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[MutFox]

At least they tried to do an original story,
not like the soft reboot TFA was.

I have high hopes for Ep8 though.
Rian will do an awesome job, just hope Disney doesn't meddle too much.
Ep9 by Trevarrow though... Ugh...

 

[Blatz]

And the prequels as a whole are plot-hole filled, lazily shot messes with no love for subtlety, internal logic, or proper story arcs.

 

[atr0cious]

At least they tried to do an original story,
not like the soft reboot TFA was.

I have high hopes for Ep8 though.
Rian will do an awesome job, just hope Disney doesn't meddle too much.
Ep9 by Trevarrow though... Ugh...

The prequels weren't original. They had an end point already and several ideas of where to go. Lucas just scribbled in and on the outlines, and he still did a bad job of it.

 

[Surfinn]

This is spot on. Laughed out loud at my midnight screening during the Vader scene. The brother scene has pathos for some reason and pulls together the rest of the drek into a decent moment of tragedy, that's more because McGregor can act his ass off than the script being worth the 10 cents it cost to print that line.

The died of a broken heart line is a terrible line in any sci-fi movie.

Agreed, McGregor carried the scene. I do like the "I HATE YOU" line though, thought that was the only moment Christensen had where there was raw emotion. Good stuff.

At least they tried to do an original story,
not like the soft reboot TFA was.

I have high hopes for Ep8 though.
Rian will do an awesome job, just hope Disney doesn't meddle too much.
Ep9 by Trevarrow though... Ugh...

There was plenty of original story in EP7. It comes out in rewatches. I did not like the film initially.

Disney are hands off with EP8, just like EP7.

 

[To Far Away Times]

I hate these movies almost as much as Anakin hates sand.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

All of Han's improv with the intercom is hilarious

Believe it or not I read somewhere that the intercom chat was actually in the script even though it sounded like Harrison was just improvising.

I wish RLM didn't make their videos because then conversations about the prequels wouldn't just devolve into parroting their thoughts. Look at the conversation about Boyhood and what the default reaction to that movie has become. Its sad.

It's impossible to see their prequel videos and not start parroting their thoughts even subconsciously.
They hit the nail in the head so many times with what's wrong with these movies that it is impossible to watch the movies and be able to unsee the review.
I understand what you are saying but at the same time it's hard arguing against something so entertaining and well thought out.
If the prequels where any good I am sure a good counterpoint video would have come out to move the conversation past the Plinkett reviews.

 

[Surfinn]

Believe it or not I read somewhere that the intercom chat was actually in the script even though it sounded like Harrison was just improvising.

Really? I'd love a link. Still an incredible scene.

 

[aadiboy]

Everyone here seems to be pretty unanimous in their hate of the PT, so I'll just say this: Lucas at least deserves some respect for trying something different. VII was good, but it was also very derivative and kind of felt like it was written by a boardroom of executives.

Also, the PT gave me one of my favorite scenes of all the Star Wars saga: http://youtu.be/25GKkfXJUVU

 

[Big One]

The Ring Theory argument makes no sense. The movies having references to things doesn't make them good by default. It's all about context and execution, and the prequels have none of the later.

 

[GitarooMan]

Everyone here seems to be pretty unanimous in their hate of the PT, so I'll just say this: Lucas at least deserves some respect for trying something different. VII was good, but it was also very derivative and kind of felt like it was written by a boardroom of executives.

Also, the PT gave me one of my favorite scenes of all the Star Wars saga: http://youtu.be/25GKkfXJUVU

Why does it matter if it's different if the script acting pacing and direction are fucking awful.

 

[SomeRandomWeirdGuy]

I fully acknowledge that the Original Trilogy are the better movies by far, but the world presented by the Prequels will always be my favorite. The world of the OT is just so boring to me, and I don't understand how people can eat up the same tired Rebels vs. Empire plot over and over again.

There just being one or two Jedi is boring to me. Smugglers, plucky underdogs, and backwater planets are boring to me. I like the truly galactic scale of the Prequels, I enjoy the political intrigues and machinations.

