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[texhnolyze]

An interesting article from Polygon.

Both games may share the same genre with similar gameplay loop, buat at its core they're quite different.

There’s a sense of déjà vu a few weeks into Destiny 2. The endgame meatiness just doesn’t seem to be there. Meanwhile, I’ve been playing the same Warframe character for months with no end in sight.

Can Destiny 2 become the living game that Destiny seemed, to fans, destined to become? The answer may just lie in whether Bungie can learn the lessons of Warframe.

SAME IN LOOT ONLY
Destiny and Warframe have the same gameplay loop at their core. You shoot dudes, get better loot from the dudes and then use that loot to kill increasingly more difficult dudes. It’s the Diablo model, where every action you take is intended to find stuff to make your stats go up. Watching numbers go up in a game is extremely satisfying, as it turns out.

But their approaches to the loot game genre differ drastically.

Destiny 2 is all about the straight up loot grind. The constant drip of new guns and armor is key to its gameplay loop. The first 20 levels are a constant cycle of finding a new gun, dropping the old one, finding yet another one, dropping that last gun and so on. It’s a great way to constantly demand players to test out new gear while showing off every style of weapon the game has to offer.

Warframe has a very different type of grind.

Warframe asks its players to craft gear and level it up much in the same way you’d level any RPG character. That means you’re sticking with that assault rifle right up until you run enough missions and kill enough robots (or Warhammer 40,000-style marines or “Infested” versions of either) to get that particular weapon up to level 30. Every item level increases your account level, in turn making any future weapons slightly easier to level up. You’re also collecting materials to craft more guns and Warframes (effectively classes in Warframe) to level up in the future along the way.

A REWARD FOR EVERY SESSION

I feel like I’m accomplishing something every time I log into Warframe for a few missions. Meanwhile, I’m regularly walking away from sessions with little or nothing to show for it in Destiny 2’s endgame.

A large part of Warframe’s ability to make me feel like I’m always moving forward is its crafting system. I’m always getting materials for something new to build, even if I haven’t gotten the blueprint for it yet. Every mission is progress, every kill moving me a bit closer to a new piece of gear or level.

That sense of constant advancement of my character isn’t as present in Destiny 2. Outside of gear drops on random mobs (most of which I’ll never use) and reputation coins (which I’ll spend on gear that, in all likelihood, I’ll infuse into something else), running around the various worlds and shooting Vex doesn’t net much unless the action is attached to a weekly milestone.

As more planets open up, I’d like to see more regular, small rewards that actually mean something for doing those smaller tasks. Spending an hour on a game only to feel like you didn’t move forward in any way is bunk.

t;dr:

Granted, it’s early in Destiny 2’s lifespan, so there’s plenty of time for that lack to be addressed. I’d also never argue that Destiny 2 should go for the full-on grind of Warframe. But there are things Bungie’s premium shooter could learn from the design of Digital Extremes’ slow burn of a success.

I've just started playing Warframe the other day and I can't believe that such polished and content-packed game is actually free to play. Yes, there'll be some grinding to do, but with the 'reward for every session', it doesn't sound that bad at all. Also, from what I've played so far, I agree with this line:

Warframe has more gameplay similarities to Vanquish than it does Gears of War.

Throw me to endless grinds if old.

 

[ezekial45]

Yeah, Warframe is rad. Sometime after Destiny: Rise of Iron, I went back to Warframe and I just fell in love with it. It's incredible with how well they balanced the micro transactions with the F2P model.

I only ever spent like $10 on the game for platinum, and I can still find a lot to do with the available content. I've unlocked so much from just playing normally, and it's not that steep of a grind at all. DE did such a wonderful job with it. I'm really excited to see how PoE will turn out.

 

[Niceguydan8]

While I understand and respect where Destiny 2 went, I kind of wish it leaned into the RPG aspects a little more. It's getting to the point where light levels and loot in general are just kind of pointless in my opinion. I think they could have made largely the same game without loot drops or light level and there would have been no problem.

Luckily, Warframe is there for me in that regard. Both games are great, but I prefer the direction Warframe goes with its systems over what Destiny 2 does.

 

[Kyne]

Bungie only needs to learn from Years 2 and 3 of Destiny 1.

this isn't' rocket science.

 

[Aztechnology]

I think it has more to learn from Diablo and Path of Exile in their approach to seasons, a campaign/side missions that are scalable and as a loot based game based off builds. They can still learn a lot from Warframe to take a big step forward from where they are currently though.

I think the biggest issue for Destiny 2 as of now, is not being able to separate PVP and PVE, and potentially let go of the raid, in favor of more interesting boss integrated story/campaign pieces that are scalable/modifiable in nature. I'm not exactly sure how they can move forward in terms of PVE with the raid being the current pinnacle of the end game with little to no incentive to participate in any other PVE content.

