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The Hobbit trilogy - News, rumours and discussion

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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I find Tolkien's life very interesting but unfortunately it's not very action-packed (with the obvious exception of his WWI service, but even then he spent much of the time in hospital). I fervently hope that the filmmakers behind the biopics resist the temptation to "spice things up".
I expect both to be spiced up. I imagine Christopher and the Tolkien family will react similarly to A.W Lawrence on been presented with the script for 'The Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. His absolute rejection of it and subsequent falling out with the producers led to the film been renamed 'Lawrence of Arabia'. A masterpiece of filmmaking certainly, but a woefully inaccurate depiction of Thomas' exploits during that period of his life.

I haven't much hope for the biopics, but the production of them will be interesting to follow. Casting announcements will certainly garner the most attention.
 

Vashetti

Banned
Edmond Dantès;145192681 said:
Over $750,000,000 to produce and nearly $3 Billion in return when all is said and done. Not a bad bit of business for WB and Middle-earth enterprises.

They made that back, and more with just AUJ.

Plus all the DVD/Blu-ray/Digital sales on top, and then the DVD/Blu-ray/Digital release of the EE for each movie a few months later.

And all the merchandise on top. Crazy stuff.
 

Cheebo

Banned
They made that back, and more with just AUJ.

Plus all the DVD/Blu-ray/Digital sales on top, and then the DVD/Blu-ray/Digital release of the EE for each movie a few months later.

And all the merchandise on top. Crazy stuff.
That is incorrect. Studios don't keep all of the box-office returns. Let alone the majority. WB likely got under half of what AUJ made back, especially due to the split in countries like China that heavily favor the theaters.

WB obviously profited from the trilogy when all is said and done. But AUJ alone? That is literally impossible based on the returns even with home video/merchandise. Not even factoring in that that budget doesn't include marketing at all.
 

Vashetti

Banned
That is completely incorrect. Studios don't keep all of the box-office returns. Let alone the majority. WB got under half of what AUJ made back, especially due to the split in countries like China that heavily favor the theaters.

WB obviously profited from the trilogy. But AUJ alone? That is literally impossible based on the returns. Not even factoring in that that budget doesn't include marketing at all.

Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Whatever the case, the budgets of the two biopics will be minimal in comparison.

I hope allusions to Tolkien's inspirations, whether direct (his classical studies, Sarehole Mill, the South Downs etc.) or at a subconscious level (the spider in South Africa etc.) are not too blatant, if evoked at all.

Casting is extremely important of course. Tolkien's diction was quite interesting, unintelligible to some (including his students), so that is something to consider.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Completely disagree having read the book straight after watching AuJ & DoS.

Additionally, the line of thinking that is "the book has razor sharp focus on Bilbo only", is something of a myth that has developed either from decade long memories or not having read the books at all recently.
Actually, I read the book again right after watching the first movie. That's how I arrived at that conclusion in the first place.
 

bengraven

Member
We have the books, we have the movies still to pore over, we have the massive communities here, on places like Reddit, theOneRing. Plenty of juice left in the machine.



Also, speaking of Reddit, here was an interesting question which I think most of us could answer:

"Could Gandalf have really turned Sam into a toad?"
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
We have the books, we have the movies still to pore over, we have the massive communities here, on places like Reddit, theOneRing. Plenty of juice left in the machine.



Also, speaking of Reddit, here was an interesting question which I think most of us could answer:

"Could Gandalf have really turned Sam into a toad?"
Fun question.

Physical self-metamorphosis of a raiment by one of the Holy Ones, most certainly.

Metamorphosis of a Child of Iluvatar; a direct infringement on Iluvatar's theme, certainly not.
 

Loxley

Member
So now that I've had more time for BOTFA (as it is) to sink in, I guess I can comment on some isolated aspects of it that feel the EE wouldn't make a much of a difference on. Spoilers marked.