Yeah, they're not good movies, but this completely overblown hate of them basically means that I can't get any more content in the part of the universe I love. From now on its gonna be all OT and ST to "wash the taste of the prequels out of my mouth". I want a Republic Commando sequel, or that Darth Maul game. I want more references and nods to them, I wish Clone Wars had kept going rather than being shifted over to the much more kiddy Rebels. In Battlefront threads, you had people GLAD that the game had lost the entire Clone Wars era, like losing half the content was a good thing just because of this fanatical hatred of the movies.

Really, I just want more shit in the Prequel era. I know there's that one comic with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, but it's a great era, and deserves more than it's getting.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Everyone here seems to be pretty unanimous in their hate of the PT, so I'll just say this: Lucas at least deserves some respect for trying something different. VII was good, but it was also very derivative and kind of felt like it was written by a boardroom of executives.

Also, the PT gave me one of my favorite scenes of all the Star Wars saga: http://youtu.be/25GKkfXJUVU

The only reason VII is much of a retread is to get Star Wars back to a point of common ground after having three movies of unnecessary CG, completely unlikable characters, and a complete failure of making compelling space politics. It's a 'greatest hits' so that people can go "oh this is what good Star Wars is..." without necessarily being told "Go watch these three-decade old movies, but not the other ones because... just, just don't watch those other ones."

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The only reason VII is much of a retread is to get Star Wars back to a point of common ground after having three movies of unnecessary CG, completely unlikable characters, and a complete failure of making compelling space politics. It's a 'greatest hits' so that people can go "oh this is what good Star Wars is..." without necessarily being told "Go watch these three-decade old movies, but not the other ones because... just, just don't watch those other ones."

You say this like it retconned the prequels. They still exist and they're still canon. There was no good reason 7 had to be as much of a retread as it was

 

[Metalingus5150]

Everyone here seems to be pretty unanimous in their hate of the PT, so I'll just say this: Lucas at least deserves some respect for trying something different. VII was good, but it was also very derivative and kind of felt like it was written by a boardroom of executives.

Also, the PT gave me one of my favorite scenes of all the Star Wars saga: http://youtu.be/25GKkfXJUVU

How exactly did Lucas try something "different" according to you?

 

[Fj0823]

The only reason VII is much of a retread is to get Star Wars back to a point of common ground after having three movies of unnecessary CG, completely unlikable characters, and a complete failure of making compelling space politics. It's a 'greatest hits' so that people can go "oh this is what good Star Wars is..." without necessarily being told "Go watch these three-decade old movies, but not the other ones because... just, just don't watch those other ones."

Ah yes, they were so bad, the only way to bring people back is by having 0 creativity and making the first movie again.

That argument is complete bullshit and you know it. The greatest hits collection to remind people about the most popular movies of all time? Movies rereleased every other year? Give me a break...

You can make a great creative new entry in a franchise even if the past entries weren't so hot.

 

[-griffy-]

Everyone here seems to be pretty unanimous in their hate of the PT, so I'll just say this: Lucas at least deserves some respect for trying something different. VII was good, but it was also very derivative and kind of felt like it was written by a boardroom of executives.

Also, the PT gave me one of my favorite scenes of all the Star Wars saga: http://youtu.be/25GKkfXJUVU

Phantom Menace is as derivative a repeat of ANH as TFA is. Probably more so in actually meaningful ways (rather than the surface level similarities everyone can spot in TFA).

 

[Not]

Revenge of the Sith is an awful movie. But it's enjoyable in a Gods of Egypt-y way, more than you can say about the other ones.

Return of the Jedi, ewoks and jabbas and all, is leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeagues better than General Grievouses and ridiculous nonsense emo Anakins

 

[Big One]

When the prequels retread stuff from old movies it's The Ring Theory. When TFA does it, it's a "rehash"

 

[Not]

Ah yes, they were so bad, the only way to bring people back is by having 0 creativity and making the first movie again.