 

[GReeeeN]

Interesting article, as an avid Destiny player since the D1 beta with 3 maxed characters, I've always been intrigued with Warframe. I love the Destiny grind loop, the Raids/ teamwork and the competitive nature of Trials but I always wished there was something else out there with the same style, just a lot more in depth and more complex. Maybe its time to give Warframe a go?

Although the whole idea of paying to progress, or paying to get specific gear turns me off. I really like how destiny rewards you with specific loot for specific activities. For example in D2 getting a full set of flawless gear shows you've been flawless a number of times and is an accomplishment on its own. It seems in Warframe, if your willing to put down real cash, you can end up with the best loot in the game without "earning" it...

 

[XAL]

Bungie only needs to learn from Years 2 and 3 of Destiny 1.

this isn't' rocket science.

Just year 3.

 

[CountAntonius]

Warframe gave me a lot of fun but that combat and enemy design go stale really quickly. The gamplay loop just stopped being fun. I try going back every few months and I just can't handle it.

 

[Orochinagis]

I am still puzzled why we cant mark location or enemies on Destiny , why we cant change the other emotes rather than the only useful one.

Warframe was ahead of Destiny 1, but Destiny 1 was saved by its amazing gunplay and community refusing the game to die

 

[serenewarfare]

Destiny needs scalable repeatable content. Hopefully the "Infinite Forest" in the first DLC is more than just a clever name. But even then it'll still have issues.

The problem is that gear has such an inherent limit with their power level system. I can run rifts for an absolutely ridiculous amount of time in Diablo and the gear will scale and scale and scale. Destiny has a much shorter scale and harder cap. It makes the gear loop less interesting.

 

[AusRoachman]

From memory destiny 1 behaved in a similar way to warframe, guns required upgrading, the more you played the more abilities your gun unlocked.

It was a hell of a grind but i actually loved it, i think destiny Year 1 is the best it ever was. Sure i grinded for months and months , it took me 3-4 months to get my first exotic , its amazing how different it feels with so much loot being thrown at you (largely all of it under levelled/useless).

 

[NullPointer]

That "reward for every session" is a big deal, and it holds true even if you've been playing for years on end. Its possibly the best long term progression system(s) I've seen.

And because you're constantly leveling or releveling up weapons and warframes and companions, and you always need some of each of the gazillion different resources indigenous to each of the planets, as well as the ongoing mod hunt from different factions and enemy types, alerts popping up every few minutes at particular nodes, and with every planet having their own unique spin on mission types there's always a reason to visit and revisit every location. You don't need to wait on drip-feed dailies or weeklies to have a reason to run a mission. Outside of something like Diablo 3 it also one of the best examples of asset re-use and squeezing every last ounce of gameplay out of everything DE has added to the game since launch.

Warframe also doesn't reset or invalidate loot, so if Warframe has a ten year plan, that plan will be to have a continuously growing game over that time, having everything the player has done or accomplished persist throughout each update and expansion.

I don't want Destiny to become a Warframe clone, nor Warframe to become DE's Destiny, but both games could lean from each other, though I only see DE putting that into practice (story quests, social spaces, landscapes, etc). You can see a lot of inspiration from other games throughout.

Destiny needs scalable repeatable content.

I think the biggest issue for Destiny 2 as of now, is not being able to separate PVP and PVE ...

This so much.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Interesting article, as an avid Destiny player since the D1 beta with 3 maxed characters, I've always been intrigued with Warframe. I love the Destiny grind loop, the Raids/ teamwork and the competitive nature of Trials but I always wished there was something else out there with the same style, just a lot more in depth and more complex. Maybe its time to give Warframe a go?

Although the whole idea of paying to progress, or paying to get specific gear turns me off. I really like how destiny rewards you with specific loot for specific activities. For example in D2 getting a full set of flawless gear shows you've been flawless a number of times and is an accomplishment on its own. It seems in Warframe, if your willing to put down real cash, you can end up with the best loot in the game without "earning" it...

The strength of a given weapon is largely gated by mod strength, and most of the weapons you as a player decide you want to craft and just do it. There is no gear RNG in this game. If you saw a weapon you want (unlike certain Destiny guns), you figure out how to make the gun, get the materials to farm it (usually not difficult), and then you craft it yourself.

I could have purchased the best statistical weapon in the game but if I don't have my mods leveled or don't have a good build, a much worse weapon would easily outclass it if was proper modded. To the best of my knowledge, Endo (currency to level up mods) cannot be purchased.

 

[Raven117]

While I really like warframe, no way do they implement that complicated of a system in destiny... just no way. Also while the gameplay is solid... destiny is just that much better in the feel of combat that warframe imo.

 

[Aztechnology]

Destiny needs scalable repeatable content. Hopefully the "Infinite Forest" in the first DLC is more than just a clever name. But even then it'll still have issues.

The problem is that gear has such an inherent limit with their power level system. I can run rifts for an absolutely ridiculous amount of time in Diablo and the gear will scale and scale and scale. Destiny has a much shorter scale and harder cap. It makes the gear loop less interesting.

