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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
MisterHero
Super Member
oh yeah? well, well, mccoy was a ripoff of Pike's old country doctorCheebs said:
about pulaski, why did they give an older woman an aging disease
seems kinda redundant
JoshuaJSlone
Member
This is probably the case. There was mention of a similar all-Vulcan ship in TOS. However, it still stretches the suspension of disbelief that they interact with such groups so infrequently. The Federation just seems too human-dominant, and even more specifically North American/European dominant. Given the origins of the franchise it's not totally surprising, but it does make for a slightly blander interstellar grouping than you'd think.Sir Fragula said:
This is one thing I enjoy about the books; they're freer to go crazy in this area. I just started reading one that happens in the later days of the original Enterprise, and it includes such weird things as a Horta officer and "a Sulamid, who looked like nothing more than a seven-foot-tall pillar of pink violet tentacles, with a waving rosette of stalked eyes on top."
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Well, doesn't Riker's current command have a very small % of humans in the overall crew? I think the Titan had something like under 20% humans.JoshuaJSlone said:
The Librarian
Banned
There can be many explanations. For one, the founding of the Federation was mainly pushed forward by Earth, and given that Starfleet headquarters resides on Earth, along with the office of the President, humans are the majority in Starfleet. It's easy to see why the aliens are in the minority, as Starfleet can be seen as mainly a "human" service, so most aliens will enlist within their own planets science teams and such.Nexus Zero said:
So you are starting season 7 for the first time?
Sir Fragula said:
This isn't the case. Remember, the captain hand-picks the crew, and in the case you mentioned, the Vulcan captain had some sort of line of thinking that Vulcans are better than any other race.
Season 3 is good. That being said, that really isn't a good "rule of thumb" when it comes to DS9. There are plenty of episodes that make the view appreciate seeing all the mediocre/boring/bad episodes. "Duet" and "In the Hands of the Prophets" would be those two episodes for season 1. Season 2 definitely has its strong points within the first three episodes, "The Cardassians," "Necessary Evil," "The Maquis (parts 1 and 2)," "The Wire," and "The Jem'Hadar."WyndhamPrice said:
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Right. I was thinking about that when I made the book comment, but didn't actually get around to mentioning it. Been a long time since I read the first Titan book, but I remember them making a big deal about it being the most mixed ship in the fleet.XiaNaphryz said:
WyndhamPrice
Member
Dax01 said:
Oh, I realize this (it's why I said generally), but I still feel that DS9 doesn't really get going until Sisko moves his face furniture around.
The episode was called, Yesterday's Enterprise.Insaniac said:
Here's a clip of that scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09JBaTzJYIQ
WyndhamPrice said:
I disagree. I find early DS9 (all of season 1, almost all of season 2, the majority of season 3) virtually unwatchable. Early TNG is just less fleshed out, but still fundamentally the same show as later TNG. It's basically like TOS transplanted 20 years later, with all the problems that come with that.
Basically, while being episodic was fundamental to the nature of TNG, it failed horribly on DS9 every time it happened.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
Since early DS9 contained much of the same infrastructure and crew that produced TNG in the middle of its run, early DS9 felt remarkably the same; just less inspired. So I can forgive much of it. Early TNG, however, didn't have that same infrastructure in place, so it was a huge mess. There was a revolving door of writers. It had all of the absurdity of TOS without many of the memorable stories. Some of those problems plagued the series throughout its run. While DS9 was often boring, it set up many of the later seasons quite well.
The reason early DS9 fails is because it tried to be both self-contained and episodic. You just can't have both, it gets far too dull.
In TNG, there was something new every episode, even if it wasn't the best thing since sliced bread. In DS9 it was watching the same characters go over the same plots episode after episode because nothing carried over. Never anything new. You could watch the first 5 episodes of DS9 and then not really need to watch any of the rest of the first two seasons (and these were LONG seasons) or most of the third because nothing changed.