That argument is complete bullshit and you know it. The greatest hits collection for the most popular movies of all time? Give me a break...

You can make a great creative new entry in a franchise even if the past entries weren't so hot.

So stupid. You're purposefully forgetting all the great, innovative things about Episode VII so you can have a snowflake opinion.

Give me a movie with a script, good characters, and dialogue. Purposefully derivative or no, TFA has those. TPM doesn't.

 

[diaspora]

So stupid. You're purposefully forgetting all the great, innovative things about Episode VII so you can have a snowflake opinion.

Give me a movie with a script, good characters, and dialogue. Purposefully derivative or no, TFA has those. TPM doesn't.

I genuinely can't tell if sarcasm.

 

[brandonh83]

When the prequels retread stuff from old movies it's The Ring Theory. When TFA does it, it's a "rehash"

It's similar in some ways but only on the surface really.

"0 creativity" lol, jesus christ.

 

[Big One]

It's similar in some ways but only on the surface really.

I know, lol. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of this prequel defense when the same people try to defend the prequels for doing the exact same thing TFA did.

 

[atr0cious]

I genuinely can't tell if sarcasm.

First star wars to use handheld. What an awful fucking ending shot

 

[Fj0823]

When the prequels retread stuff from old movies it's The Ring Theory. When TFA does it, it's a "rehash"

See,it's a rehash because in the prequels you get "echoes" as GL said, you get a boy going into an adventure in the first movie, guy losing a hand in the second, similar shots and whatever you want.

But it's all done for an entirely different story. It's "poetry" as George hilariously calls it, story beats that look and sounds similar but serve a different purpose.

In TFA every beat is exactly the same as it happened in the original, you are rhyming "dog" with "dog".

I really like TFA, but pretending stuff like Jakku and NotAThird Death Star are only "copying the surface" is pretty dumb

 

[brandonh83]

I know, lol. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of this prequel defense when the same people try to defend the prequels for doing the exact same thing TFA did.

Yeah I was just agreeing with you. Calling it a remake or rehash only implies that you're not actually paying a lick of attention.

In TFA every beat is exactly the same as it happened in the original

The problem with this is that it's absolutely incorrect.

 

[Surfinn]

Ah yes, they were so bad, the only way to bring people back is by having 0 creativity and making the first movie again.

That argument is complete bullshit and you know it. The greatest hits collection to remind people about the most popular movies of all time? Movies rereleased every other year? Give me a break...

You can make a great creative new entry in a franchise even if the past entries weren't so hot.

So tired of people throwing away the creativity of EP7 because "oh look A looks like B" surface criticism mentality instead of actually applying some critical thinking and discovering lots of the excellent and original character development/interactions/subtle moments that add so much to the rewatchability of TFA.

I say this as someone who did not like the film the first time. When I watch EP7 now (I've seen it over 10 times since release) I don't even think about ANH once, because its differences are not only what separate it from ANH but drive the story forward into what will become a complete trilogy. So much is overlooked because of people screaming LOOK AT THIS 4 MIN VIDEO OF HOW ANH AND TFA ARE THE SAME MOVIE!. Rey, Finn, Kylo, and even Poe are incredible characters with lots of personality with original and compelling backgrounds/future possibilities. But let's overlook the meat and potatoes so we can just focus on the surface similarities.

I genuinely can't tell if sarcasm.

A perfect example of criticism without critical thinking. Yes, believe it or not, if you actually focus on the story and characters, there's a lot of originality. I agree that visually it wasn't totally original and the world building could have used a lot more work, though. But EP8/9 will rectify this I think.

 

[Shaanyboi]

You say this like it retconned the prequels. They still exist and they're still canon. There was no good reason 7 had to be as much of a retread as it was

It may not have retconned the prequels but they sure are easier to ignore and stand apart even further.

And I just gave you a reason. There's a reason TFA doesn't have "Episode 7" on any of the marketing.

