This saddens me. I know it's got it's moments but..
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The Prequels Strike Back - documentary defending the Star Wars prequels
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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This saddens me. I know it's got it's moments but..If you ever get offered a job making a Star Wars movie, please turn it down
Do you think people would have celebrated if he gave up the rights after ROTJ? Obviously a lot of fans take their dislike of the PT too far, but the biggest reason those films suck so terribly is because George was unwilling to share more of the creative process. That means he deserves his lion's share of the criticism. It's not that the prequels are JUST awful, they're bafflingly crappy, so many weird decisions that could have been adjusted if anyone with even an ounce of filmmaking talent could have convinced ol' Georgie that YOU DONT MAKE MOVIES LIKE THIS.
lol wanna explain why?
Lifejumper
Member
Have you seen that lightsaber fight at the end breh?
Dude, lava surfing!
That's the thing. Originality doesn't mean anything if the original material is garbage.
And it still requires a lot of looking in the other direction for all the times that the prequels not only rehash OT stuff, but absolutely bungles that too. Say what you will about TFA rehashing ANH, but it at least does it well enough to make some of that reused content its own.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
TESB shits on it from lofty heights. Best SW movie, and also an excellent film in its own right.
I'm still not sure if I agree or disagree with you, but I respect you.
I mean... They may not use Episode 7 in the marketing but they still refer to it as Episode 7. Just like how they referring to the upcoming one as: "Episode 8."
Also while not from a Prequel-movie (but the era), Forest Whitaker Rogue One is from the prequel-era. He canoncially fought along side Obi-wan, Anakin, and Ashoka.
So no more of this idea that they're trying to push away the prequels.
Monocle
Member
You're breaking my heart.
It's called Episode 8 because we literally have nothing else to call it. Wait until they put out a logo or a poster.
And I don't know that an obscure character from a cartoon not everyone watched is a meaningful connection. Unless his plot somehow relies on having seen those episodes, for most people, he may as well be a new character.
Also, didn't Episode VII make a subtle reference to Pod Racing? And they even had Ewan McGregor voice a young Obi Wan in Rei's vision.
"Trying push the prequels away" my ass.
This is strange. You respect someone because they said x is a better movie than y? We haven't even heard an explanation yet. I'd love to hear the reasoning.
Also, didn't Episode VII make a subtle reference to Pod Racing? And they even had Ewan McGregor voice a young Obi Wan in Rei's vision.
"Trying push the prequels away" my ass.
Maz's castle has flags that directly reference the PT and I believe pod racing in TPM.
Taking the "episode" of the title was a rebranding, it applied to all movies. Episode 1 is now marketed as Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.
Mon Mothma in RO is the same actress who played her in DELETED scenes of episode 3, and have you even watched Rebels?.
At this point the "distancing themselves from the prequels" shit is nothing but purist fanboy delusion
Mon Mothma in RO is the same actress who played her in DELETED scenes of episode 3, and have you even watched Rebels?.
At this point the "distancing themselves from the prequels" shit is nothing but purist fanboy delusion
I think you missed the point on that second part. The very fact that they're willing to reference prequel-era stuff goes against the idea that Disney is trying to make people "forget" about them.
Also, didn't Episode VII make a subtle reference to Pod Racing? And they even had Ewan McGregor voice a young Obi Wan in Rei's vision.
"Trying push the prequels away" my ass.
I've seen it here and in other places. I remember people mentioning that since you only see (at the time), OT stuff on the Star Wars website home page that Lucasfilm were going to try and retcon out the Prequels eventually.
I noticed that on Amazon, if you buy the digital copies of the movies from the "Disney Movies Anywhere", they all have the Episode monikers removed.
SkywardBeam
Member
Well, to be fair, the lightsaber fights in the OT were extremely clunky and had no dynamic at all. I mean, I certainly couldn't do it any better than they did in the old movies, but Luke, Obi-Wan and Vader are supposed to be high skilled combatants with years of practice (at least Obi-Wan and Vader), not ordinary Joes who pick up a sword for the first time in their lives. I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the production history of the OT, so I don't know if Hamill and co. actually underwent some sort of training in preparation for the sword fighting sequences. But it certainly doesn't look this way. In comparison, the lightsaber duels in RotS were actually dynamic and nice too look at. Sure, maybe a bit over the top here and there, but highly entertaining overall. It sadly doesn't compensate for the ridiculous dialogues and all the other shortcomings the PT is plagued with, though. But it's at least one aspect in which the PT is vastly superior to the OT.