In TNG, there was something new every episode, even if it wasn't the best thing since sliced bread. In DS9 it was watching the same characters go over the same plots episode after episode because nothing carried over. Never anything new. You could watch the first 5 episodes of DS9 and then not really need to watch any of the rest of the first two seasons (and these were LONG seasons) or most of the third because nothing changed.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
The Librarian
Banned
The "same" plots? I would like to know your definition of "same."maharg said:
And all of season 1? Yeah, no.
MisterHero
Super Member
Strangely enough I read it last Friday at Barnes & Noble. I actually thought it might have been an older work (new TNG stories? wow!) It was actually very good (especially the story where the picture comes from).XiaNaphryz said:
However, it was very typical of manga to
turn Wesley into a girl and for Riker to make a pass at her
I also read a part of the Star Trek TOS manga I might buy them; there was a part with a bear that was really funny. :lol
benjipwns
Banned
Or because the Federation is a fascist military empire!!!Dax01 said:
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2008/03/is-star-trek-a-fascist-society/
http://www.friesian.com/trek.htm
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NmM4Zjg3YjlmZDI5OTZkNmRmNDg4MTRhMmE4MjM0ZmQ= (or http://volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml for older version with comment board)
I wish I could get paid to write these kind of things.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
While events in the first few seasons of DS9 took far too long to converge, I thought that they went a long way in establishing the various facets of the characters that were important in later seasons. Kira's resentment and distrust and uncertainty of the way that progress needed to be made typified the Bajoran people throughout episodes like Past Prologue, Progress, and Duet - this clear evolution was a strength of early DS9. And each character received important development that that was instrumental later on.maharg said:
Early TNG, on the other hand, took a long time to simply find itself. Most characters got little development. One character was dropped, and another character nearly was. They changed doctors in season two. There were all sorts of hideous episodes that added nothing. The universe took awhile to establish itself, especially since it had to emerge from the shadows of TOS. Season two was better than season one, but it ended with an uninspired clip show - probably because of the strike. Season three, however, immediately started out quite well, and it might have actually been the strongest season. But all of the seasons between three and six were excellent and hard to rate.
Alright- almost done with the first season of TNG.
There is a noticeable change in the structure and direction of the episodes from about 'Too Short a Season' onwards- although I found that particular episode pretty boring (it's the one with the old dude getting younger).
With earlier episodes, it felt as if even the most whimsical thing could put the whole Enterprise in jeopardy- there were too many moments when the ship and crew were directly threatened and each episode just felt like a different, flimsy threat. This changes around half way through the season, when the general scale of the TNG universe seems to encapsulate a broader range of shit rather than just what happens on the Enterprise.
I was a bit dissapointed with the episode '10100101' or whatever. When the Enterprise docked with that big fuck-off space station for repairs, I was hoping to see how aspects of the Federation operated above just that of Picard's crew, but then it was "Oh noes, teh aliens stole our ship." Although I did get a better apppreciation of Federation stuff in the ep where Wesley (who I fucking hate) goes to do his Starfleet test and fails. I think this was the same episode where Picard was under investigation and subsequently offered a posting as Admiral. The investigation offered a good recap of all the previous stuff and put it all into perspective.
What I particularly liked about that episode was that it was the first indication of malicious forces operating to bring down the Federation- but then the issue is left unresolved for future episodes. This is the first instance if a loose plot point being left open for later explanation, so hopefully this grows into a more frequent development in later seasons (no spoilers pls).
'Home Soil' stood out as one of the better episodes- the scientific premise of the planet was loosely based on real science for once (I'm a geologist/palaeontologist), and the whole micro-organism thingy living in the sand wasn't as far-fetched as some of the other shit they try to pass off as science. The episode also stood out for it's better-than-average acting of the incidental cast playing the scientists on the planet- maybe they got more money to spend on better extras by this stage.
And the Klingon one where Worf has a personal conflict between the 'rescued' Klingons and the other Klingon guy was also a big improvement over earlier shit. Worf is still a pretty weak character, but at least it fleshes out some of his background and introduce the Klingons for the TNG series. My impression is that the Klingons are reluctant but co-operative with the Federation but this may become more complicated later.