- I enjoyed
the way Jackson depicted Smaug's demise. Obviously it didn't happen quite the way it was done in the book, but the changes felt earned.
- On that note, I think Jackson was successful in rounding out Bard as a character by bringing his children into the mix. Granted, his daughters didn't do a heck of lot aside from running and screaming, but Bain's inclusion felt very natural. Hence why
I feel his role in the killing of Smaug felt earned.
- I never once felt Bard was a super-hero, which was nice. He genuinely felt like an every-man who ended up in an extraordinary situation. Luke Evans proved to be a great choice for the role, and Bard has become one of my personal favorite aspects of the films.
- Really, even though it was apparent that chunks of it were cut, that whole intro sequence was well done and I'm looking forward to seeing the complete version.
- I dug the various designs of the
Nazgûl, even though their appearance is inconsistent with the way the Witch King looked during his brief encounter with Radagast in AUJ.
- I'm not sure how I feel about
Galadriel's depiction during her momentary freak-out at Dol Guldur, just from an artistic perspective. I'm probably not the first person to make comparisons to the demon girl from The Ring. I know this was meant to be a partial call-back to her appearance during the "test" scene in Fellowship, but I wasn't entirely convinced that it was a call-back which was necessary.
- Up to BOFTA, Thorin had become increasingly bipolar, which I think many (myself included) figured was just inconsistent writing. But it seems that was the objective all-along since Thorin hit full-on paranoid schizophrenia because of the 'cursed' treasure. I'm glad they actually ended up having a reason for Thorin's constant mood-swings, but I'm not overly fond of the whole "curse" aspect.
- I feel the same way about the whole Kili/Tauriel thing as pretty much everyone else does, so I won't harp on that.
- I really disliked the seemingly random decision to suddenly focus on Alfrid as comic-relief, it felt way too forced and never amounted to anything (we couldn't keep Stephen Fry around instead?)
-
While the whole Legolas vs. Bolg Round 2 fight felt like a cartoon (especially compared to their tango in DOS), the Thorin vs. Azog fight felt appropriately climactic without coming off as completely ridiculous. That said, I didn't like that Beorn was robbed of his pivotal role in the climax. Sure, it would have still been different from the book, but I think it would have been much more interesting of it had been Beorn taking on Bolg on that collapsed masonry instead of Legolas.

The one aspect of this trilogy that I feel has been stellar from the start has been the production design. From Goblin Town to Gundabad
(which was a treat to see)
, I have loved the art direction from the beginning. Reading the Hobbit Chronicles: Art & Design books as the films have been released has - once again - given me a lot of insight into just how much work Weta Workshop + Weta Digital put into these films and how much care and consideration they put into designing the most minute of details.
 

Ixion

Member
So now that I've had more time for BOTFA (as it is) to sink in, I guess I can comment on some isolated aspects of it that feel the EE wouldn't make a much of a difference on. Spoilers marked.

- I enjoyed
the way Jackson depicted Smaug's demise. Obviously it didn't happen quite the way it was done in the book, but the changes felt earned.
- On that note, I think Jackson was successful in rounding out Bard as a character by bringing his children into the mix. Granted, his daughters didn't do a heck of lot aside from running and screaming, but Bain's inclusion felt very natural. Hence why
I feel his role in the killing of Smaug felt earned.
- I never once felt Bard was a super-hero, which was nice. He genuinely felt like an every-man who ended up in an extraordinary situation. Luke Evans proved to be a great choice for the role, and Bard has become one of my personal favorite aspects of the films.
- Really, even though it was apparent that chunks of it were cut, that whole intro sequence was well done and I'm looking forward to seeing the complete version.
- I dug the various designs of the
Nazgûl, even though their appearance is inconsistent with the way the Witch King looked during his brief encounter with Radagast in AUJ.
- I'm not sure how I feel about
Galadriel's depiction during her momentary freak-out at Dol Guldur, just from an artistic perspective. I'm probably not the first person to make comparisons to the demon girl from The Ring. I know this was meant to be a partial call-back to her appearance during the "test" scene in Fellowship, but I wasn't entirely convinced that it was a call-back which was necessary.
- Up to BOFTA, Thorin had become increasingly bipolar, which I think many (myself included) figured was just inconsistent writing. But it seems that was the objective all-along since Thorin hit full-on paranoid schizophrenia because of the 'cursed' treasure. I'm glad they actually ended up having a reason for Thorin's constant mood-swings, but I'm not overly fond of the whole "curse" aspect.
- I feel the same way about the whole Kili/Tauriel thing as pretty much everyone else does, so I won't harp on that.
- I really disliked the seemingly random decision to suddenly focus on Alfrid as comic-relief, it felt way too forced and never amounted to anything (we couldn't keep Stephen Fry around instead?)
-
While the whole Legolas vs. Bolg Round 2 fight felt like a cartoon (especially compared to their tango in DOS), the Thorin vs. Azog fight felt appropriately climactic without coming off as completely ridiculous. That said, I didn't like that Beorn was robbed of his pivotal role in the climax. Sure, it would have still been different from the book, but I think it would have been much more interesting of it had been Beorn taking on Bolg on that collapsed masonry instead of Legolas.