Could not disagree more. Luke and Vader in ESB and again in ROTJ are both the best saber fights ever. No dynamic at all? There's so much going on from cinematography to dialogue to the actual choreography itself which is beautifully simplistic. Some of the best filmmaking I've ever seen. There isn't a single fight from the PT aside from the final confrontation that carries even a little emotional weight. Even that turns into fucking circus after a few minutes.
Except unlike the prequel fights, there's some actual tension in the Luke/Vader fights. They get bruised, there's wear, there's exhaustion, there's frustration. Luke gets the shit beaten out of him, even Vader loses it at afew points. He toys with him, and Luke overcomes, and other times he fails. I mean there clearly isn't the flash, especially in the original Obi-Wan/Vader fight, but it doesn't matter when the characters involved are actually worth caring about.
The prequel fights are these overlong displays of choreography with no push/pull, and that don't go anywhere until Lucas arbitrarily decides "okay, that's enough fighting."
The lightsaber fight choreography in the OT was largely handled by a highly respected and world renowned fencing expert, who also served as the fighting stunt double for Vader.
As somebody with a reasonable familiarity with fencing, I will gladly take the methodical and mind-game heavy combat in the OT versus the overly produced and impractical twirling in the PT.
It really doesn't matter what references what, if the prequels are being shunned or not, and etc. At the end of the day, the prequel trilogy are just badly produced movies all around. Anyone who has some level of knowledge on good acting, cinematography, script writing, and direction would tell you that. There's nothing wrong with any of the concepts themselves if the execution by and large falters. There's some redeeming stuff in them. The lightsaber battles are indeed well-choreographed, the casting is undoubtedly good and star-studded, and while the CG has aged badly it was pretty innovative for it's time especially it's usage in Episode 1. No director or anyone that actively takes in the production of movies will never say with a straight face these movies are good unless they're soley interested with how much the movies make in the box office, which if that's the sole barometer then Episode VII must be the best movie in the entire franchise (it's not).
That isn't to say the original trilogy are masterpiece movies by any means, but the quality difference between the two sets of movies are so obvious that anyone that watches more than just Star Wars movies and other Hollywood drab like Pirates of the Caribbean or the Mummy will tell you the same.
That isn't to say the original trilogy are masterpiece movies by any means, but the quality difference between the two sets of movies are so obvious that anyone that watches more than just Star Wars movies and other Hollywood drab like Pirates of the Caribbean or the Mummy will tell you the same.
What's sad is that with all the work into putting the PT era lightsaber duels together, they theoretically SHOULD be some of the best action sequences you'd ever see in film. But due to bad writing and direction, it really makes the climax feel not as important as it should be. If only a more capable director could've directed these movies and we might've seen some proper build-up to each of the lightsaber fights.
So love has blinded you?
What I mean is that obviously a lot of work was put into them in terms of actually planning out what all the characters are doing, the training involved to get everyone in shape, the length of them. There was probably a lot more effort put into them than there should be. The fights felt like too much was put into them to make them feel "exciting."
UnforgivenTwin
Member
In ESB when Luke is walking down the hallway after he pulls himself up off the ledge and Vader jumps out at him is,in my opinion more intense than anything in the prequel duels. You can feel the brute force of Vader coming at Luke and there's nothing he can do to stop it. One of my favorite scenes.
And that's what makes them so frustrating. They put all that effort into trying to make them feel exciting and tense, instead of just, well, making them exciting and tense.
As a comparison point, here's Liam Neeson in a sword duel in a relatively contemporary movie to TPM. It doesn't need to rely on flashy moves, constant movement, busy scenery, and loud music to make things tense. It's tense because it's it's a fuckin' good sword fight (and, as a bonus, when the music actually kicks in, it means so much more).
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Eh, that's not much of sword duel that was opponent toying and completely outclassing the other duelist and then dying stupidly, I suppose that's something it has in common with the prequel trilogy. The choregraphy is great but the ending made little sense, you wouldn't wait for someone to pick up their sword and strike you in that situation. In worst case you'd drop your sword and get the fuck out of there.