I hope so too, but their one forray into a non raid "Scalable(Not really though)" content was House of Wolves, and that fell pretty flat for me, to be frank, that expansion was a complete waste of time. I hope, but I have my doubts. I really don't know what they are thinking with Destiny 2, they seemed to throw a lot of their progress they made during D1 away. While a few things improved QOL wise, a lot of the things important to core gameplay got dumbed down or removed entirely.

 

[Strangelove77]

I actually reinstalled Warframe last night and played all day today and really enjoyed it.
Last time I played it was around 2013-2014 and I didn't really care for it. I'm not sure what the big difference is, but I feel like it plays better and is kind of easier to figure out how to get more powerful this time.
I haven't played Warframe nearly as long as either of the Destiny games but it looks like it's loaded with content.
While the shooting in Destiny is obviously superior, I think Warframe nails the rpg and loadout aspect a lot better. The mods you can equip here actually do really useful stuff and you can equip 10 of them at once. There's a lot of versatility and customization. Your character feels like yours instead of everyone using the same shit and looking the same.
There's also a lot of leveling up. I know people hated it, but leveling up weapons feels good here. The weapons aren't pieces of crap that you have to level to make them good, they're already good and leveling them lets you attach more mods so your weapons are even better.
In short - you feel powerful and unique in Warframe. In Destiny 2 you just feel like a common soldier in that world. Like one of many.

And honestly - fuck the token system in Destiny 2. I don't like it. There's no satisfaction in it. You just pump that shit into vendors and dismantle 99% of it. You're not building towards anything. It's just such a soulless system. Instead of earning things you feel like you're just putting coins into a slot machine and always losing. Fuck that.

I guess it's going to be Destiny 2 on Tuesdays and Warframe all the other days from now on.

 

[GReeeeN]

The strength of a given weapon is largely gated by mod strength, and most of the weapons you as a player decide you want to craft and just do it. There is no gear RNG in this game. If you saw a weapon you want (unlike certain Destiny guns), you figure out how to make the gun, get the materials to farm it (usually not difficult), and then you craft it yourself.

I could have purchased the best statistical weapon in the game but if I don't have my mods leveled or don't have a good build, a much worse weapon would easily outclass it if was proper modded. To the best of my knowledge, Endo (currency to level up mods) cannot be purchased.

I see, how does one player distinguish a characters skill level and/or dedication to the game if there is no RNG gear?, is this done by showing off weapons with mods instead of the actual appearance of the character?

Is there a way to have an end game character in Warframe look/ have weapons that can ONLY be accessed by playing the game (that be through specific difficult activities (raids?) or running weekly missions) instead of just paying for it?

 

[texhnolyze]

I am still puzzled why we cant mark location or enemies on Destiny , why we cant change the other emotes rather than the only useful one.

Warframe was ahead of Destiny 1, but Destiny 1 was saved by its amazing gunplay and community refusing the game to die

Warframe has also been steadily gaining popularity over the years. It's regularly sitting at the top 10 most played game on Steam, and I believe it's popular on the PS4 too. Both OTs (PC and PS4) in GAF community are still active as well.

 

[Hedge]

Warframe grind, though, feels a lot less meaningful. Grind parts to build a weapon to rank it up and get mastery xp to.. get access to more weapons. Add that to enemies that aren't interesting and rather mindless mission types and.. Warframe has s lot of systems that seem great on paper but don't feel satisfying after you've seen the same maps and same enemies.

 

[NullPointer]

So essentially, is there a way to have an end game character in Warframe look or have weapons that can ONLY be accessed by actually playing the game (that be through specific difficult activities or running weekly mission) instead of just paying for it?

It doesn't quite work that way.

A new player can get a decent weapon quickly. But a long time player may have re-leveled that same weapon (prestiging, sortof) to optimize it for several high end builds. A weapon is always going to have its own inherent weakenesses and strengths, but long term players will know how to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives into very optimized, personal builds, across a wide swath of weapons and frames.

Look comes down to how much time and care you want to expend in customizing the options you have at your disposal, along with platinum if you really want to deck your stuff out, as most cosmetic options (and there are a gazillion of them) cost platinum.

What separates long term players is the breadth of their arsenal and how much power they've invested in each item of their gear. And you don't see that by just looking at a player, you see it when they wipe the floor with the hardest enemies and missions, even using the same weaponry anybody could get pretty easily.

Although, come to think of it, there are special syndicate weapons and cosmetics that you can only get by maxing them out in reputation. Syndicates themselves are an end-game system, and you need to spend some quality time with each to get their augments, special weapons and cosmetics. So that might count here.

 

[HenryEen]

Posted this in other threads the other day, but as someone with limited game play time, I really really appreciated Destiny accessibility.

Tried Warframe for PS4 once, gives up because of the amount of grind involved. IIRC you need to find blueprint first, then find the materials needed to craft them, then wait 1-3 days real world timers.

