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[Crayon]

I've had enough free fun with Warframe that I would not feel bad at all spending 10 bucks or so on that funny money. MechWarrior online works in s similar way. These games showed me that you can make a high quality and satisfying f2p game.

 

[GlamFM]

Ehh? It wasn't Jeff's decision to release the game before the raid was live. I hold that decision entirely at Activision/Bungie's feet and not any of the reviewers.

Holding the raid back like that really made no sense at all.

That’s really not the point.

 

[Bold One]

For me, it's the difference in the way that the games treat you - and the expectations they have of you as a player.

Destiny treats you like a child. Like you are incapable of logical thought beyond the level of a sixth grader. It holds your hand and gives you a tiny amount of options for character classes, loadouts, customization, etc.

Warframe treats you like you have a PhD in gaming. It gives you dozens of classes (30+), hundreds of options for loadouts (well over a hundred unique weapons - weapons that all perform, look, and act wildly different from one another, and dozens of mods with which to augment them), and thousands of customization settings (you can change your character's animations, right down to how they holster and wield their weapons - it's insane).

I feel like Destiny revels in patronizing its players. It acts as if you've never touched a videogame in your life. Warframe, on the other hand, treats you like an adult - and is aware that you are not an idiot, and can make rational and logical decisions about the way you build your character and approach missions.

All other things aside (and there are a lot of other things, obviously), this aspect alone places Warframe far above Destiny for me.

What a myopic and ironically patronising comparison. Destiny sucks because it treats you like you don't have a PHD in gaming? And that's a bad thing?

Is having a PhD in playing videogames a point of pride now?

It's OK for both games to cater to different sets of people with different priorities.

 

[Rexatality]

What a myopic and ironically patronising comparison. Destiny sucks because it treats you like you don't have a PHD in gaming? And that's a bad thing?

Is having a PhD in playing videogames a point of pride now?

It's OK for both games to cater to different sets of people with different priorities.

Destiny 2 treats hardcore players like garbage and gives several blowjobs to the ultra casual player. It is that patronizing

 

[Rexatality]

I didn't say it was hardcore vs. casual. I literally pointed out that players who specialize in one part of the game tend to have bad suggestions regarding the part they don't specialize in.

So when Slayerage, who specializes in PvE to the extent that he 2-man'd the final raid boss in Destiny... says things like,



and



and



These things are in direct opposition to what top PvP players have said, which has praised the move to smaller fireteams in crucible and more focus on primary gun fights. He's making these suggestions because they will make the game more exciting to him in the PvE space but he really doesn't care at all about what it does to the PvP space.

He straight up says it:



Cutting off the nose to spite the face. I mean, he didn't even throw in a suggestion to separate PvE and PvP balance design, which is the bone that most PvE-only types throw out there to at least feign as if they care about PvP.



Thanks for the information. When I played, You had 3 frames to choose from. Loki, Excalibur, and Volt. If you happened to choose Loki, you had a MUCH harder time solo as he was extremely squishy in early game before you had a chance to mod him sufficiently. There was also one particular mission fairly early on that was extremely low rate of finishing in a matchmade group and blocked planetary progress. At that point in time, there were certain sections like that. The community solution was "join a clan and run stuff with them" which is pretty hit or miss tbh. I know they later changed up the starter Frames and overhauled/updated systems, added features, etc.. etc... By then, I had no interest in returning to the game because it was still going to be a long and complex road to endgame which wasn't appealing as the gameplay itself wasn't satisfying. Racing through randomly generated levels of the same tiles in new configurations just wasn't enjoyable for me.

THEN THEY SHOULD BALANCE PVE AND PVP SEPARATELY, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!! Jesus fucking Christ, we've been begging Bungie to do this for 3 years and they're not willing to listen.

Static rolls don't help the game, it kills its replyability big time. With static rolls, a bad gun is bad forever. With random rolls, at least that bad gun has a chance to be good with certain perks.

 

[Bold One]

Destiny 2 treats hardcore players like garbage and gives several blowjobs to the ultra casual player. It is that patronizing

Treats hardcore like garbage? Really?

It's that abusive of a relationship?

And What do you have against blowjobs, you crazy man?