If anything, that puts it more in common with the duels in the OT. The fight in ANH pit a weary and aged Obi Wan, well past his prime, against a mechanical monstrosity. It was never going to be more than Vader toying with him and Obi Wan trying to hold off long enough to let the others escape. Similarly, ESB's duel was a hopelessly outclassed Luke desperately trying to survive against that same monstrosity, where the former is throwing everything he has to try and win and is getting more and more careless with every swing of the blade while the later effortlessly pushes back against every attempted advance. The whole point is that half of these fights are mind games. Even when the big final RotJ fight puts Luke and Vader on more even ground, you still have much of the fight being mind games between the two before things eventually break down into sheer brutality as Luke starts to let his rage consume him. The ending of the Rob Roy fight still plays into that, since, yes, it was silly for Mr. Orange to lose in that manner. The whole duel up to that point was a whole mind game, and Mr. Orange lost to Qui Gon the moment he assured himself that he had won when he actually hadn't yet.
You never get any of that in the prequels, because they are overproduced spectacles that ultimately harm themselves because they never let the actual fights speak for themselves.
Monocle
Member
Did you notice the scene where Darth "Walking Life Support Unit" Vader ruined Luke "Best Jedi Evar" Skywalker's day? It's pretty easy to miss.
brandonh83
Banned
Loved the prequel fights. They're pretty much exactly how I imagined they'd be.
Nah it's just Disney refusing to take any creative risks and ignorantly trying to overcompensate based on what they thought the audience liked/disliked from the past films.
All episode 7 needed to be was a look into the world of Star Wars 30 years in the future, and then a simple origin story based around a core trio off to save the world. Instead we got Hipster General Grevious, a midlife crisis Death Star, and a sidelined Leia because Disney don't want Carrie Fisher front and center of any promotional tour.
brandonh83
Banned
Disney didn't have much involvement. I also don't understand why the first part absolutely needs to take creative "risks." When people say this all I can imagine is that they want it to feel almost totally different from a Star Wars movie. This first one like ANH was to establish everything and get the story rolling. I imagine with Rian doing the next one that there will be more risk-taking.
Me too. Obi Wan VS Anakin remains my favorite fight in the franchise.
Anakin VS Dooku in Episode II sucks major balls, though, except for the VERY brief dual lightsaber stuff.
brandonh83
Banned
I liked the lights off, face close up part of Anakin and Dooku. I thought it was sick when Anakin sliced the cable on the floor and the lights went out.
It was just different and unexpected to me. It was kind of... risk-takey.
It was just different and unexpected to me. It was kind of... risk-takey.
Stevetopsy
Member
I've been trying to distill what it is I feel may be the most overarching issue of the PT, and I feel it lies in Lucas' approach to writing them (obviously, duh). From where he chose to begin with a child Anakin, he knew what had to happen for the characters and plot link up with A New Hope. His major error in my opinion was that he simply wrote his story to connect those story beats (i.e. Anakin turns Dark Side, gets mutilated, becomes Vader, Clone Wars stuff, Palpatine scheming, Padme dying, etc) because that's how Lucas understands or sees Star Wars, or at least that's how he understood the Prequels as he envisioned them. What he didn't seem understand, or care about, at all were the characters he was writing for. Of course we all wanted to see those main story beats play out too, but when it's story for story's sake it ends up ultimately feeling pretty soulless if we're not invested or attached to any of the people on screen who are involved in or affected by it.
He should have developed strong characterizations and wrote character actions and dialogue with them in mind as he worked his way through the story beats he wanted to hit. Instead he gave almost no consideration to characterization and basically had characters act however he needed them to in order to make the story go wherever he needed it to go. Now you're stuck with a cast of characters you can't relate to, empathize with, or ultimately care about as you watch them interact or respond in ways that feel robotic, forced, and unnatural. At worst, it can come off as confusing or even unintentionally humorous. Granted, clunky dialogue doesn't help either or boring shot composition... but this is the foundation that makes the PT so lame, I feel anyway. The Fast and the Furious films get a ton of mileage out of their cast of likable characters and even Episode VII was enjoyable for most despite being a retread of ANH because of a strong cast of likeable characters like Rey, Finn, and my man Poe. Hell, Kylo Ren has more interesting internal conflict and depth in a single film than the cast of the prequel trilogy does as a whole over all 3 films. I feel like the Prequels would at least be looked back on more favorably if even just that one area could be improved. With three films littered with so many major issues tho, it might be more like hoping a boat with water leaking in 100 different ways can float after plugging up just one of them, regardless of if it's the largest leak or not.