Played for about a week, got stuck in one mission and can't craft better weapon or new frame because the materials are found further in the game, which I can't get.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Interesting article, as an avid Destiny player since the D1 beta with 3 maxed characters, I've always been intrigued with Warframe. I love the Destiny grind loop, the Raids/ teamwork and the competitive nature of Trials but I always wished there was something else out there with the same style, just a lot more in depth and more complex. Maybe its time to give Warframe a go?

Although the whole idea of paying to progress, or paying to get specific gear turns me off. I really like how destiny rewards you with specific loot for specific activities. For example in D2 getting a full set of flawless gear shows you've been flawless a number of times and is an accomplishment on its own. It seems in Warframe, if your willing to put down real cash, you can end up with the best loot in the game without "earning" it...

I see, how does one player distinguish a characters skill level and/or dedication to the game if there is no RNG gear?, is this done by showing off weapons with mods instead of the actual appearance of the character?

So essentially, is there a way to have an end game character in Warframe look or have weapons that can ONLY be accessed by playing the game (that be through specific difficult activities or running weekly missions) instead of just paying for it?

To the best of my knowledge, the best weapon in the game can be purchased with platinum. However, like I said earlier, If the player does not have the proper mods (some of which are very rare), then it's not even close to the best weapon in the game. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the currency for mod upgrades cannot be purchased. So really, as I see it, the stuff you're looking for is moreso found in mod setup rather than the actual gun itself. It would easily be reflected on the stat screen of every mission. That being said, there's nothing like looking at somebody in decked out raid gear in Warframe.

At some point the progression gets largely horizontal. The game isn't a treadmill in the same way Destiny is. The fun of warframe, in my opinion, is the journey towards hitting that endgame. Trying out a bunch of different frames and weapons and finding out what you like the best.

Also, appearance is basically just "make your Warframe look cool," there's pretty much no progression tied to it. It's all cosmetic stuff.

 

[Tye The Czar]

While I really like warframe, no way do they implement that complicated of a system in destiny... just no way. Also while the gameplay is solid... destiny is just that much better in the feel of combat that warframe imo.

While I haven't played Destiny so far, I can agree that Warframe's combat leaves a lot to be desired. It does feel great to ninja around and kill everything as Excalibur, but I always found its core gameplay of shooting 'n slicing to be nothing more.
I mostly saw myself doing *aim for the head/weakspot and shoot or get up close & slice, spam abilities, grab loot, repeat.*

For me, the best F2P model in the world won't be enough if the mechanical depth isn't there to back it up. See: Eternal

 

[Orochinagis]

Bungie only needs to learn from Years 2 and 3 of Destiny 1.

this isn't' rocket science.

Eh, scaling is not the answer, was so silly to see scaling on TTK as lazy fix against the light mechanic that push you to gring for that little push to reach the raid requirement.

When Bungie introduced RNG stats on gear with RNG light level was so bizzare and insulting I just left the game.

RoI somehow fixed the RNG but added relic to the PL I didnt bother even finish the DLC

 

[squidyj]

I think it has more to learn from Diablo and Path of Exile in their approach to seasons, a campaign/side missions that are scalable and as a loot based game based off builds. They can still learn a lot from Warframe to take a big step forward from where they are currently though.

I think the biggest issue for Destiny 2 as of now, is not being able to separate PVP and PVE, and potentially let go of the raid, in favor of more interesting boss integrated story/campaign pieces that are scalable/modifiable in nature. I'm not exactly sure how they can move forward in terms of PVE with the raid being the current pinnacle of the end game with little to no incentive to participate in any other PVE content.

if raids are out i'm out, guaranteed.

 

[jviggy43]

Pretty positive they've found their future, and it doesn't include working your game around the hardcore fanbase. It seems they couldn't care less and it's obviously a hell of a lot easier to develop content for casual gamers than it is for people who want a ton of content for end game.

Maybe that will change but honestly every decision they've made for D2 seems to be designed without the hardcore audience in mind.

 

[SimpleCRIPPLE]

I think it has more to learn from Diablo and Path of Exile in their approach to seasons, a campaign/side missions that are scalable and as a loot based game based off builds. They can still learn a lot from Warframe to take a big step forward from where they are currently though.

I think the biggest issue for Destiny 2 as of now, is not being able to separate PVP and PVE, and potentially let go of the raid, in favor of more interesting boss integrated story/campaign pieces that are scalable/modifiable in nature. I'm not exactly sure how they can move forward in terms of PVE with the raid being the current pinnacle of the end game with little to no incentive to participate in any other PVE content.

Never really considered it, but the thought of them getting rid of raids is interesting. Instead of Bungie hoarding 3-4 encounters to drop in a raid and then we have to farm it for 4-6 months, they could just focus on dropping something like strikes more often with interesting bosses, or even complex world bosses at a more regular pace.

This sounds even better considering I’m not that fond of Leviathon, and we already know that once Prestige mode gets old, Bungie will add in challenges. We’re looking at Leviathon being the core focus of PVE endgame until at least December and that’s a little depressing.