 

[Figboy79]

The first one is boring, but has it's moments, the second one is bad except for Obi-Wan's Kamino investigation, and the third one is actually fun, but messes up when trying to connect the events of it's story to Episode IV.

I'll definitely check this out later.

 

[Fj0823]

I agree TFA has a lot of new stuff in it (my comment was as hyperbolic as any prequel commment), but the constant rehash brings it all down.

I tried to concentrate on great characters like Finn and even Poe, Kylo is a great character too. I am really interested in the Knights of Ren and Luke's journey

But watching the movie the feeling of "Been there, done that" overpowered the good new stuff in the movie.

It may work for you, but for a lot of people it was way too much.

I mean, they even have a "Oh so it's just another Death Star...but BIGGER".

 

[brandonh83]

and the third one is actually fun, but messes up when trying to connect the events of it's story to Episode IV.

How so? There's nothing contradictory.

 

[Surfinn]

How so? There's nothing contradictory.

Well maybe not contradict but I'd argue it's pretty damn rushed. Considering we had THREE ENTIRE MOVIES to get to ANH, it's a little disappointing to see lots of things stuffed in at the end.

 

[brandonh83]

Well maybe not contradict but I'd argue it's pretty damn rushed. Considering we had THREE ENTIRE MOVIES to get to ANH, it's a little disappointing to see lots of things stuffed in at the end.

A subjective point of view that I won't argue with, that's fine. The prequels had more story to tell other than just connecting to ANH, and I liked the pacing of the last one. To each his own!

 

[Glass Shark]

Got to Ring Theory and then I was OUT

The prequels are not just "bad for Star Wars movies," or "the movies that ruined our childhood," they are objectively bad movies overall that don't deserve apology.

 

[Surfinn]

A subjective point of view that I won't argue with, that's fine. The prequels had more story to tell other than just connecting to ANH, and I liked the pacing of the last one. To each his own!

Right, and that was the whole point of the prequels.. to give us what we didn't have in ANH (background events leading up to the OT), not just to give us missing info, but to explain what happened to Anakin and how he fell (so much incredible potential there). The pacing was much better (even if rushed) than the other two films, definitely. I find it hard to believe that anyone could argue that TPM or AotC is a better film. At the same time, especially carrying a PG-13 rating, EP3 could have been SOOOO much more. It had glimmers of excellence often subdued by botched execution. IMO, of course.

 

[Monocle]

The only reason VII is much of a retread is to get Star Wars back to a point of common ground after having three movies of unnecessary CG, completely unlikable characters, and a complete failure of making compelling space politics. It's a 'greatest hits' so that people can go "oh this is what good Star Wars is..." without necessarily being told "Go watch these three-decade old movies, but not the other ones because... just, just don't watch those other ones."

Nailed it. If Lucas hadn't crapped the bed in spectacular fashion, it wouldn't have been necessary to give audiences a "Hey, remember when Star Wars movies used to be good?" film. Not that TFA doesn't have plenty of original material in its current form.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

How exactly did Lucas try something "different" according to you?

Not having another masked villain and not having another Death Star were some of my main gripes with VII that the prequels avoided. I don't care that Kylo Ren was a Vader stan. There were tons of other directions they could've gone with. And yes, they did introduce some new concepts and ideas, but I felt like compared to the new stuff introduced in just Episode 1, it was underwhelming

 

[brandonh83]

Right, and that was the whole point of the prequels.. to give us what we didn't have in ANH (background events leading up to the OT), not just to give us missing info, but to explain what happened to Anakin and how he fell (so much incredible potential there). The pacing was much better (even if rushed) than the other two films, definitely. I find it hard to believe that anyone could argue that TPM or AotC is a better film. At the same time, especially carrying a PG-13 rating, EP3 could have been SOOOO much more. It had glimmers of excellence often subdued by botched execution. IMO, of course.

For me I thought it was always obvious that the first two would sorta be their own thing, with the last one being the bridge. It probably feels like it was rushed because of that, as most of the familiar elements we don't really see until the last one, such as the Tantive IV.

