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[TheOddOne]

No, he says Microsoft ruined Rare after giving it a seconds more thought.

He then goes on to say he'd love to go back to the old Rare and I'm assuming that means before it was ruined

Too sides to the story though: one he says that Microsoft ruined them, but then says that Rare allowed it to happen.

I'm not knocking the guy or something, because he worked for the company and knows how it internally works. His statements however seem a little contradictory.

 

[Jarmel]

http://www.rare.co.uk/blog/?p=3632

New lobby...no B-K statues, no Joanna statue and the glass cases seem to have been cleaned out of most of their past games memorabilia...

And they're done. So can they just give the IPs to another Microsoft related studio that is actually capable of producing a good game? Force Lionhead to make a new Conker or Banjo game. Lionhead's RPGs are dumbed down as can be, both artistically and gameplay-wise, so it shouldn't be hard for them to adjust and make a platformer.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Lionhead's RPGs are dumbed down as can be, both artistically

Stopped reading right there.

 

[freddy]

Too sides to the story though: one he says that Microsoft ruined them, but then says that Rare allowed it to happen.

I'm not knocking the guy or something, because he worked for the company and knows how it internally works. His statements however seem a little contradictory.

At the point he implied they were ruined by Microsoft they had no choice in allowing it to happen or not. They were employees and had to do what their bosses told them to do. I don't see how his statements are contradictory at all. He clearly said Rare ruined themselves and then corrected himself by saying, 'actually no it was Microsoft that ruined Rare'. Why are you having a problem grasping this?

 

[Jarmel]

Stopped reading right there.

Should have used the term simplified actually. Dumbed down was a bit harsh.

 

[DangerousDave]

Too sides to the story though: one he says that Microsoft ruined them, but then says that Rare allowed it to happen.

In the moment that Rare is owned by MS, Rare don't have any choice to decide what they do or they don't.

Unless "allowed it to happen" means "allowed to be bought by MS".

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Should have used the term simplified actually. Dumbed down was a bit harsh.

How can art direction be "simplified"? In any case, I can understand your views on Fable's gameplay, although I don't necessarily share them, but if you really think that Fable games are not exquisite artistically... Well, I suppose as far as visual tastes go, we have absolutely nothing in common.

 

[Kujo]

"I'd whore myself if I could get Rare back to the way it was. Infact we all said we'd give back all the money Microsoft paid us if we could go back to how it was."

 

[TheOddOne]

At the point he implied they were ruined by Microsoft they had no choice in allowing it to happen or not. They were employees and had to do what their bosses told them to do. I don't see how his statements are contradictory at all. He clearly said Rare ruined themselves and then corrected himself by saying, 'actually no it was Microsoft that ruined Rare'. Why are you having a problem grasping this?

Isn't it odd that he didn't outright say Microsoft fucked Rare first? Why did he say Rare fucked itself first? As much as people want to read into statements, that doesn't seem strange? Also: calm down, your taking this way to personal.

In the moment that Rare is owned by MS, Rare don't have any choice to decide what they do or they don't.

Unless "allowed it to happen" means "allowed to be bought by MS".

What he said that Rare "just went along". He even said that Nuts and Bolts was even worse then what we would have gotten, so something in the company wasn't already right.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Maybe everyone should calm down. Is there a point in discussing what he really meant? I mean, what we have here is a guy who left Rare because he though the company was on a downward slope saying, rather expectedly, that he thinks the company is on a downward slope. Where's the new information that's worth discussing here?

 

[TheOddOne]

Maybe everyone should calm down. Is there a point in discussing what he really meant? I mean, what we have here is a guy who left Rare because he though the company was on a downward slope saying, rather expectedly, that he thinks the company is on a downward slope. Where's the new information that's worth discussing here?

There are two sides to every story, but people seem to forget that. Its strange that he first says "Rare fucked themselfs, sorry I mean Microsoft fucked them", then says "N&B before was even more terrible''. From those statements I get that Rare themselves internally something just wasn't going right. I have no doubt -- I know for sure -- that Microsoft fucked up Rare big time, but it some kind of taboo to say that Rare atleast might some blame in this.