The one aspect of this trilogy that I feel has been stellar from the start has been the production design. From Goblin Town to Gundabad
(which was a treat to see)
, I have loved the art direction from the beginning. Reading the Chronicles: Art & Design books as the films have been released has once again given me a lot of insight into just how much work Weta Workshop + Weta Digital put into these films and how much care and consideration they put into designing the most minute of details.

Good post. Regarding Alfrid, I think a better version of that character was Benny from The Mummy. Still a one-dimensional comic relief character, but he was more important to the story and had a proper ending.
 

kingocfs

Member
So now that I've had more time for BOTFA (as it is) to sink in, I guess I can comment on some isolated aspects of it that feel the EE wouldn't make a much of a difference on. Spoilers marked.

I agree with most of your post except for the
Thorin vs. Azog fight. The sequence when he slowly slips under the ice after catching the block got a sizable laugh from my theater, and I thought it was deserved. It came off as silly and out of place, killed the mood entirely for me. Other than that I thought it was good.

I thought Azog looked phenomenal in this movie, but I've been a proponent of his design throughout the trilogy despite them going full CG. He looked especially great in HFR, IMO. AUJ included. Bolg was
appropriately hard to kill and felt really intimidating. I thought the Fíli and Kíli death scenes were ruthless and set the tone for those final fights really well. There was a lot to like in that last string of scenes despite an awfully rushed ending that just felt amateurish. It was as if he was afraid of ROTK criticism again.
 

Loxley

Member
I agree with most of your post except for the
Thorin vs. Azog fight. The sequence when he slowly slips under the ice after catching the block got a sizable laugh from my theater, and I thought it was deserved. It came off as silly and out of place, killed the mood entirely for me. Other than that I thought it was good.

I thought Azog looked phenomenal in this movie, but I've been a proponent of his design throughout the trilogy despite them going full CG. He looked especially great in HFR, IMO. AUJ included. Bolg was
appropriately hard to kill and felt really intimidating. I thought the Fíli and Kíli death scenes were ruthless and set the tone for those final fights really well. There was a lot to like in that last string of scenes despite an awfully rushed ending that just felt amateurish. It was as if he was afraid of ROTK criticism again.

I've liked Azog's design from the get-go, it's a shame that it wasn't a design they came across when Conan Stevens was still going to play him through prosthetics. And I agree about his CGI being great in BOFTA. He looked much better in DOS as well, but was definitely the most refined in this last film.
 
Can anyone suggest a good fan edit of both An Unexpected Journey and DoS and where I could find them? I should add that I am not a Tolkien purist. I just want something better that what we got. Thanks!
 
Rewatched AUJ, DoS and FOTR these last few days and found the thing that I think took me out of the movie the most while watching them.

There's a *lot* of scenes in the trilogy that are filmed in a sort of twilight and it looks terrible. Everything's shiny and lit weird and it just looks like terrible green screen. I remember reading somewhere that 3D + 48FPS forced them to change the colors somehow. Still, the color just seems off compared to LOTR
 
Rewatched AUJ, DoS and FOTR these last few days and found the thing that I think took me out of the movie the most while watching them.