 

[Rexatality]

Treats hardcore like garbage? Really?

It's that abusive of a relationship?

And What do you have against blowjobs, you crazy man?

Nothing wrong with blowjobs. But too many can be tiring, you know

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't feel rewarded for my effort in playing the endgame activities or have fun playing them

 

[Niceguydan8]

What a myopic and ironically patronising comparison. Destiny sucks because it treats you like you don't have a PHD in gaming? And that's a bad thing?

Is having a PhD in playing videogames a point of pride now?

It's OK for both games to cater to different sets of people with different priorities.

It's maybe not the way I would word it if I were posting, but I think the general explanation is on point. Warframe has a lot more there and it's a lot more hands off. It let's the player experiment with its systems to come up with solutions to problems in a way that's unique to the player.

Destiny 2 has some of that, just a lot less. I think it's not nearly as open of an experience. Did anybody ever say that not having a PhD in gaming or whatever was a bad thing? In the post it seemed like the person said that he or she preferred Warframe because of that, not that Destiny 2 shouldn't do what it does

 

[JWiLL]

I can't even agree with the "Destiny has more satisfying combat" statement. Not until it launches on PC at least.

Also, show me a D2 weapon that's as fun to use as Dread - which is basically an "exotic" bow that drops from a boss that randomly shows up to hunt you mid mission. It's kinetic damage type is "slash"...so it's a bow that dismembers everything you hit with it.

Just the way you acquire Dread is more interesting than anything in D2.

I loved using The Last Word, Gjally, Hawkmoon, Truth, etc but none of the loot in D2 feels interesting to me. That's the games biggest flaw.

 

[Jest Chillin]

THEN THEY SHOULD BALANCE PVE AND PVP SEPARATELY, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!! Jesus fucking Christ, we've been begging Bungie to do this for 3 years and they're not willing to listen.

Static rolls don't help the game, it kills its replyability big time. With static rolls, a bad gun is bad forever. With random rolls, at least that bad gun has a chance to be good with certain perks.

Disagree with your thoughts on static rolls completely. And a lot of people agree with my stance. It's not a clear cut objective fact that it "kills replayability" and a lot of people are fine with random rolls being gone. I understand that there's a loud contingent that liked grinding strikes dozens of times for that god roll but far more people complained about it than praised it.

It's maybe not the way I would word it if I were posting, but I think the general explanation is on point. Warframe has a lot more there and it's a lot more hands off. It let's the player experiment with its systems to come up with solutions to problems in a way that's unique to the player.

Destiny 2 has some of that, just a lot less. I think it's not nearly as open of an experience. Did anybody ever say that not having a PhD in gaming or whatever was a bad thing? In the post it seemed like the person said that he or she preferred Warframe because of that, not that Destiny 2 shouldn't do what it does

He literally says Destiny treats its players like children who are "incapable of logical thought beyond the level of a 6th grader." That's a pretty clear statement that not having a "PhD in gaming" is a bad thing. The comparison is extreme and insulting. Especially insulting to those that enjoy Destiny 2 as it is.

 

[Izayoi]

What a myopic and ironically patronising comparison. Destiny sucks because it treats you like you don't have a PHD in gaming? And that's a bad thing?

Is having a PhD in playing videogames a point of pride now?

It's OK for both games to cater to different sets of people with different priorities.

Of course it's OK for both games to cater to different kinds of people - where did I say it wasn't?

In fact, where did I state that Destiny "sucks"?

No - I merely realized that after hundreds of hours with the first game, Destiny is not a franchise for me. I have come to a point where I seek out games with deep complexities and sprawling systems that take time to figure out.

I understand that not everyone has hours to spend theorycrafting and experimenting with various builds to see what works and what doesn't. Not everyone has the time to track down blueprints, farm materials, and then craft the item they're looking for. That is OK! Destiny can scratch the looter shooter itch for those folks.

For me, I'm looking for something different, something that I can really sink my teeth into. And for me, that something is Warframe. I was really glad to rediscover the game (I played it when it first came out and I was NOT a fan - it's basically completely unrecognizable from its initial showing) and I hope that articles like the one in the OP can help other people like me who are looking for something more as well.