He should have developed strong characterizations and wrote character actions and dialogue with them in mind as he worked his way through the story beats he wanted to hit. Instead he gave almost no consideration to characterization and basically had characters act however he needed them to in order to make the story go wherever he needed it to go. Now you're stuck with a cast of characters you can't relate to, empathize with, or ultimately care about as you watch them interact or respond in ways that feel robotic, forced, and unnatural. At worst, it can come off as confusing or even unintentionally humorous. Granted, clunky dialogue doesn't help either or boring shot composition... but this is the foundation that makes the PT so lame, I feel anyway. The Fast and the Furious films get a ton of mileage out of their cast of likable characters and even Episode VII was enjoyable for most despite being a retread of ANH because of a strong cast of likeable characters like Rey, Finn, and my man Poe. Hell, Kylo Ren has more interesting internal conflict and depth in a single film than the cast of the prequel trilogy does as a whole over all 3 films. I feel like the Prequels would at least be looked back on more favorably if even just that one area could be improved. With three films littered with so many major issues tho, it might be more like hoping a boat with water leaking in 100 different ways can float after plugging up just one of them, regardless of if it's the largest leak or not.
I love that video and I think the fights are terrible but the not hitting people is just cinematography, bad cinematography but cinematography regardless.
But the fight at the end of Jedi redeems the movie, it's amazingly shot and executed.
But some folks would rather have them fight dragon ball z style with punches you can't see that loop every 4 hits
the dude was lazy as fuck. Anakin is special because of the space bacterias and those space bacterias were foretold in a prophecy that they would do something vague about something. Oh and he's supposed to be angry so I'm gonna make him a brat so people get that he's a bad boy.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Lightsaber duels in the prequel trilogy all boil down to the characters waving them around and doing back flips and shit 100% perfectly, until one of them out-of-character lets down their guard and gets stabbed/disarmed (literally in some cases).
It's dumb.
It's dumb.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I actually really liked the clone wars duels which are still in a similarity vein especially Palpatine vs mace and savage. It was a totallypoint duel the the show even display to you in the first encounter where sidious could have easily killed them both, but sidious wanted a bit of light entertainment and bit of excersise. The progression of the toying two on one to decimating and killing mauls brother to the final clash (two duel wielded lightsabers clashing) in which maul was actually equal to sidious and sidious essentially going fuck this andvresortibg back to the force. It had a great back and forth and was really fun in general. Helps that the proceeding arc was some of clone wars best which set it up.
Agreed. The fights in the Clone Wars series are just fucking amazing! Probably the absolute best overall.
Honestly I felt the script of the episode 7 was probably 70-80% of where it needed to be. With a few tweaks here and there it's a great film.
What I mean by "creative risks" is Disney/LucasFilm having the courage to tell a story about War, about conflict, and to actually have a voice on the present political issues of the day. Something both the OT and the Prequel films had.
The biggest flaw with episode seven is it disregards world building and just says look this is Star Wars 2.0. Tne first order is the Empire 2.0, the "resistance" is the rebel alliance 2.0. A good first film is meant to include those details. The audience should know the history of the first order. It's only been 30 years. It wouldn't take much explaining. Similar to how it took one line in A New Hope to set up the concept of the clone wars
crackhead_bob
Member
I don't mean to pile on the prequel hate bandwagon, but how does Disney address the elephant in the room? The people at Lucasfilm has to know it, and they probably knew it when George Lucas was still its CEO. They'll have to address it at some point.
When they decide to do another promotional rerelease of the films, how are the prequels going to factor in the marketing? When Lucas decided to release the series in 3D, they never made it to Episode II. admittedly in part because of the Disney purchase, but also because episode I probably underperformed. I'm almost certain that if Star Wars 77' had been released instead, it would have made more profit at the box office.
That being said, how do you actually market the prequels? Do you have the cast go on the Today Show and defend what is clearly a crappy product when they're no longer under contractual obligation to speak positively of these films? Would anyone be able to take Matt Lauer seriously if he were giving effusive praise to Attack of the Clones, and how it helped elevated the franchise to new heights?
It's weird how Disney has chosen to sidestep the issue. It's like they have a wife who weighs 900 lbs, but it reluctant to admit it or broach the subject at all. Instead, they dwell on all the peripheral qualities without dealing with any of the symptoms.
When they decide to do another promotional rerelease of the films, how are the prequels going to factor in the marketing? When Lucas decided to release the series in 3D, they never made it to Episode II. admittedly in part because of the Disney purchase, but also because episode I probably underperformed. I'm almost certain that if Star Wars 77' had been released instead, it would have made more profit at the box office.
