evo wouldn't suddenly be won by a flowchart Ken that rewound his way through the story content... the suggestion that rewind makes a skilled game unskilled is frankly stupid. Forza Motorsport has a rewind function... so run along and set a top 10 time, and then report back to this thread.

to put it a different way, emulators effectively allow you to rewind (or credit feed) any game in existence, but it doesn't make those games any less skilful than the were upon initial release. It's on the player if they choose to challenge themselves to beat it with the restrictions or not. I beat the NES TMNT for the first time in my life last year, having failed to beat it during my childhood. I could have beaten it trivially at any point over the years by using save states to negate any mistakes I made, but I didn't, but I personally wanted the challenge of beating it. Someone else may simply just want to see the rest of the game.

 

[Mechanized]

Forza does it right. You can play with or without it, you get a bonus for not using them. You can disable all kinds of stuff and get way better rewards for doing so.

 

[CouchMaster]

I don't mind them as long as they're optional and give me bonus for not using them, like Forza. They're also immensely helpful in learning new track, I almost always run practice laps on new circuit with rewind on so I can find best braking spot without having to circle back full lap again.

 

[Crayon]

That "unavoidable skill check" only needs to be when your skill is being directly compared to that of another human player. So if you rewind, your time can only be above that of another person that rewinds, and obviously you can't rewind in direct head-to-head competition, for obvious reasons.

If you added rewind to Street Fighter, it wouldn't remove the skill from the game... it would just allow those less skilled to enjoy it also on their own terms. Evo wouldn't suddenly be won by a flowchart Ken that rewound his way through the story content... the suggestion that rewind makes a skilled game unskilled is frankly stupid. Forza Motorsport has a rewind function... so run along and set a top 10 time, and then report back to this thread.

Do you feel like all single player modes and games should have a rewind or just racing games and why?