 

[Jarmel]

There are two sides to every story, but people seem to forget that. Its strange that he first says "Rare fucked themselfs, sorry I mean Microsoft fucked them", then says "N&B before was even more terrible''. From those statements I get that Rare themselves internally something just wasn't going right. I have no doubt -- I know for sure -- that Microsoft fucked up Rare big time, but it some kind of taboo to say that Rare atleast might some blame in this.

I'm guessing they were already on their way out and Microsoft just sped up the process.

 

[TheOddOne]

I'm guessing they were already on their way out and Microsoft just sped up the process.

I guess we could discuss in to detail, but it would all be speculation. Comments like those do paint a different picture of whats going on.

 

[freddy]

Isn't it odd that he didn't outright say Microsoft fucked Rare first? Why did he say Rare fucked itself first? As much as people want to read into statements, that doesn't seem strange? Also: calm down, your taking this way to personal.


.

I think that's just how most normal people speak when things are thrown at them out of the blue in a Q&A format. It's pretty clear what he meant.

Also: It's you're, Dr Phil.

 

[TheOddOne]

I think that's just how most normal people speak when things are thrown at them out of the blue in a Q&A format. It's pretty clear what he meant.

Also: It's you're, Dr Phil.

Ok, you know that people are most truthfull when they are talking out of the blue right? My bad that you can't see where i'm coming from, it doesn't mean i'm right though. I hope that eases your mind.

 

[[Nintex]]

There are two sides to every story, but people seem to forget that. Its strange that he first says "Rare fucked themselfs, sorry I mean Microsoft fucked them", then says "N&B before was even more terrible''. From those statements I get that Rare themselves internally something just wasn't going right. I have no doubt -- I know for sure -- that Microsoft fucked up Rare big time. But it some kind of taboo to say that Rare atleast has some blame in this.

Rare and Microsoft's management are to blame for their demise. Current and former Rare employees are slowly coming out of the woodworks to tell their stories. Grant did the music for Rare's most 'popular' recent games like Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts. Those games actually shipped and as a composer he was working on the sidelines at the music department with Beanland. Imagine if Seavor and Edmonds would start doing interviews(no games credited for +5 years) like this. They could talk about the meetings with Microsoft in detail.

The picture that I got from reading various comments/articles/rants and interviews over the years:
- Conker bombs on Xbox, Microsoft doesn't want Rare platformers anymore
- Perfect Dark Zero was 8 months from going gold when Microsoft told Rare to port it to Xbox 360
- Not enough staff on hand so the Conker team was brought in to help finish the game
- Kameo was 12 months from going gold when Microsoft told Rare to port it to Xbox 360
- Not enough staff on hand so the Sabreman Stampede team was brought in to help finish the game
- Both ship despite development troubles. Rare says: "We're surprised Perfect Dark Zero passed Microsoft certification in this state."
- Perfect Dark Zero team splits up
- Rare ships Viva Pinata
- Microsoft starts to meddle with Tim & Chris's pet projects
- Tim & Chris + MS management part ways so both can keep their 'dignity'
- Mayles and Betteridge take over from Tim & Chris
- Microsoft gets into the 'Halo/Gears' rhythm
- Rare gives interview, says they're dissapointed that Viva Pinata didn't get the attention that Gears got
- Banjo gets new game, teaser shown at X08, will be the 'official Xbox 360 mascot"
- Rare says: "new hook for Banjo"
- Edmonds: "I'll show something before the end of 2009 "
- Rare: "Seavor's next game is mindblowing"
- Perfect Dark 2 rumor pops up
- Microsoft shoots down Edmonds MMO
- Banjo Nuts & Bolts leaks before E3
- Banjo ships despite being 'not ready'
- Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts contains more hidden 'anti-Microsoft' messaging than the average Apple/Nintendo fansite
- Banjo bombs
- Select group from Rare goes to the US to discuss the future of the company
- Microsoft shoots down Perfect Dark 2 and other prototypes/games
- MS restructures Rare, focus on Kinect
- Rare opens Fazeley studios
- MS reviews Rare management, replaces Betteridge
- Kinect Fit cancelled
- Kinect Sports ships
- Microsoft/Rare cut art team
- Rare hires new director