There's a *lot* of scenes in the trilogy that are filmed in a sort of twilight and it looks terrible. Everything's shiny and lit weird and it just looks like terrible green screen. I remember reading somewhere that 3D + 48FPS forced them to change the colors somehow. Still, the color just seems off compared to LOTR

I know what you mean and it has been bothering me too, but that type of lighting has also been used in the LOTR trilogy, although more sparingly. I've just rewatched TTT yesterday and Osgiliath has the same look, as does the end of Helm's Deep. I know it's probably artistic intent, but to my eyes it looks a bit unpleasant and artificial (which it is, of course), which clashes with the majority of beautiful naturalistic looking outdoor shots in the LOTR films. Of course there's much more of that in the Hobbit films, and overwhelmingly so in TBOTFA.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Weta Digital's Joe Letteri Talks The Hobbit, Batman v Superman, the Avatar sequels

Most importantly for us;


  • 1:15 – Says they’re already working on the extended cut of The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. One sequence in particular is a chariot scene on the ice that was glimpsed in the trailer.
  • 2:36 – Has he heard anything about even more deleted scenes from The Lord of the Rings?
  • 17:03 – Talks about the collaboration process with Peter Jackson on The Hobbit movies. Says they created 150+ characters for The Battle of the Five Armies.
 

Vashetti

Banned
Edmond Dantès;145321195 said:
Weta Digital's Joe Letteri Talks The Hobbit, Batman v Superman, the Avatar sequels

Most importantly for us;


  • 1:15 – Says they’re already working on the extended cut of The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. One sequence in particular is a chariot scene on the ice that was glimpsed in the trailer.
  • 2:36 – Has he heard anything about even more deleted scenes from The Lord of the Rings?
  • 17:03 – Talks about the collaboration process with Peter Jackson on The Hobbit movies. Says they created 150+ characters for The Battle of the Five Armies.

giphy.gif


Never have I been so excited for an EE of these films. This one needs it the most.
 

Curufinwe

Member
I was more impatient for the RotK EE to see the demise of Saruman, and when I realized they took out Gandalf vs the Witch King scene which had been teased. I still don't know why they had him humble Gandalf and break his staff when they could have just pasted in the perfect scene from the books... but anyway.

I agree with most of your post except for the
Thorin vs. Azog fight. The sequence when he slowly slips under the ice after catching the block got a sizable laugh from my theater, and I thought it was deserved. It came off as silly and out of place, killed the mood entirely for me. Other than that I thought it was good.

I thought Azog looked phenomenal in this movie, but I've been a proponent of his design throughout the trilogy despite them going full CG. He looked especially great in HFR, IMO. AUJ included. Bolg was
appropriately hard to kill and felt really intimidating. I thought the Fíli and Kíli death scenes were ruthless and set the tone for those final fights really well. There was a lot to like in that last string of scenes despite an awfully rushed ending that just felt amateurish. It was as if he was afraid of ROTK criticism again.

Ruthless is a good word for it. The PG-13 requirements made them a little too sanitized but there's nothing you can do about that, except wait for the EE perhaps.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
I was more impatient for the RotK EE to see the demise of Saruman, and when I realized they took out Gandalf vs the Witch King scene which had been teased. I still don't know why they had him humble Gandalf and break his staff when they could have just pasted in the perfect scene from the books... but anyway.

Because Jackson is a hack.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Don't change my precious book.

You can acknowledge the quality of the movie while still pointing out the flaws compared to the book. I mean it goes without saying the book is far superior than the films after all. Less so for the LOTR films though which stand on their own a lot better than the incomprehensible mess known as The Hobbit films.
 

JB1981

Member
You can acknowledge the quality of the movie while still pointing out the flaws compared to the book. I mean it goes without saying the book is far superior than the films after all. Less so for the LOTR films though which stand on their own a lot better than the incomprehensible mess known as The Hobbit films.

The man who directed Return of the King (the movie he was referring to) is no hack.
 

Cheebo

Banned
The man who directed Return of the King (the movie he was referring to) is no hack.

Return of the King was not the work of a hack. It was fantastic. The Hobbit films on the other hand.... that is very much the work of the hack. Those movies completely destroyed everything good about the source novel at nearly every level.
 

Curufinwe

Member
Return of the King was not the work of a hack. It was fantastic. The Hobbit films on the other hand.... that is very much the work of the hack. Those movies completely destroyed everything good about the source novel at nearly every level.