 

[NullPointer]

While I haven't played Destiny so far, I can agree that Warframe's combat leaves a lot to be desired. It does feel great to ninja around and kill everything as Excalibur, but I always found its core gameplay of shooting 'n slicing to be nothing more.
I mostly saw myself doing *aim for the head/weakspot and shoot or get up close & slice, spam abilities, grab loot, repeat.*

There's way more to it than that - because you make builds for specific mission types and factions, and even specific enemy types. Enemies don't just have hit points and a yellow bar if they're tough. Each enemy type has several layers of defense - flesh, armor and shields of various types, while weapons can do something like a dozen different types of damage, each with its own benefits and drawbacks based upon the enemy, and each layer of that enemy's defense.

If I'm running a tough Infested mission, and the Ancients (for instance) keep ruining my day, I can look em up in the wiki and mod my gear to take down their specific defenses in particular, or I can build out a broader loadout for their faction in general. Same with different mission types that may prioritize point defense, or stealth, or protecting NPCs, or any of dozens of other variables that mix things up. You can choose the best of your frames and weapons and builds for each for whatever you're attacking. As the game gets harder you benefit from doing this more and more.

In terms of the gunplay and action, only half of it is in the moment. The other half is deciding what to bring in terms of weapons and warframe and then the particular builds for your weapons and warframes that'll have the best effect.

Damage 2.0 plus modding make for an insane level of depth.

 

[Gator86]

I think it has more to learn from Diablo and Path of Exile in their approach to seasons, a campaign/side missions that are scalable and as a loot based game based off builds. They can still learn a lot from Warframe to take a big step forward from where they are currently though.

I think the biggest issue for Destiny 2 as of now, is not being able to separate PVP and PVE, and potentially let go of the raid, in favor of more interesting boss integrated story/campaign pieces that are scalable/modifiable in nature. I'm not exactly sure how they can move forward in terms of PVE with the raid being the current pinnacle of the end game with little to no incentive to participate in any other PVE content.

Diablo is a frequent point of comparison, but Destiny is so dissimilar in it's current iteration - there's little loot, no customization, no builds, no real progression past 20. Destiny is such a stripped down whatever the hell Destiny is, it doesn't really compare at all.

The raid system doesn't seem sustainable. I haven't done the D2 raid, but did the D1 ones. From what I hear about the new one, and having done the old ones, it seems like they're already stretching the limits of their creativity. Stand here or everyone dies, move mcguffin, fight off waves, filler platforming, bad stealth, repeat for next raid. I'd rather have more repeatable content than a raid I do once then never want to play again.

 

[serenewarfare]

Pretty positive they've found their future, and it doesn't include working your game around the hardcore fanbase. It seems they couldn't care less and it's obviously a hell of a lot easier to develop content for casual gamers than it is for people who want a ton of content for end game.

Maybe that will change but honestly every decision they've made for D2 seems to be designed without the hardcore audience in mind.

I don't think you need "a ton of content" though. I think you just need content that scales and repeats, and rewards that make them worth repeating. Look at Diablo 3. Overall, that game really doesn't have that much unique content. But the endgame is still fun because you have stuff like rifts that, while they're all based on the same assets, have modifiers and scale endlessly so that you never run out of stuff to do. And the gear you get isn't all new either. It's mostly just the same gear with the sliders set differently and the numbers bumped up a little, which makes you feel like you are progressing.

None of that is a ton of new original content. It's just a really smartly designed system and loot cycle that can stand on its own and doesn't need to be maintained by a live team.

 

[GReeeeN]

It doesn't quite work that way.

A new player can get a decent weapon quickly. But a long time player may have re-leveled that same weapon (prestiging, sortof) to optimize it for several high end builds. A weapon is always going to have its own inherent weakenesses and strengths, but long term players will know how to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives into very optimized, personal builds, across a wide swath of weapons and frames.

Look comes down to how much time and care you want to expend in customizing the options you have at your disposal, along with platinum if you really want to deck your stuff out, as most cosmetic options (and there are a gazillion of them) cost platinum.

Whats separate long term players is the breadth of their arsenal and how much power they've invested in each item of their gear. And you don't see that by just looking at a player, you see it when they wipe the floor with the hardest enemies and missions, even using the same weaponry anybody could get pretty easily.

Although, come to think of it, there are special syndicate weapons and cosmetics that you can only get by maxing them out in reputation. Syndicates themselves are an end-game system, and you need to spend some quality time with each to get their augments, special weapons and cosmetics. So that might count here.

So the more time you spend on the game, the more powerful your character/ end game builds/ dmg output becomes rather than the actual cosmetics and looks of the character?. And if you wanted to look unique among other players, you use this platinum currency to change your look to "stand out", but then again, this currency could be purchased with real money if you wanted to?. So an end game player with a fully decked out physical appearance could have either 1) spent 1000 hours grinding platinum currency to make their characters look unique or 2) spent $100+ in real money and used this time to focus on upgrading weapons?