I have a share of problems with the prequels, but most of them are relegated to the first two. There's not much about Revenge of the Sith that I don't like. I won't argue about how some things are rushed, but I will say that most of the time, when a director takes their time to flesh things out big time, you end up with folks complaining about the opposite, such as the ending to Return of the King.

Obviously you can find a happy medium and I thought that ending(s?) was earned by the characters/story, but it usually ends in "too rushed" or "too padded/drawn out." For me Revenge of the Sith fell somewhere in-between; some things about it felt rushed, but I thought it worked and ample enough attention was given in the right places.

Not having another masked villain and not having another Death Star were some of my main gripes with VII that the prequels avoided. I don't care that Kylo Ren was a Vader stan. There were tons of other directions they could've gone with

Dude come on this is broad as fuck lol. Villains are allowed to have masks, it doesn't make them similar, same for superweapons. Also, you're forgetting Jango Fett and the Trade Federation station. Anakin blew up a big enemy station just like his son does 50 years later or whatever, what a ripoff!

 

[Boney]

Force Awakens did a fantastic job at having a similar structure to a new hope that'll resonate with people that saw it 30 years ago while also providing the necessary elements for new comers to enjoy the ride 100%

And within that structure it switches everything up because the characters involved are totally different so they have totally different journeys and growth. It manages to subvert expectations while keeping with the tried and true.

My only little gripe is that they never give a good enough hint as to how the New Order rose from the crumbled empire and managed to get such firepower unopposed for so long and why the Resistance had to operate independently from the Senate. It's no problem in the OT because I can easily insert myself into that moment without knowing anything about the universe because whatever happened I don't need to know about, but now since we already have knowledge about the Star Wars universe it leaves the viewer asking questions as to what happened.

The movie also plants a lot of plot threads and mysteries and leaves them entirely for the sequels, so it can have trouble standing on it's own despite the fantastic set pieces. But it's a great blockbuster for what it is.

 

[Surfinn]

Not having another masked villain and not having another Death Star were some of my main gripes with VII that the prequels avoided. I don't care that Kylo Ren was a Vader stan. There were tons of other directions they could've gone with. And yes, they did introduce some new concepts and ideas, but I felt like compared to the new stuff introduced in just Episode 1, it was underwhelming

Because he had a mask..

So instead of a villain who has an interesting backstory and legitimate struggles throughout the film and excellent character development, maybe.. Darth Maul, who appears simply to fight two Jedi and die? What exactly was good about the villains in the PT in any meaningful way (aside from Palpatine, who had moments of excellence as a villain)? Dooku? Grevious? Who had any depth or planning other than "wow that looks cool!"?

 

[-griffy-]

Not having another masked villain and not having another Death Star were some of my main gripes with VII that the prequels avoided. I don't care that Kylo Ren was a Vader stan. There were tons of other directions they could've gone with. And yes, they did introduce some new concepts and ideas, but I felt like compared to the new stuff introduced in just Episode 1, it was underwhelming

Right, they just had a villain with face paint who was a complete non-character and a different space station get blown up at the end. Totally different things. Not to mention the Skywalker on Tatooine who is mentored by the old Jedi, the haggling with seedy locals to get off planet, Skywalker leaving Tatooine to train as a Jedi, the princess/queen who gets captured and needs to be rescued, the old mentor being killed by the bad guy in a lightsaber battle, Skywalker blowing up the space station at the end thanks to his established piloting ability, and the movie ending with the entire cast partaking in an awards ceremony.

 

[Surfinn]

There's not much about Revenge of the Sith that I don't like.

For me it's lots of hammy acting. When I saw it in theaters, LOTS of people laughed at Palpatine's antics and delivery (dude's amazing but I'm not sure how so many scenes turned out comical). Lots of poor direction choices, still problems with overacting/poor dialogue/over-reliance on CGI.. EP3 is not even close to being a great movie IMO, but has the framework there for something incredible.