I've seen similar comments made about the LotR movies.
 

bengraven

Member
I was saying this in the other thread, but I finally watched the EE of Unexpected Journey and the films finally "clicked" for me.

The pacing feels more along the lines of LOTR - they breathe better this way.

Can't wait for Desolation EE, which is going in the mail today.

Edmond Dantès;145256260 said:
Fun question.

Physical self-metamorphosis of a raiment by one of the Holy Ones, most certainly.

Metamorphosis of a Child of Iluvatar; a direct infringement on Iluvatar's theme, certainly not.

Yeah, I was thinking something similar. His powers of transformation may be possible, but in doing so he would be acting as another Melkor - creating something, perverting something. The act itself would be against his nature.

Much the opposite of creating a flame to warm a company or start some acorns on fire.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Don't change my precious book.
It has more to do with Jackson thinking that Gandalf having his staff shattered by a ring wraith was a reasonable thing to do.

"Oh what a cool scene! The most powerful agent of good just got depowered (since having a staff broken was kinda presented as a big deal before) and wrecked by some random dude! Maaan! That was awesome film making!!!!"

It's like Superman getting stomped by Black Canary to the degree that he ends up in a wheelcair. It should never happen because it's completely inconsistent with the basic rules of the world.

I guess it does have it's brodude appeal, but come on.

That scene never should've been written much less filmed.
 
So now that I've had more time for BOTFA (as it is) to sink in, I guess I can comment on some isolated aspects of it that feel the EE wouldn't make a much of a difference on. Spoilers marked.

- I enjoyed
the way Jackson depicted Smaug's demise. Obviously it didn't happen quite the way it was done in the book, but the changes felt earned.
- On that note, I think Jackson was successful in rounding out Bard as a character by bringing his children into the mix. Granted, his daughters didn't do a heck of lot aside from running and screaming, but Bain's inclusion felt very natural. Hence why
I feel his role in the killing of Smaug felt earned.
- I never once felt Bard was a super-hero, which was nice. He genuinely felt like an every-man who ended up in an extraordinary situation. Luke Evans proved to be a great choice for the role, and Bard has become one of my personal favorite aspects of the films.
- Really, even though it was apparent that chunks of it were cut, that whole intro sequence was well done and I'm looking forward to seeing the complete version.
- I dug the various designs of the
Nazgûl, even though their appearance is inconsistent with the way the Witch King looked during his brief encounter with Radagast in AUJ.
- I'm not sure how I feel about
Galadriel's depiction during her momentary freak-out at Dol Guldur, just from an artistic perspective. I'm probably not the first person to make comparisons to the demon girl from The Ring. I know this was meant to be a partial call-back to her appearance during the "test" scene in Fellowship, but I wasn't entirely convinced that it was a call-back which was necessary.
- Up to BOFTA, Thorin had become increasingly bipolar, which I think many (myself included) figured was just inconsistent writing. But it seems that was the objective all-along since Thorin hit full-on paranoid schizophrenia because of the 'cursed' treasure. I'm glad they actually ended up having a reason for Thorin's constant mood-swings, but I'm not overly fond of the whole "curse" aspect.
- I feel the same way about the whole Kili/Tauriel thing as pretty much everyone else does, so I won't harp on that.
- I really disliked the seemingly random decision to suddenly focus on Alfrid as comic-relief, it felt way too forced and never amounted to anything (we couldn't keep Stephen Fry around instead?)
-
While the whole Legolas vs. Bolg Round 2 fight felt like a cartoon (especially compared to their tango in DOS), the Thorin vs. Azog fight felt appropriately climactic without coming off as completely ridiculous. That said, I didn't like that Beorn was robbed of his pivotal role in the climax. Sure, it would have still been different from the book, but I think it would have been much more interesting of it had been Beorn taking on Bolg on that collapsed masonry instead of Legolas.

The one aspect of this trilogy that I feel has been stellar from the start has been the production design. From Goblin Town to Gundabad
(which was a treat to see)
, I have loved the art direction from the beginning. Reading the Hobbit Chronicles: Art & Design books as the films have been released has - once again - given me a lot of insight into just how much work Weta Workshop + Weta Digital put into these films and how much care and consideration they put into designing the most minute of details.