What I really feel is missing is any kind of constant malicious threat to both the Enterprise and Starfleet. The whole Q thing is a bit flimsy, and the Ferengi come across as 'mischieveous goblin leprechauns' and are hardly threatening.
My guess is that the Borg come to fill this role.
Any way, I really did enjoy the first half of season 1, even if those episodes were a bit camp and 'monster of the week' kind of bullshit. I enjoyed those episodes with the same level of entertainment one can get from watching the old-school Doctor Who episodes, where the audience is kind of laughing along with the terrible set design and cliched settings, but still following the main story with a reasonable level of emotional investment.
Will finish the first season tomorrow.
There is a noticeable change in the structure and direction of the episodes from about 'Too Short a Season' onwards- although I found that particular episode pretty boring (it's the one with the old dude getting younger).
With earlier episodes, it felt as if even the most whimsical thing could put the whole Enterprise in jeopardy- there were too many moments when the ship and crew were directly threatened and each episode just felt like a different, flimsy threat. This changes around half way through the season, when the general scale of the TNG universe seems to encapsulate a broader range of shit rather than just what happens on the Enterprise.
I was a bit dissapointed with the episode '10100101' or whatever. When the Enterprise docked with that big fuck-off space station for repairs, I was hoping to see how aspects of the Federation operated above just that of Picard's crew, but then it was "Oh noes, teh aliens stole our ship." Although I did get a better apppreciation of Federation stuff in the ep where Wesley (who I fucking hate) goes to do his Starfleet test and fails. I think this was the same episode where Picard was under investigation and subsequently offered a posting as Admiral. The investigation offered a good recap of all the previous stuff and put it all into perspective.
What I particularly liked about that episode was that it was the first indication of malicious forces operating to bring down the Federation- but then the issue is left unresolved for future episodes. This is the first instance if a loose plot point being left open for later explanation, so hopefully this grows into a more frequent development in later seasons (no spoilers pls).
'Home Soil' stood out as one of the better episodes- the scientific premise of the planet was loosely based on real science for once (I'm a geologist/palaeontologist), and the whole micro-organism thingy living in the sand wasn't as far-fetched as some of the other shit they try to pass off as science. The episode also stood out for it's better-than-average acting of the incidental cast playing the scientists on the planet- maybe they got more money to spend on better extras by this stage.
And the Klingon one where Worf has a personal conflict between the 'rescued' Klingons and the other Klingon guy was also a big improvement over earlier shit. Worf is still a pretty weak character, but at least it fleshes out some of his background and introduce the Klingons for the TNG series. My impression is that the Klingons are reluctant but co-operative with the Federation but this may become more complicated later.
What I really feel is missing is any kind of constant malicious threat to both the Enterprise and Starfleet. The whole Q thing is a bit flimsy, and the Ferengi come across as 'mischieveous goblin leprechauns' and are hardly threatening.
My guess is that the Borg come to fill this role.
Any way, I really did enjoy the first half of season 1, even if those episodes were a bit camp and 'monster of the week' kind of bullshit. I enjoyed those episodes with the same level of entertainment one can get from watching the old-school Doctor Who episodes, where the audience is kind of laughing along with the terrible set design and cliched settings, but still following the main story with a reasonable level of emotional investment.
Will finish the first season tomorrow.
The Librarian
Banned
Good summary.
Well Im done with season 1. I got a bit bored towards the end- not sure if it was because of tired scriptwriting in later episodes or my viewer fatigue. The last two episodes capped it off pretty damned well. The conspiracy episode had a very dark undertone running through it and was surprisingly violent, and the final episode was also solid. The introduction of the Romulans at the very end felt like a very arbitrary way of setting up their role in future seasons, but I liked seeing the resurrected cryogenic patients perspective of the future- it could have been shit but was executed reasonably well.
I am a bit tired of Star Trek for the moment and will take a break before returning for season 2. I describe the viewing experience as entertaining but not addictive. TV shows these days are all about cliff-hanger endings and rampant speculation over loose plot points, but I remain appreciative of what TNG contributed to the development of Sci-Fi on television.