He literally says Destiny treats its players like children who are "incapable of logical thought beyond the level of a 6th grader." That's a pretty clear statement that not having a "PhD in gaming" is a bad thing. The comparison is extreme and insulting. Especially insulting to those that enjoy Destiny 2 as it is.

My intent was not to insult people who play and enjoy Destiny. If it was, I would be insulting myself. I played A LOT of Destiny 1 - A LOT. I really enjoyed the time that I spent with the game, for the most part.

However, as time went on, it became clear to me that Bungie does not care about its most hardcore fans. They have proven that time and time again, whenever a new design decision is revealed. They are completely absorbed in sating their casual fanbase (which is FINE, by the way - that is their decision and clearly it is working well from a business perspective).

I realized that they are going for mass market appeal, and something that comes along with that mindset is a design philosophy that "streamlines" a game, and makes it palatable for as broad an audience as possible (something that likely played a prominent role in the series going for a "T" rating as opposed to a traditional Bungie "M" as well).

As I grow older, I have discovered in recent years that I am no longer the "mass market" that is so sought after by many developers. It's a big part of why I was so pleasantly surprised upon rediscovering Warframe - it's not afraid to exist outside of the traditional mass market, and go for players who are a potentially much smaller segment of the market.

Again, my intent was not to offend. I'm sorry if you were, or if my post came off as making fun of Destiny players. My statement was meant to be taken as "Bungie/Destiny makes inappropriate assumptions of their players, and vastly underestimates their cognitive abilities." not as "Destiny players have limited cognitive abilities." which I think some interpreted it as.

 

[lucebuce12]

I'd like to thank you OP. As someone who was somewhat disappointed with D2, Warframe is feeling like such a breath of fresh air.

 

[Niceguydan8]

I understand that there's a loud contingent that liked grinding strikes dozens of times for that god roll but far more people complained about it than praised it.

Based on what, exactly? It's kind of strange to make that comparative statement without anything backing it up.

 

[JWiLL]

Destiny REALLY needs it's "Second Dream" DLC.

Something that has a massive narrative impact that goes deep in to the lore of what Guardians actually are...where they came from. All we know right now is that the Traveller showed up, created Ghosts...and they give us "light". It's super shallow and vague as is though.

The Second Dream blew my mind when I first played it...and I'd only been a Warframe player for a few months at that point. I can understand why it hit some of the day one players so hard (Youtube reaction videos are amazing - linked earlier in the thread). The fact that it came a few years in to the game, where players had attachments to their frames, is why it resonated so much. I think a lot of the Destiny community are there with their guardians and Bungie has an opportunity to do something great.

Or they can just create another shitty villain like Ghaul.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"The Second Dream blew my mind when I first played it...and I'd only been a Warframe player for a few months at that point. I can understand why it hit some of the day one players so hard (Youtube reaction videos are amazing - linked earlier in the thread). The fact that it came a few years in to the game, where players had attachments to their frames, is why it resonated so much. I think a lot of the Destiny community are there with their guardians and Bungie has an opportunity to do something great."


The Second Dream definitely had me in my feelings a little bit, having played for just about 3 years when it dropped.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Based on what, exactly? It's kind of strange to make that comparative statement without anything backing it up.

Based on being in the community for D1, where people complained about having to run dozens of strikes looking for that good Grasp of Malok drop. Where people complained about not getting Gjall to drop because they missed it when Xur sold it week 2. Where people complained about #forever29 because VoG wouldn't drop them the one armor piece they needed, instead giving them shards and repeat pieces or shards and nothing.

Nobody actually praised the fact that they had to grind out good rolls until D2 came along and a lot of what people are reminiscing about with regards to D1 is rose colored glasses. Best case scenario is it's a case of not realizing what you've got til it's gone. However even in that case there's clearly two sides to the topic of grind, so it's not objectively missed.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Nobody actually praised the fact that they had to grind out good rolls until D2 came along and a lot of what people are reminiscing about with regards to D1 is rose colored glasses. Best case scenario is it's a case of not realizing what you've got til it's gone. However even in that case there's clearly two sides to the topic of grind, so it's not objectively missed.