Having the end game based off character damage output, wouldn't this separate the community?, in Destiny 1, the Gjallarhorn was a powerful weapon and did an insane amount of damage, but what this ended up doing was separating the community where to play the absolute hardest end game activities, groups would only accept players that had this gun. The only way to obtain the gun was RNG, so even dedicated players couldn't get into these high level groups, thankfully they fixed this in the later destiny 1 expansions and in d2.

If more powerful weapons and dmg output is the main incentive to keep playing Warframe, how does the community remain balanced?, and if the community does remain balanced, and a super end game player with 2000 hours can play the exact same content as a early end game player with only 200 hours, with the only advantage of "finishing a level quicker" and clearing the floor much faster, is this the actual main drive to keep playing Warframe?, finishing levels faster?

What are the advantages of putting time into upgrading a weapon in Warframe other than damage output?, are there exclusive missions only available to higher end players with these crazy modded out weapons?, or is it just how quickly you can clear ads in the same content that a 100hr player is playing?.

Sorry for diving deep into the details, I just want to understand how Warframe end game works and how its comparable to Destiny's addictive end game loot grind.

 

[geordiemp]

Hope not.

I only have time to game at weekends, so I dont want to do "Destiny the full time job" to make good progress.

 

[NullPointer]

Having the end game based off character damage output, wouldn't this separate the community?, in Destiny 1, the Gjallarhorn was a powerful weapon and did an insane amount of damage, but what this ended up doing was separating the community where to play the absolute hardest end game activities, groups would only accept players that had this gun. The only way to obtain the gun was RNG, so even dedicated players couldn't get into these high level groups, thankfully they fixed this in the later destiny 1 expansions and in d2.

This is more a problem with Destiny since as you level up your choices for activities with the potential for upgrades narrows. So you end up with Nightfalls and Raids for those looking to push forward, and because nobody wants to waste their time failing several times over you see groups being very exclusive with the players they want to group with.

In Warframe, there are so many different treadmills going at one time (with every player advancing along multiple lines at any time), including players resetting their gear to push it farther, there are so many activities ongoing with rewards that you only see that kind of exclusionary behavior with relic runs, where you go on missions to unlock the most powerful prime items in the game. But even then there is open matchmaking so while some groups can get super picky, it shouldn't stop anybody from being able to jump into those missions in seconds via matchmaking.

But hey, if you want LFG there are in-game chat channels to find players for something specific. And the clan support in this game is bonkers in scope and usefulness.

What are the advantages of putting time into upgrading a weapon in Warframe other than damage output?, are there exclusive missions only available to higher end players with these crazy modded out weapons?, or is it just how quickly you can clear ads in the same content that a 100hr player is playing?

Anything and everything. When you relevel a weapon or warframe you're adding mod capacity, and mods can do everything you can imagine, along with some crazy stuff besides. But yeah, you can focus on damage, or crit, or status effects, or particular elemental types of damage (you can literally create different combinations of elemental damage types through modding), fire rate, blast radius, dual shot, range, punch-through, ammo capacity, making them silent, whatever. Like I mentioned above you can not only accentuate the positives in a weapon, turning a high base crit into an insane 120% crit, but also minimize the negatives like speeding up reloads or adding ammo capacity, etc. Anything you can mod for gets expanded as you relevel your gear. BUT... each time you reset you are tailoring a mod slot for a specific family of mods. Its not just about purely adding capacity, its optimizing for specific types of mods.

And remember, since you're releveling stuff all the time to optimize it, that means that high end players aren't relegated to high end activities. If you take your warframe at level 30 and reset it back to 0 you benefit from running through lower difficulty missions and alerts as much as a new player with new weapons does. So since everybody is running several lines of progression at a time, across the entire star map, you'll always find a mix of old and new players in every mission.

 

[TroicaBlur]

Year 1 of the Destiny games are the worst. Hope Bungie gets it right with Destiny 3.

 

[atpbx]

Destiny needs to take:

The permanent gear system from Warframe, the Braton Prime I crafted 4years ago is the Braton Prime I use now, I can change its elemental or slash/puncture/impact at will with mod cards.

The amount of “characters” from Warframe, I have them all, I can’t rember them all but you have something like 20odd very different ability sets and base stats, as opposed to the 3 of Destiny.

The reward system they almost had set in D1- a set reward for a set activity or when running a certain key or relic. In Destiny 2 you have a small chance of landing something worthwhile from a loot pool diluted with lots of worthless junk.

Mix that with the gun play of Destiny, and you are part way there.

Then all they need to fix is increasing the amount of mission types and tile sets and they will be most of the way there.

 

[Carcetti]

Weapon variety is also insane in Warframe if you compare it to Destiny games. Of my favorite weapons that I've used a lot I got Opticor (single shot mega damage laser cannon), Lenz (a bow which is pretty much shoots out Warlock sunsinger ult from Destiny), Boltor (harpoon launching machine gun), Sonicor (wrist-mounted sonic crossbow that ragdolls enemies away even if it doesn't kill them), Pandero (revolver with rapid alt-fire), Wraith (straight-up flamethrower) and so on. That's also a really small portion out of the whole arsenal.