That being said, how do you actually market the prequels? Do you have the cast go on the Today Show and defend what is clearly a crappy product when they're no longer under contractual obligation to speak positively of these films? Would anyone be able to take Matt Lauer seriously if he were giving effusive praise to Attack of the Clones, and how it helped elevated the franchise to new heights?
It's weird how Disney has chosen to sidestep the issue. It's like they have a wife who weighs 900 lbs, but it reluctant to admit it or broach the subject at all. Instead, they dwell on all the peripheral qualities without dealing with any of the symptoms.
When it comes to general consumers, the prequel haters are not as numerous as they think they are. Disney has to address nothing, really. If the whole set is re-released, it will sell well.
I doubt that they'll ever do a theatrical re-release of the prequels. The home video market may be dead within a decade, so they don't really even have to address it on that smaller stage either. I think at this point 3D is not compelling enough to do re-releases of any old movies....and especially not the prequels.
The prequels are just a way for them to get an extra $40 out of completists who will buy a "Full Saga" box set of the OT+PT, then get an extra $40 out of completists who will buy a "Complete Saga" box set of OT+PT+ST once Episode 9 comes out.
The only question in my mind is if they will disavow the prequels by offering a box set that covers only EP4-9. That'd get a chuckle out of me, though it seems unlikely.
crackhead_bob
Member
They might sell well if they're mandatorily packaged as part of a marathon, but individually? I'm not so sure. If, prior to the release of episode VIII, Disney decides to have marathon screenings of eps I-VII at certain theater chains, I'd like to see what the numbers are of those who actually sit through the prequels before diving into the OT.
I wonder what the home video sales figures are for the box sets and all their different configurations. On their own, how well do the prequels do on DVD/Bluray box sets? How well does the original trilogy box sets do? And imagine the money that would be printed if Disney could get the rights to the original unedited trilogy. It seems like a giant pissing match between Disney, Twentieth Century Fox, and George Lucas. Even if Disney could work out a deal with Fox, I could see George still having a problem with this. But at the same time, having sold his license to Disney for 4.5 billion, would he even have a leg to stand on?
I think you could actually make an argument that TFA does subtly speak on present political issues. Given the First Order is pretty clearly comprised of young people being at the forefront of the command structure, which comes at a distinct contract to how the Empire (and, to a lesser extent, the Sith/Trade Federation/Separatists of the PT) were largely headed up by old men, I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to compare it to the situation we are seeing happening now where we're having a resurgence in the popularity of fascist/nationalist movements around the world with an unsettling amount of support from younger populations.
Also, let's be real. The political commentary in the prequels isn't anything to write home about.
I think the prequels do much better then you are suggesting from a stood back overriding narative perspective. Obviously there are problems with how it's adressed at the interpersonal scale. But from a big picture perspective it's incredibly deep.
Especially with how it manages to tie two eras togeather due to the nature of War. In the OT films "the clone wars" are clearly meant to represent WW2, yet the prequels manage to tie into the general 70s anti war malaise depicted in the OT, while still commenting on the Major conflict of the day. The Iraq war. This is especially evident given the inherent duality of the character of Anakin. ( unfortunately the execution was poor)
As for TFA I don't quite see that. To me it felt like a more personal film about the idea of legacy, and the Voice of Klo Ren is the voice of JJ Abrams because he feels burdened by the weight of expectation. None of this is bad in and of itself. It's just that TFA is so self conscious it never quite finds its own voice. Despite showing flashes of what it could be
But the idea of legacy plays perfectly into what I was saying.
You have this post war era where things were supposed to get better after the great tyrant of the day was defeated. Instead, reality was much more complicated and the world, though better to a point, isn't perfect. Then you have young people growing up to realize that things aren't as perfect as they were told that the war was supposed to make everything, and they start to feel as if the new order lied to them. Then you have an ideologue coming along, spouting off promises to return things to the good old days, because things were better before all these changes happened. They play up the villains of old to be the new heroes, and suddenly you have a legion of young people falling for the message as they become the counter-revolutionary force with the Empire as their legacy. Kylo Ren is a perfect symbol of this, as he's a young person raised by the greatest heroes of the new age but instead falls for the ideologue who appeals instead to his connection to the legacy of the Empire. And because he's uncertain about whether or not the Republic is really right for the world, he ultimately embraces the very fascist ideology his parents' generation fought against.
That said, with us being only one movie into the new trilogy, I'm more than willing to take a step back and wait for the trilogy to end before we start making final calls on what its actual messaging was.
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