I will say though the Plagueis scene is one of the best in all of SW. Wish they would have done much more with that and it's mythology.

EDIT: I wonder where Bobby went. Maybe he got tired of dealing with the same shallow criticisms/threads cropping up all day.

 

[Not]

Force Awakens did a fantastic job at having a similar structure to a new hope that'll resonate with people that saw it 30 years ago while also providing the necessary elements for new comers to enjoy the ride 100%

Mmhmm. So essentially, it's even George Lucas' fault that TFA is a "rehash"

 

[brandonh83]

For me it's lots of hammy acting. When I saw it in theaters, LOTS of people laughed at Palpatine's antics and delivery (dude's amazing but I'm not sure how so many scenes turned out comical). Lots of poor direction choices, still problems with overacting/poor dialogue/over-reliance on CGI.. EP3 is not even close to being a great movie IMO, but has the framework there for something incredible.

I thought the performances, at least relative to the first two, were a big step up. Not everything was great obviously and there's a few critically-written lines during otherwise powerful moments that are questionable and poorly delivered... but mostly poorly delivered from being poorly written. I can't imagine some of those lines ever being delivered well by anyone. Harrison even said this about some of the lines in the script for A New Hope.

There's only a few instances of the writing/acting that bums me out in that one, as opposed to many large chunks of the first two being insufferable. Hayden is good, to me, when he isn't being forced into saying dumb things. Ewan is always great. Natalie is better than she was in the first two, until the landing platform scene before the lightsaber duel where she simply stopped giving a fuck altogether, but I'll blame that too on Lucas for not being able to see that she was doing a shitty job during such a crucial moment.

As far as Palpatine hamminess, yeah, I ate it up. I felt like he was letting loose with his personality after having to play that fake role for so long. He was thrilled to finally shed that guise and fuck up the fam.

 

[Surfinn]

I thought the performances, at least relative to the first two, were a big step up. Not everything was great obviously and there's a few critically-written lines during otherwise powerful moments that are questionable and poorly delivered... but mostly poorly delivered from being poorly written. I can't imagine some of those lines ever being delivered well by anyone. Harrison even said this about some of the lines in the script for A New Hope.

There's only a few instances of the writing/acting that bums me out in that one, as opposed to many large chunks of the first two being insufferable. Hayden is good, to me, when he isn't being forced into saying dumb things. Ewan is always great. Natalie is better than she was in the first two, until the landing platform scene before the lightsaber duel where she simply stopped giving a fuck altogether, but I'll blame that too on Lucas for not being able to see that she was doing a shitty job during such a crucial moment.

As far as Palpatine hamminess, yeah, I ate it up. I felt like he was letting loose with his personality after having to play that fake role for so long. He was thrilled to finally shed that guise and fuck up the fam.

Yeah I agree lots of what happened was because of the writing and direction, no doubt, not blaming Ian (or anyone else, for that matter) for any of that. I will admit I've never really thought of it that way and him just letting loose/being wicked in all his glory.. almost in the reverse of Yoda where he was fucking with Luke until he revealed himself.

I mean don't get me wrong I love his performance but in all the wrong ways. I'd honestly love a movie of just Palp being Palp.

 

[brandonh83]

I mean don't get me wrong I love his performance but in all the wrong ways. I'd honestly love a movie of just Palp being Palp.

Ian was terrific while doing his senator thing. It was great watching him be a secretive prick around characters whom he was using their egos against them; the Jedi thought they were the shit to the point where Palpatine could use some dark space magic to allow them to not be able to see right through him. Is it a clumsy excuse? Sort of, but IMO not really anything greatly detached from "I can see the future and do awesome shit because the Force!"

Back to the point, for me it was just fun to watch him let go. I really enjoyed his stuff on Grievous' ship at the beginning too. Good, Anakin, good! Hahaha. *sigh* kill him. But the thing I liked the most was how, while Palpatine had most things figured out, he didn't have Anakin 100% figured out. While the probability was there, I liked how Palpatine was relying on the hope that Anakin would turn against Windu/the Jedi at that moment.