Characters I like:
Picard: Patrick Stewart stands head and shoulders above the rest of the cast. Hats off to the man for his consistency, even when sharing scenes with painfully ordinary actors. Effectively carries the show for the first half of season 1. His lines could be garbage but his delivery would still be stellar and he understands the role completely.
Data: For a robot, the character arrives pretty much fully-realised from the first episode, and has a lot of input into key scenes. By no means my favourite character, but is consistent and it is a role/character that could have been completely ruined by a lesser actor very easily.
Troi: Probably best kept as a second-tier character. I only realised when reaching the last few discs of season 1 that there are whole episodes where she doesnt have a single line, and others where she is completely absent! Whenever the emphasis of an episode is on Troi and shes not just providing counsel (like the episode she was supposed to get married), its apparent how one-dimensional and plain her acting is. But she was introduced as an advisory character early on- a role I prefer her in and which she should probably stick to. Most of her acting involves just looking wistfully about the set, and providing a supportive arm around the shoulder of people feeling glum, but I still like her. A good set of tits helped her win my favour early on, although on closer inspection
this is probably the cunning work of sticky-tape and a costume with a low neck-line.
Riker: In earlier episodes, his facial expressions of respect and admiration for Picard were all a bit too much- every time he smiled it looked like he wanted to tongue-kiss Picards bald head each time he was impressed with his actions. Was a bit too flimsy in the first half of season 1 but has become much bolder. Kudos to the man for having his fair share of sex with multiple partners, but I didnt like his falling for the ginger chick from the Jazz bar in the Holodeck- I thought hed be more sensible than that. Needs to be more badarse but hes a great all-round character.
Characters that have yet to win me over:
Worf: Still a bit flat. Not sure what his exact role is, although he made a few gains in the episode Heart of Glory
Geordi: He is at best when paired with Data, ironically providing the eyes for Data when they are making investigations. The two characters make an interesting team- Geordi provides Data with his observations, who then makes interpretations against his own repository of information. He seems to understand Datas strengths and usefulness better than the rest of the crew. I like the character, but they need to do a lot more with him.
Dr Crusher: Probably the most down-to-earth and human role on the deck, given her role as a mother. Shes not entirely convincing as a doctor, and needs to do more than just squeeze plastic props against the crewmembers necks in order to convince me otherwise. She improved heaps towards the end but is still a bit simple. I expect theyll find plenty for her to do after her return in season 3.
Characters I dont, and probably wont ever like:
Wesley: Not as annoying in later episodes when he has his rainbow sweater and tidier haircut. A fucking pain in the arse in any episodes you see him wearing that stupid XXXXL-sized knitted sweater. However, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode Coming of Age- partly because I got to see a conventional part of Federation training and lifestyle, but hes still a fucking geek.
Yar: Boring and unattractive. I welcome her absence from the show, and she was hardly missed in the final episodes.
I am a bit tired of Star Trek for the moment and will take a break before returning for season 2. I describe the viewing experience as entertaining but not addictive. TV shows these days are all about cliff-hanger endings and rampant speculation over loose plot points, but I remain appreciative of what TNG contributed to the development of Sci-Fi on television.
Characters I like:
Picard: Patrick Stewart stands head and shoulders above the rest of the cast. Hats off to the man for his consistency, even when sharing scenes with painfully ordinary actors. Effectively carries the show for the first half of season 1. His lines could be garbage but his delivery would still be stellar and he understands the role completely.
Data: For a robot, the character arrives pretty much fully-realised from the first episode, and has a lot of input into key scenes. By no means my favourite character, but is consistent and it is a role/character that could have been completely ruined by a lesser actor very easily.