And then you get to the insanity of the classes like Octavia which lets you make a tiny looped song and kill enemies with the power of disco.

 

[Renekton]

The article seems right on one thing, Warframe crafting is heckuva lot grindier.

 

[GlamFM]

Something needs to be done.

I don´t care where they learn from as long as the learn something. They could just look a their own game and draw some conclusions.

This is not a hardcore vs. casual thing and I don't understand why people try to spin it into just that.

There is nothing "hardcore" about having a reason to play adventures or lost sectors.
I don´t think the casuals are happy that there is no reason to ever play a single strike.

I have been 305 for about a week now and I don´t know why I should play the nightfall ever again or do any of the milestones on Tuesday.

Yes, some things should be locked behind significant time investment, but they should be purely cosmetic.

Make 305 easily attainable for everybody - fine, but leave some bars in there for me to fill up.

There are little things that could be done that would not disrupt the playerbase that I would really appreciate.

How about a quest on every exotic - 10.000 kills - BOOM - exclusive ornament. I´d be up for that.

Super cool ship for completing 100 Strikes? Cool shader for 100 Crucible matches?


Go Bungie. Turn this around. There is a great framework here.

 

[GReeeeN]

This is more a problem with Destiny since as you level up your choices for activities with the potential for upgrades narrows. So you end up with Nightfalls and Raids for those looking to push forward, and because nobody wants to waste their time failing several times over you see groups being very exclusive with the players they want to group with.

In Warframe, there are so many different treadmills going at one time (with every player advancing along multiple lines at any time), including players resetting their gear to push it farther, there are so many activities ongoing with rewards that you only see that kind of exclusionary behavior with relic runs, where you go on missions to unlock the most powerful prime items in the game. But even then there is open matchmaking so while some groups can get super picky, it shouldn't stop anybody from being able to jump into those missions in seconds via matchmaking.

But hey, if you want LFG there are in-game chat channels to find players for something specific. And the clan support in this game is bonkers in scope and usefulness.


Anything and everything. When you relevel a weapon or warframe you're adding mod capacity, and mods can do everything you can imagine, along with some crazy stuff besides. But yeah, you can focus on damage, or crit, or status effects, or particular elemental types of damage (you can literally create different combinations of elemental damage types through modding), fire rate, blast radius, dual shot, range, punch-through, ammo capacity, making them silent, whatever. Like I mentioned above you can not only accentuate the positives in a weapon, turning a high base crit into an insane 120% crit, but also minimize the negatives like speeding up reloads or adding ammo capacity, etc. Anything you can mod for gets expanded as you relevel your gear. BUT... each time you level you are tailoring a mod slot for a specific family of mods. Its not just about purely adding capacity, its optimizing for specific types of mods.

And remember, since your releveling stuff all the time to optimize it, that means that high end players aren't relegated to high end activities. If you take your warframe at level 30 and reset it back to 0 you benefit from running through lower difficulty missions and alerts as much as a new player with new weapons does. So since everybody is running several lines of progression at a time, across the entire star map, you'll always find a mix of old and new players in every mission.

But it all comes back to perfecting a weapon(s) to essentially kill things faster and handle better, which is more of a personal gain rather than exclusive cosmetics to "show off" your character.

Are there any end game activities in Warframe that reward certain types of weapons or cosmetics or mods that are exclusive to that specific activity and can only be unlocked by playing or having a certain skill as a player? Something that essentially shows what you have done in the game by simply looking at the gear/ weapon piece rather than spending thousands of hours just increasing how perfect a weapon can be?

 

[KrebStar]

I look forward to waiting 48 hours to decode an exotic engram in Destiny 3.

 

[Yam's]

Bungie only needs to learn from Years 2 and 3 of Destiny 1.

this isn't' rocket science.

This is probably the most frustrating aspect of it.

 

[CountAntonius]

Warframe grind, though, feels a lot less meaningful. Grind parts to build a weapon to rank it up and get mastery xp to.. get access to more weapons. Add that to enemies that aren't interesting and rather mindless mission types and.. Warframe has s lot of systems that seem great on paper but don't feel satisfying after you've seen the same maps and same enemies.

Thank you. You've elaborated perfectly what ultimately happened to me in Warframe. Mind you I got a ton of hours till it happened but yeah.

 

[Carcetti]

Are there any end game activities in Warframe that reward certain types of weapons or cosmetics or mods that are exclusive to that specific activity and can only be unlocked by playing or having a certain skill as a player? Something that essentially shows what you have done in the game by simply looking at the gear/ weapon piece rather than spending thousands of hours just increasing how perfect a weapon can be?