A lot of people also seem to have a problem with Alfrid not getting his comeuppance. However, should Bard have delivered that, it would have elevated him above an everyman and made him a hero--something he desperately tried not to be. Didn't care for Alfrid at all, but it was a solid decision to let him go. It grounded the Bard as nothing but a man trying to survive for his children.
 
Edmond Dantès;145321195 said:
Weta Digital's Joe Letteri Talks The Hobbit, Batman v Superman, the Avatar sequels

Most importantly for us;


  • 1:15 – Says they’re already working on the extended cut of The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. One sequence in particular is a chariot scene on the ice that was glimpsed in the trailer.
  • 2:36 – Has he heard anything about even more deleted scenes from The Lord of the Rings?
  • 17:03 – Talks about the collaboration process with Peter Jackson on The Hobbit movies. Says they created 150+ characters for The Battle of the Five Armies.

I remember thinking "this is the scene with that damn chariot" and then it never happened. wtf.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
A lot of people also seem to have a problem with Alfrid not getting his comeuppance. However, should Bard have delivered that, it would have elevated him above an everyman and made him a hero--something he desperately tried not to be. Didn't care for Alfrid at all, but it was a solid decision to let him go. It grounded the Bard as nothing but a man trying to survive for his children.

Bard's not an everyman. He's a son of the town's prior lord, and then they made him the leader. Nothing in his background makes him an everyman type of character.
 

Loxley

Member
For the record, when I made reference to Bard being an every-man, it was just in reference to him coming across as human and flawed - not commentary on his heritage.
 
We have the books, we have the movies still to pore over, we have the massive communities here, on places like Reddit, theOneRing. Plenty of juice left in the machine.



Also, speaking of Reddit, here was an interesting question which I think most of us could answer:

"Could Gandalf have really turned Sam into a toad?"

nah son
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
For the record, when I made reference to Bard being an every-man, it was just in reference to him coming across as human and flawed - not commentary on his heritage.

That seems an odd affectation to give him. Was Tauriel the everyman in the second movie?

I mean, using Bilbo in that role would be mad.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
You may be reading into my words a tad too much, I think it's pretty clear what I meant.

True. I'm taking everyman at its actual meaning.

Also in the context of the film, why did Jackson take such efforts to make Bard of all people a relatable character?

Answer? Hatred of hobbits.
 

Curufinwe

Member
There's nothing in the movies that indicate he dislikes hobbits in any way. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam get everything they were due, and more with the "you bow to no one" line.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
There's nothing in the movies that indicate he dislikes hobbits in any way. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam get everything they were due, and more with the "you bow to no one" line.

Stuffing them to the background and making human characters the focus does kind of indicate a strong level of disinterest.
 

Vashetti

Banned
I was saying this in the other thread, but I finally watched the EE of Unexpected Journey and the films finally "clicked" for me.

The pacing feels more along the lines of LOTR - they breathe better this way.

Can't wait for Desolation EE, which is going in the mail today.

I've said it a lot, but more people should watch the Hobbit EEs, people joke like "lol, how can they make these cashgrab movies even longer?", but the improvements are very substantial.

I've no idea how most of that material ended up on the cutting room floor. The vast majority of added scenes to AUJ are great Bilbo scenes.
 

Curufinwe

Member
If Gollum counts as a hobbit, and I think he should, it's even more lopsided.

That top 15 poll was a lot of fun. I missed
Theoden and Arwen.
 

bengraven

Member
I still wish they wouldn't have used the day of Bilbo's birthday as the catalyst between the two movies. The Hobbit literally starts on the same day as LOTR and feels like a rehash at times. We didn't need Frodo until the final movie, when we see him listening to the story at like age 13; that Bilbo has been telling him this story the entire time.

I've said it a lot, but more people should watch the Hobbit EEs, people joke like "lol, how can they make these cashgrab movies even longer?", but the improvements are very substantial.

I've no idea how most of that material ended up on the cutting room floor. The vast majority of added scenes to AUJ are great Bilbo scenes.