People didn't have to grind out "good" rolls though, unless they were a top tier PvP player, and even then there are more solutions outside of "remove RNG."

None of the Destiny 1 PvE content ever required a god rolled weapon. It just seems like a total overcorrection.

The problem I have with this argument in general is that while the grind sucks, something like the Gjallarhorn was terribly imbalanced compared to pretty much everything else in the game.

I think people are complaining because previously that was something to strive for after doing the other content whereas now there's basically nothing.

Even then, it's still weird to talk about "most" people with very little hard data to actually back that up.

 

[Jest Chillin]

People didn't have to grind out "good" rolls though, unless they were a top tier PvP player, and even then there are more solutions outside of "remove RNG."

None of the Destiny 1 PvE content ever required a god rolled weapon. It just seems like a total overcorrection.

The problem I have with this argument in general is that while the grind sucks, something like the Gjallarhorn was terribly imbalanced compared to pretty much everything else in the game.

I think people are complaining because previously that was something to strive for after doing the other content whereas now there's basically nothing.

Even then, it's still weird to talk about "most" people with very little hard data to actually back that up.

What you're not taking into account is the community pressure. Gjall absolutely was terribly imbalanced but the community made it the PvE Meta. See.. the vast majority of players are this ever ebbing and flowing mass that's grouping together in PUG like fashion. A lot of time, even when players have a Clan.. they don't have a full group of people within that clan that they play with regularly. So community pressure to run the most efficient build is always there. There absolutely was a time when groups running Vault of Glass required everyone to have Gjall. Hell, running VoG Challenge modes during Age of Triumph had a lot of loadout requirements placed by the community upon itself. The playerbase collectively does this to itself, consistently.

To those who feel there's nothing to do.. I'd say play the game for fun gameplay rather than for rewards. If the gameplay is fun, the reward is just extra rather than being mandatory.

And yes, one can't speak definitively without hard data. But no one has hard data except Bungie... so if one were to want to rely solely on hard data, that would require trusting that Bungie's design decision's were made with the data at hand. And people either don't want to trust Bungie or don't care about the people the data supports. /shrug

 

[Izayoi]

Based on being in the community for D1, where people complained about having to run dozens of strikes looking for that good Grasp of Malok drop. Where people complained about not getting Gjall to drop because they missed it when Xur sold it week 2. Where people complained about #forever29 because VoG wouldn't drop them the one armor piece they needed, instead giving them shards and repeat pieces or shards and nothing.

Nobody actually praised the fact that they had to grind out good rolls until D2 came along and a lot of what people are reminiscing about with regards to D1 is rose colored glasses. Best case scenario is it's a case of not realizing what you've got til it's gone. However even in that case there's clearly two sides to the topic of grind, so it's not objectively missed.

From my perspective, they had two cracks at getting progression right and they missed both times.

You're absolutely right about the first game being RNG hell, where if you were unlucky, it was impossible to get the piece of gear you wanted, or if you were me, you had five GHorns, two Mythoclast, and every class at LL 30.

They swung too far in the other direction with D2, making gear acquisition trivial at best and giving players little reward for checking in on a weekly basis.

---

Part of what makes Warframe so amazing and fundamentally different is that every piece of gear, and (nearly) every class/frame is viable given the right kind of love and attention. Except for the MK-1 stuff (starter gear), if you like a weapon, you can absolutely make it endgame-ready by taking things into your own hands with the appropriate mods.

You can craft everything, and the blueprints for building the very best gear (Prime frames and weapons) and individual mods can be traded between players.

There is always something to work toward - a cool frame that you saw during a recent pub game, a new type of weapon (of which there are many), a new companion or sentinel, catching up on the story, completion of the star map...

Rather than the "check in every week to do your Nightfall and Raid" model of Destiny, Warframe has decided to just let you do whatever, whenever. It's a system that is far less frustrating, at least for me.