Troi: Probably best kept as a second-tier character. I only realised when reaching the last few discs of season 1 that there are whole episodes where she doesnt have a single line, and others where she is completely absent! Whenever the emphasis of an episode is on Troi and shes not just providing counsel (like the episode she was supposed to get married), its apparent how one-dimensional and plain her acting is. But she was introduced as an advisory character early on- a role I prefer her in and which she should probably stick to. Most of her acting involves just looking wistfully about the set, and providing a supportive arm around the shoulder of people feeling glum, but I still like her. A good set of tits helped her win my favour early on, although on closer inspection
look for side-boob
Riker: In earlier episodes, his facial expressions of respect and admiration for Picard were all a bit too much- every time he smiled it looked like he wanted to tongue-kiss Picards bald head each time he was impressed with his actions. Was a bit too flimsy in the first half of season 1 but has become much bolder. Kudos to the man for having his fair share of sex with multiple partners, but I didnt like his falling for the ginger chick from the Jazz bar in the Holodeck- I thought hed be more sensible than that. Needs to be more badarse but hes a great all-round character.
Characters that have yet to win me over:
Worf: Still a bit flat. Not sure what his exact role is, although he made a few gains in the episode Heart of Glory
Geordi: He is at best when paired with Data, ironically providing the eyes for Data when they are making investigations. The two characters make an interesting team- Geordi provides Data with his observations, who then makes interpretations against his own repository of information. He seems to understand Datas strengths and usefulness better than the rest of the crew. I like the character, but they need to do a lot more with him.
Dr Crusher: Probably the most down-to-earth and human role on the deck, given her role as a mother. Shes not entirely convincing as a doctor, and needs to do more than just squeeze plastic props against the crewmembers necks in order to convince me otherwise. She improved heaps towards the end but is still a bit simple. I expect theyll find plenty for her to do after her return in season 3.
Characters I dont, and probably wont ever like:
Wesley: Not as annoying in later episodes when he has his rainbow sweater and tidier haircut. A fucking pain in the arse in any episodes you see him wearing that stupid XXXXL-sized knitted sweater. However, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode Coming of Age- partly because I got to see a conventional part of Federation training and lifestyle, but hes still a fucking geek.
Yar: Boring and unattractive. I welcome her absence from the show, and she was hardly missed in the final episodes.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I think the first season of TNG suffered from using the old Star Trek Phase II script ideas:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Phase_II
But maybe it was because they tried to keep the new series too close to the original. Things got a lot better later on.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Phase_II
But maybe it was because they tried to keep the new series too close to the original. Things got a lot better later on.
Bernbaum said:
I think Yar is a fairly underrated character and they set up some seeds for actually interesting character development for her (coming from a seedier part of the Federation). She's never quite completely gone, though, and I think the actress improved in her later brief appearances. Yesterday's Enterprise is one of my favorite episodes, and it's in part because of how they handled her.
maharg said:
This side of her was mentioned very briefly and could have been missed my viewers not paying attention. I was actuallu hoping to see where that backstory was fleshed out for the character, because I thought there was a lot pof potential there and it could have helped ad depth to what I thought was a throw-away character.
The only real representation of this was when her thoughts manifested themselves physically and she appeared in her stree-rat raggy costume being pursued by weird under-dweller looking baddies. The scene didn't really work that well and it was all we ever got. Shame that her only redeeming quality was never developed fully.
Escape Goat
Member
Worf became a remarkable character. He had 11 years of development though :lol
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
They could have just left it as is.MisterHero said:
StopMakingSense
Member
maharg said:
FWIW, "Episodic" tends to mean "self-contained episodes." The word you are looking for is Serial.
EIther way, Season two, once you get past the boring three-part episode opening is quite well done, and doesn't suffer as much from the "same episode but different" that season one has a bit going on. While Season 2 still has a lot of boring Bajoran politics in it, it really starts to delve into the characters.
The Librarian
Banned
And Cardassia. Hardly being "self contained."maharg said:
The Librarian
Banned
Um, as did season 1 of DS9. Sisko being the emissary of the prophets, and Kai-Winn's lust for power.maharg said:
"Duet" is a far better episode than any found in B5 season one.