Even the main villain was sort of making a gamble there, and I liked Lucas' shots of his face when Anakin was trying to make the decision and was arguing with Windu before lopping his arm off.

I could talk about Star Wars all day, and surely to the chagrin of many of you!

 

[Surfinn]

Ian was terrific while doing his senator thing. It was great watching him be a secretive prick around characters whom he was using their egos against them; the Jedi thought they were the shit to the point where Palpatine could use some dark space magic to allow them to not be able to see right through him. Is it a clumsy excuse? Sort of, but IMO not really anything greatly detached from "I can see the future and do awesome shit because the Force!"

Back to the point, for me it was just fun to watch him let go. I really enjoyed his stuff on Grievous' ship at the beginning too. Good, Anakin, good! Hahaha. *sigh* kill him. But the thing I liked the most was how, while Palpatine had most things figured out, he didn't have Anakin 100% figured out. While the probability was there, I liked how Palpatine was relying on the hope that Anakin would turn against Windu/the Jedi at that moment.

Even the main villain was sort of making a gamble there, and I liked Lucas' shots of his face when Anakin was trying to make the decision and was arguing with Windu before lopping his arm off.

I could talk about Star Wars all day, and surely to the chagrin of many of you!

Right it's always been there but I think it's taken to a level higher than what we'd seen before. I agree, Palpatine was done very well (if you can stomach his goofy antics), and I actually really like his ability to cloud their vision through his expert knowledge of the dark side. The Jedi weren't completely fooled and were able to recognize this dark force that kept them at bay.. just not who was doing it and for what purpose. And you could definitely tell that Palp struggled to keep Anakin on his side (I just REALLY wish they would have found another way to turn him fully to the dark side aside from his abrupt task to murder children). I do like the scene where Anakin pulls his saber out, and even as Palp is caught red handed, he's able to talk his way out of it by playing on Anakin's emotions.

There were spots of brilliance that almost always surrounded the character of Darth Sidious.

 

[brandonh83]

Right it's always been there but I think it's taken to a level higher than what we'd seen before. I agree, Palpatine was done very well (if you can stomach his goofy antics), and I actually really like his ability to cloud their vision through his expert knowledge of the dark side.

Oh yeah, not saying that all of Star Wars is full of deliberately over the top scene-chewing, but where it's one of those bigger than life stories, things are typically exaggerated. The acting is far from realistic in any of them, and again it was an instance of how a character who was naturally evil finally being able to cut that shit out after having to play along with politicians and Jedi for decades, both of which he fucking despises, I mean can you imagine? Poor guy. I actually kind of sympathize with him.

 

[xandaca]

The prequels' problem is that Lucas is great at coming up with plot and character outlines, but atrocious at the things required to turn them into a good final product. Anakin, Padme, Palpatine and Obi Wan are all great characters in theory, but wrecked once Lucas tries to elucidate their defining character traits either visually or through dialogue, both fields in which he's totally incompetent. The overall arc of the trilogy, as a concept, is a tremendously bold interpretation of the space opera on a massive scale, and all the main characters have intelligently plotted arcs and conflicts. Unfortunately, all of this is sunk between the horrendous dialogue, the enormous amount of filler material, overabundance of CGI.

I wrote this in the original Force Awakens thread after stating that the prequels' characters are far richer and more intricate than those in TFA and someone challenged me to 'do the Plinkett thing' and lay out the prequel characters' defining traits (predictably, said user got pissy when I actually did it). Here's Padme and Anakin:

Padme is a rational and compassionate young woman with a fierce belief in the importance of democracy and fair governance. She stringently debates and opposes anyone who argues for potentially dangerous compromises in those principles, or who would use well-intentioned systems to gain personal power. Unfortunately, she's also naive and somewhat easily led, making her vulnerable to both the manipulations of Senator Palpatine and unable to see the darkness growing inside Anakin until it's too late. She believes that there is a diplomatic solution to every problem, that the best way of obtaining justice is to work within existing legal channels. Unfortunately, since her enemies do not respect the same rules she does, she is often overtaken by them. She is nevertheless brave and willing to fight for her cause when need be, sometimes recklessly if it means putting herself in harm's way.