 

[Niceguydan8]

What you're not taking into account is the community pressure. Gjall absolutely was terribly imbalanced but the community made it the PvE Meta. See.. the vast majority of players are this ever ebbing and flowing mass that's grouping together in PUG like fashion. A lot of time, even when players have a Clan.. they don't have a full group of people within that clan that they play with regularly. So community pressure to run the most efficient build is always there. There absolutely was a time when groups running Vault of Glass required everyone to have Gjall. Hell, running VoG Challenge modes during Age of Triumph had a lot of loadout requirements placed by the community upon itself. The playerbase collectively does this to itself, consistently.

To those who feel there's nothing to do.. I'd say play the game for fun gameplay rather than for rewards. If the gameplay is fun, the reward is just extra rather than being mandatory.

And yes, one can't speak definitively without hard data. But no one has hard data except Bungie... so if one were to want to rely solely on hard data, that would require trusting that Bungie's design decision's were made with the data at hand. And people either don't want to trust Bungie or don't care about the people the data supports. /shrug

How am I not taking that into consideration? My point is basically "hey instead of removing this entire system, why not just work on balancing?" Gjallarhorn was an extreme outlier when it comes to balance. The fact that it was so good makes the RNG feel even worse than it already did.

My point is that when balance is clearly a problem, I don't think the solution should necessarily be "hey let's remove the system at hand rather than solve the balance problem we have." I think they did both of those things and now we are stuck with a better system to get weapons with (Still needs a lot of tweaks though. Mods need a significant overhaul) but overall more bland weapons functionally

 

[JWiLL]

The Second Dream definitely had me in my feelings a little bit, having played for just about 3 years when it dropped.

Pretty rare in this medium to have a build up/payoff like that. Skill Up perfectly describes it in his video.

I actually just played through it again this weekend (switched to PC awhile back and grinding towards PoE). Pretty incredible how good the in-engine cutscenes, voice acting and soundtrack are for the entire quest. It feels like a AAA game.

I wonder if Destiny will ever attempt anything like that, or if they're satisfied just doing random new big bads. After the D2 campaign I'm not even certain they have strong enough writers to give it a shot.

 

[commish]

I've been playing Warframe the last few days, and I'll just say that I now understand why so many people in this thread praise the game.

 

[ViviOggi]

I've been playing Warframe the last few days, and I'll just say that I now understand why so many people in this thread praise the game.

Glad you're enjoying it mate. The beginning is the worst part

 

[Afrocious]

I've been playing Warframe the last few days, and I'll just say that I now understand why so many people in this thread praise the game.

Word? Gonna give Warframe a fair shake soon.

Also, what's this 'Second Dream' stuff?

 

[NullPointer]

Also, what's this 'Second Dream' stuff?

Believe me, its better to find out for yourself when you get to that point.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Word? Gonna give Warframe a fair shake soon.

Also, what's this 'Second Dream' stuff?

Second Dream is the part where the story starts to make some kind of sense and it's a hell of a moment if you go in blind. You'll want to rush through planets as best you can to get there.

 

[commish]

Glad you're enjoying it mate. The beginning is the worst part

Word? Gonna give Warframe a fair shake soon.

Also, what's this 'Second Dream' stuff?

You have to give it a chance, a real chance. I started and stopped Warframe before, found it way too confusing and the combat a little lame compared to Destiny. But stick with it, and then, once it clicks, and you're flying through the air at 100 miles an hour, unloading your ridiculously modified rifle into a pack of 20 enemies, only to land, pull out you giant god damn sword, and then go to work obliterating 15 more, all in the span of about 5 seconds, it's simply amazing. The feeling you get as you get stronger is what I always wanted from Destiny - to have tangible results from getting stronger and that badass new weapon.

And the fact that it's free is just mind blowing. So polished and fluid.

It's definitely not for everyone, but, being a big fan of Diablo and Destiny, it's just what I've been looking for.

 

[taoofjord]

I want to like this game so bad. I just gave it another shot and I still can’t get over how the game feels. I’ve tried it with KB/M and a controller and it just feels really loose and unenjoyable to play. What a shame.

 

[Z3M0G]

"This game will fail" - every publisher that looked at Warframe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztbRJm19BUo

Fantastic essay video. Goes into how it began, how publishers reacted to the initial pitch, and why it is successful today.

Especially in today's "loot crate" climate, it's time for publishers to take a long hard look at Warframe again and learn a few things...