Content is gated by the solar system map which opens up when you gain in power. Some frames can be only gotten by opening up the whole map and participating in high level quests activities. For example, some weapons require Kuva crafting component for farming, and you need to unlock advanced quests, so called Operator abilities, and then do Kuva mutator missions which are lot harder than their normal versions.

Also, most endgame players would say endgame in Warframe is FashionFrame a.k.a. putting together a really shiny outfit and hanging out in hubs showing it.

 

[NullPointer]

Are there any end game activities in Warframe that reward certain types of weapons or cosmetics or mods that are exclusive to that specific activity and can only be unlocked by playing or having a certain skill as a player? Something that essentially shows what you have done in the game by simply looking at the gear/ weapon piece rather than spending thousands of hours just increasing how perfect a weapon can be?

In terms of cosmetics, the only things I can think of that fit that bill are Syndicate Syndanas (warframe accessories like capes) that require you to have maxed out that particular Syndicate. Believe me, that takes a while. And comes with consequences (enemies of that faction WILL randomly ambush you in missions).

Cosmetics are generally only available via platinum (premium currency that you either buy, or get via in-game trading). That's the stuff I've spent 99% of my real money towards. But you can sometimes see some alerts pop up with alternate helmets for warframes and alternate skins for weapons.

There are several types of high end content, but cosmetics aren't the rewards there. But guaranteed, you'll see plenty of seriously decked out high level players.

 

[Bold One]

I look forward to waiting 48 hours to decode an exotic engram in Destiny 3.

I know, right? this is exactly what destiny needs, waiting 72 hours to unlock an armour set and then having to pay to speed it up.

 

[Orochinagis]

I look forward to waiting 48 hours to decode an exotic engram in Destiny 3.

Nonsense, at much you need 12 hrs to craft a weapon which can be done while you can go do other activities.

Warframes are the only ones who requires 72 hours and you can sell them or trade leftovers you dont own for PL if you want to rush them.

You dont need to pay , like at least play the game to understand the ecomony around platinum.

Like NullPointer said, you are not stuck, you can progress trought the game with your current gear, there are several crafted weapons you can buy with credits at right away.

 

[NullPointer]

I know, right? this is exactly what destiny needs, waiting 72 hours to unlock an armour set and then having to pay to speed it up.

Because Warframe is free to play, some of that grind can be reduced by throwing Digital Extremes a few bucks for more resources or to speed up crafting times, since guns can take 24 real-time hours to craft, while Warframes take three days.

That may seem bananas at first, but there's a ton to do in Warframe. The crafting often happens in the background while you're off doing something else.

They've got this right. While things take time to cook in the foundry, you aren't stopped, dead in the water, waiting next to a clock. While those items are being crafted, there is still a shitton of other things to do. And when you come back to the game later you'll find your items waiting there for you.

Its just a different rhythm.

Destiny players wait for dailies and for the weekly resets, and that wait *can* stop your goals dead in the water. In Warframe there are always plenty of other paths to take while things cook.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

So the more time you spend on the game, the more powerful your character/ end game builds/ dmg output becomes rather than the actual cosmetics and looks of the character?

Having the end game based off character damage output, wouldn't this separate the community?

If more powerful weapons and dmg output is the main incentive to keep playing Warframe, how does the community remain balanced?, and if the community does remain balanced, and a super end game player with 2000 hours can play the exact same content as a early end game player with only 200 hours, with the only advantage of "finishing a level quicker" and clearing the floor much faster, is this the actual main drive to keep playing Warframe?, finishing levels faster?

What are the advantages of putting time into upgrading a weapon in Warframe other than damage output?, are there exclusive missions only available to higher end players with these crazy modded out weapons?, or is it just how quickly you can clear ads in the same content that a 100hr player is playing?.

Sorry for diving deep into the details, I just want to understand how Warframe end game works and how its comparable to Destiny's addictive end game loot grind.

Some missions in Warframe are horde-style endless defense or survival. It is annoying to sit in the first 10-15 minutes of the end-game mission because the enemies are way too easy.

Warframe is an endless progression mill. New weapons bump the power creep levels further and further, most old weapons become obsolete. There is a large amount of weapon/warframe, you will have to pick the correct (synergistic/strong) Warframe and the max DPS weapon into the end-game missions.

I don't have the latest Warframe knowledge, but the end-game wasn't there when I played. It is like Path of Exile without Navigator maps. You just pimp and customize your builds until you get tired of shooting the same bullet sponges over and over again.

 

[Arklite]

I suppose I should give WF another chance, as years ago the combat lacked a lot of impact with very simple stages and boring enemies. The movement system was cool but the stages and enemies hardly felt up to supporting it. As far as longevity and repeatability I'd rather have more complex co-op scenarios in Destiny than slow crafting. Also, A LOT more armours.

 

[Fancolors]

Put 18 hours into Warframe this week. There's often something to do, but I feel like the enemies are getting old. Besides I got to a point I probably need to spend Platinum to open up some slots, and I really don't want to get parts to trade.

I wish Destiny had Warframe's satisfying movement. That would be the dream.