Anakin is a young man who shares Padme's almost obsessive questing for an ideal, but finds himself fiercely conflicted when he or those around him fail to live up to those standards. Like Padme, he's also compassionate, but where that compassion inspires determination in her, it inspires anger in him, leading him down dangerous paths and into the hands of Palpatine. Having been told he is the chosen one since he was a boy and gifted with extremely potent force powers, he has a strong ego which he struggles to control, a weakness he is well aware of and angry at his inability to overcome. Where Padme sees diplomacy as the best way to achieve peace, Anakin - having grown up in a desolate and poverty-ridden corner of the galaxy which the Republic showed little interest in helping - believes sometimes bad things need to be in order to achieve a greater good, that the corrupt and evil cannot be defeated by talking. His relationships mean a lot to him and he puts a great deal of trust in a small number of confidantes (Padme, Palpatine, Obi Wan), magnifying his anger when he feels betrayed by them, or when he believes he has let them down, as in his inability to save his mother.

Even taking into account that Padme and Anakin had three films across which to develop and Rey's only had one, I maintain that, regardless of the performances (and indeed, for the prequels, the dialogue), the new characters in Force Awakens are considerably blander, less flawed and complex, than the key players (Anakin, Obi Wan, Palpatine, Padme) in the prequels.

In other words: yes, the prequels are shit - Phantom Menace is my favourite, because while they're all varying shades of bad or boring, at least PM has some good sequences in it, like pod racing, the Darth Maul fight and Liam Neeson in general - but the worst part is that the ingredients within them could have made something incredible.

 

[Figboy79]

How so? There's nothing contradictory.

Personally, it felt like he squished a lot of New Hope hooks into the last 5 minutes of the movie, instead of organically stringing them through all three movies.

Little things like Leia's memories of her mother bug me, and there were a lot of elements that could have been elaborated on as far as character relationships (like the Lars and Organa's should have had more important roles in relation to Anankin, Padme, and Obi-Wan. I like Episode 3, but it's rough as fuck in how it executes some pretty key moments in Star Wars lore. Anakin turning to the dark side falls incredibly flat for me, and that's kind of THE moment of all 7 movies (well, one of them).

The Order 66 stuff was great, but not seeing Anakin actually storm the Jedi temple and confront his former allies was a missed opportunity for some great drama. Then again, Anakin's relationship with the Jedi isn't even remotely fleshed out in three whole movies, so I imagine him confronting them would have fallen short too.

I guess the best way I can express my feeling is this: imagine if, in the 7th Harry Potter book/movie, Harry falls to the dark side and starts murdering McGonagal, Lupin, Arthur Weasley, Molly Weasley, etc etc? All of the people that had formed a deep bond with Harry, and he just turns on them and kills them all. It would have been heartbreaking and emotional and ridiculous, but the point is that Harry's relationships with the people around him have weight, so if he were to turn on them, given proper dark side set up, it'd hurt to see).

I thought the Obi/Anakin fight at the end has bits of that emotional despair, but because their relationship was so tense and strained for three movies, it didn't hit like it should have. The opening of RoTs is my favorite part of the movie. I really enjoyed the back and forth with Obi and Anakin, especially in some of the deleted scenes. It's the kind of stuff we should have seen in movie two, but instead we got exasperated Obi-Wan and petulant Anankin.

I didn't mean to go on this long, but I felt that RoTs had too much to cram into its run time, and there was no reason for it when we had two 2 plus hour movies before it to let some moments breathe and build tension.

And I'm someone that likes Episode 3.

 

[Raonak]

For what it's worth, I thought ROTS was better than any OT movie.