I'm very happy I waited until the EEs to buy the movies.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Moorcock: the Anti-Tolkien

Michael Moorcock once wrote, “I think of myself as a bad writer with big ideas, but I’d rather be that than a big writer with bad ideas”
This month, the author Michael Moorcock celebrated his seventy-fifth birthday, which, as fate would have it, fell in the same month that Peter Jackson closed out his hexology of films that began with “Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship the Ring” and ended with “The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.” The latter is the third part of Jackson’s “The Hobbit” sequence, a book once considered a delightful fable that has been torn asunder to make its story fit in with the vast continuity of the earlier films, while also trying to honor every one of J. R. R. Tolkien’s footnotes, appendices, and letters. The films are astonishing Hollywood spectacles, and for those of us who grew up reading the books and playing elves in Dungeons & Dragons, it was a thrill seeing those characters realized on screen. Gollum and Sauron and Aragorn were drawn from mythic tropes but are now so integral to science-fiction and fantasy culture that they have become tropes themselves. But Moorcock, one of the most prolific living fantasists, sees Tolkien’s creation as little more than a conservative vision of the status quo, an adventure that brings its hero “There and Back Again,” rather than into a world where experience means you can’t go home again. Moorcock thinks Tolkien’s vast catalogue of names, places, magic rings, and dwarven kings is, as he told Hari Kunzru in a 2011 piece for The Guardian, “a pernicious confirmation of the values of a morally bankrupt middle class.”


Nevertheless, Moorcock might be someone to trust in these matters. From his first job, editing a Tarzan fan magazine at the age of seventeen, to his seventieth novel, which will be released in January, he has essentially written the other style guide for modern fantasy. Moorcock is the author of an almost uncountable number of short stories; he’s edited anthologies, written critical books of nonfiction and had his novel “Mother London” shortlisted for the Whitbread Prize. With that output, Moorcock is likely to have written some duds, but he is quick to acknowledge his own limitations. He once wrote, “I think of myself as a bad writer with big ideas, but I’d rather be that than a big writer with bad ideas”

It is also a lovely irony that it was fifty years ago this year that Moorcock, then twenty-four years old, was offered the editorial helm of the British magazine New Worlds. It was there that the young editor called foul on the old guard of science fiction and fantasy by publishing writers who—with a counterculture fire under their feet—changed the very course of science fiction and fantasy: J. G. Ballard, Roger Zelazny, and Samuel R. Delany, to name a few. It was also here that Moorcock gave a platform for some of the most insightful critiques of Tolkien’s vast influence.

Moorcock and his peers had become tired of the dominant science-fiction landscape: vast fields of time travel, machismo, and spaceships, as well as the beefcake heroes of the fantasy subgenre “Sword and Sorcery.” The Golden Age of Science Fiction, held aloft by authors like Frederik Phol, John W. Campbell, and Robert Heinlein had, by the nineteen-sixties, sputtered out into a recycling of the same ideas. Within the pages of New Worlds, Moorcock created a literary revolution, one that would have science fiction fans calling for his head. It would be termed New Wave, and it was characterized by an insistence that speculative fiction doesn’t need to rely on laser blasters, one-eyed Martians, and sub-light engines to expand its imagination. The stories in New Worlds under Moorcock were often experimental, sometimes pushing the boundaries of what some considered good taste. His first editorial, titled “A New Literature for the Space Age,” set the bar high:

More and more people are turning away from the fast-stagnating pool of the conventional novel — and they are turning to science fiction (or speculative fantasy). This is a sign, among others, that a popular literary renaissance is around the corner. Together, we can accelerate that renaissance.
Not even Tolkien’s vast philological scholarship, his deep knowledge of mythology, and his world-building skills could impress what Moorcock and company saw as a troublesome infantilism inherent in Tolkien’s work. In a 1971 essay in New Worlds, the writer M. John Harrison acknowledges Tolkien’s position as the first and last word in fantastic fiction, but begs readers to look more closely, where they will see not the “beautiful chaos of reality,” but “stability and comfort and safe catharsis.” In 1978, Moorcock did a more thorough takedown in an essay called “Epic Pooh,” in which he compares Tolkien and his hobbits to A. A. Milne and his bear.