SpoonyBard
Banned
maharg said:
Yeah, and the first season of B5 has episodes like And The Sky Full of Stars and Babylon Squared that are pretty much better than any DS9 episode from any season. The pain comes from watching episodes like Infection, but there aren't that many of them
The Librarian
Banned
nvm
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
SpoonyBard said:Yeah, and the first season of B5 has episodes like And The Sky Full of Stars and Babylon Squared that are pretty much better than any DS9 episode from any season. The pain comes from watching episodes like Infection, but there aren't that many of them
:lol
No.
It's pretty laughable how utterly embarrassing and laughable Troi is in Season 1. I mean, her early scenes in the pilot pretty much leave you laughing hysterically. I really did eventually like how they developed her and Crusher, and the Crusher episode "Remember Me" is still one of my favorite episodes of the series.
I do think it's a pity that they cast Crosby as Tasha rather than someone who had the patience to see how this large ensemble show was going to develop before bailing on it. It would have been nice to have a female continue in that rather masculine role on the ship, but the show definitely was a step up for women roles from Uhura. We eventually got that in characters like Roe and Kira I suppose.
I really need to watch DS9, it lost me during the first season and by the time I wanted to get back into the show it had become so heavily serialized that I just could never get my head around the arcs. Hopefully it sees some sort of Blu-Ray release soon (not necessarily in HD) or I'll just join Netflix with the express purpose of just watching that show or try to find them for deals.
I do think it's a pity that they cast Crosby as Tasha rather than someone who had the patience to see how this large ensemble show was going to develop before bailing on it. It would have been nice to have a female continue in that rather masculine role on the ship, but the show definitely was a step up for women roles from Uhura. We eventually got that in characters like Roe and Kira I suppose.
I really need to watch DS9, it lost me during the first season and by the time I wanted to get back into the show it had become so heavily serialized that I just could never get my head around the arcs. Hopefully it sees some sort of Blu-Ray release soon (not necessarily in HD) or I'll just join Netflix with the express purpose of just watching that show or try to find them for deals.
StopMakingSense
Member
Can we all just agree to keep the B5 in the B5 thread and the DS9 in the Trek thread before this gets ugly?
The Librarian
Banned
If you are going to watch DS9, just join Netfilx or try to find deals. I don't think DS9 will see a Blu-Ray release any time soon, if at all.teiresias said:
Make sure to post your impressions here, either way, though.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
As a fan of sporks, I could not pass up this Star Trek Limited Edition Titanium Spork. :lol
Unfortunately if you haven't already you're a bit late to jump on this, but something similar should be available in the future:
Unfortunately if you haven't already you're a bit late to jump on this, but something similar should be available in the future:
Read "When Worlds Collide" the Star Trek comic in the current issue of Wired. It is all kinds of awesome.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
CiSTM said:
I actually liked the William Shatner novels about Kirk coming back after Generations. Have also heard good things about "Twist of Faith" a continuation of Deep Space Nine, and have it my "to read" pile but haven't started it yet.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Okay, I finished watching Enterprise again. The first season wasn't as bad as I remembered, but the second season was pretty boring overall... Things just didn't get any better. Third season was a lot more interesting, but the ending of the story arc could have been done better. It felt somehow sudden now, but maybe that was because I watched several episodes in a row...
The fourth season was a lot better than the previous ones. Maybe bit of fanservice, but good fanservice, so I'm not complaining. The two-part mirror universe episode was great, way better than those campy DS9 mirror episodes. Klingon and Brent Spiner eps were also great, if there had been more stuff like that on the early episodes the series would surely have lived longer than four seasons.
The fourth season was a lot better than the previous ones. Maybe bit of fanservice, but good fanservice, so I'm not complaining. The two-part mirror universe episode was great, way better than those campy DS9 mirror episodes. Klingon and Brent Spiner eps were also great, if there had been more stuff like that on the early episodes the series would surely have lived longer than four seasons.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Has anyone gotten around to reading the Star Trek Countdown comic? It's written by Abrams and crew, and is meant to be a prequel to the upcoming movie.
It's a short 4 parter. I really liked it. It
really well.
It's a short 4 parter. I really liked it. It
connects to the regular continuity