But the message was not getting through. In 1973, long before Tolkien’s characters would become internet memes and Lego figures, the British don died and left behind a pop culture landscape that was quickly being populated by elves, orcs, and hobbits. Tolkien could be found in songs, Harvard Lampoon parodies, and hippie slogans (“Frodo Lives!”). By the early nineteen-eighties, “The Hobbit” and the “Lord of the Rings” trilogy had spawned not only adaptations in the form of cartoons and animated motion pictures, but had established the dominant flavor of fantasy books, games, and films.

Because Moorcock is a fiction writer, it was only fitting that he would offer a critique of Tolkien through his own work. In the nineteen-seventies, swimming in the shadows like a remora alongside Tolkien’s legacy, was a hero of sorts with a slightly darker nature than that of Bilbo or Gandalf. His name is Elric, a frail, drug-addicted albino and the reluctant ruler of the kingdom of Melniboné, where revenge and hedonism are abiding characteristics, and human beings are enslaved. The inhabitants of Melniboné are not the spiritual, almost angelic elves of Lothlórien, but a race of decadent autocrats whose magical gifts are bestowed by demons. While Elric loves his people, he despises their selfishness, and the stories and novels follow Elric across strange lands and times as he tries to come to terms with his own internal struggle with his companion, Stormbringer, a sentient sword that feeds off the souls of those Elric kills.

Moorcock’s influence is nothing like Tolkien’s, at least on the surface, but his vision of a speculative-fiction genre that can be psychologically complex is evident in how very sophisticated some of it has become—from “True Detective” to Jeff VanderMeer, from David Mitchell to “Under the Skin.” But Moorcock also embraces the joy of pulp, and, like Tolkien, his creations are namedropped and sourced high and low.

Rock and roll has proved to be one of the more potent vehicles for enshrining both Tolkien and Moorcock’s characters in pop culture. For all the claims of devil worship lobbed at Led Zeppelin, Satan doesn’t make a single appearance in their lyrics. Tolkien is where their real allegiance lies, with references to Gollum, Mordor, the Misty Mountains, and Ringwraiths. Moorcock, however, came of age during rock’s ascension and understood rock’s power to give electrified life to his creations. Moorcock worked directly with bands like Hawkwind and Blue Öyster Cult as both a spiritual and literary guru. And, like Tolkien’s characters, Moorcock’s heroes and anti-heroes appear in comic books and role-playing games. But more often his presence is seen the form of loving nods as, when, in the “Game of Thrones” television series, someone yells out “Stormbringer” when King Joffrey asks for possible names for his sword.

Moorcock’s literary agitation shook the fantasy and science-fiction establishment and made it possible for writers to step outside the long shadow of Tolkien and other fantasy devices. And frail Elric, dependent on a soul-stealing sword to keep his kingdom from utter dissolution, is a necessary corrective to the bloat of something like the “Hobbit” movie trilogy. Elric is not high art by any means, but is as rich and complex as anything calling itself fantasy. And the Elric stories are terrific fun. But, more importantly, Elric is not about abstract ideas of good and evil, with faceless powers looking to strip the world of its trees and its hobbit holes. Elric is about law and chaos, and how, sometimes, choosing one over the other is no more or less just.
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I just read an "old" article (January 2014) about the padding in The Hobbit trilogy with which I agree for the most part. Sorry if had already been posted.

How Much Padding is There in Peter Jackson’s “Hobbit” Trilogy?

Ever since it was announced that Peter Jackson would do three movies instead of the two that Guillermo del Toro had committed to, people have been complaining about all the “padding” that would be necessary to stretch the story of The Hobbit out to three films.

The book is shorter than the story, if that makes sense. Tolkien glosses over a lot of events that, in a work like The Lord of the Rings, would be given full authorial attention. Tolkien not only has Frodo and the boys visit the three stone trolls, he treats his readers to Sam’s famous song. In The Hobbit Bilbo rushes through the countryside on his way to the troll encounter; Frodo takes weeks to get there, stopping in the woods of the Shire, the Marish, the Buckland, the Old Forest, the house of Tom Bombadil, the Barrow-downs, Bree, Weathertop, and the Midgewater Marsh.

Continues here.
 
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