 

[TheOddOne]

Rare and Microsoft's management are to blame for their demise. Current and former Rare employees are slowly coming out of the woodworks to tell their stories. Grant did the music for Rare's most 'popular' recent games like Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts. Those games actually shipped and as a composer he was working on the sidelines at the music department with Beanland. Imagine if Seavor and Edmonds would start doing interviews(no games credited for +5 years) like this. They could talk about the meetings with Microsoft in detail.

Thanks for the writeup and not giving me a snarky comment. The major of the problems are still from Microsoft -- which I knew for sure -- but still some things you could question Rare for doing.

 

[flak57]

Thanks for the writeup and not giving me a snarky comment. The major of the problems are still from Microsoft -- which I knew for sure -- but still some things you could question Rare for doing.

From my vantage point you and everyone else actually misread/heard his comment. He didn't contradict himself or have a second thought at all.

He was basically saying that Rare was making bad decisions thanks to the fucking up of their dev culture by Microsoft.

 

[TheOddOne]

From my vantage point you and everyone else actually misread/heard his comment. He didn't contradict himself or have a second thought at all.

He was basically saying that Rare was making bad decisions thanks to the fucking up of their dev culture by Microsoft.

Its kind of funny that people go all crazy with statements and yet when he says its cut and clear what he was saying. Like I said before, I might not be right but his comment paint a two sided story for me.

 

[flak57]

Its kind of funny that people go all crazy with statements and yet when he says its cut and clear what he was saying. Like I said before, I might not be right but his comment paint a two sided story.

No it didn't. A ruined company makes poor decisions.

 

[TheOddOne]

No it didn't. A ruined company makes poor decisions.

Well I'm still entitled to my opinion, so I don't see why people are in such a fuss in what I'm saying. Nintex pretty much wrote down on what I was thinking.

 

[Shiggy]

- Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts contains more hidden 'anti-Microsoft' messaging than the average Apple/Nintendo fansite

What is this about?

 

[flak57]

Well I'm still entitled to my opinion, so I don't see why people are in such a fuss in what I'm saying. Nintex pretty much wrote down on what I was thinking.

His post doesn't support you at all, I'm not sure where you're seeing that.

 

[[Nintex]]

He was basically saying that Rare was making bad decisions thanks to the fucking up of their dev culture by Microsoft.

Ever since Perfect Dark Zero Rare was never the same. Tim, Chris and Microsoft spend a ton on music videos, live action trailers, CG trailers, cinematic trailers[/url], partnerships and more. Needless to say Perfect Dark Zero's sales did not live up to the marketing campaign it got. Afterwards Gears and Viva Pinata released and it goes without saying that Microsoft's interest in Rare quickly dropped.

I remember when Moore left MS and they asked him about Rare. He said something along the lines of: "They're quite talented but their skillset is not suitable for todays market". It's pretty obvious that Rare was pissed at MS for changing their ways and not getting the spotlight next to Halo and it's also clear that MS wasn't happy with Rare's performance over the years. The biggest problem is that a bunch of really talented developers and teams were in the middle of that madness. The only thing we can hope for is that Microsoft gets creative with Rare's IP's and lets Crytek UK develop a real Perfect Dark game or something.

What is this about?

I'd have to fire up the game again to get all the quotes but at the start of the game there are these 'funny' comments from characters:
Mumbo: "Add floaters to you boat or it'll sink like this game at retail"
Then there's the mission objectives:
"We imported this special stuff from overseas to make our games better!"

But the comments and missions get more 'dark' in tone as the game progresses.
"There used to be something really good here, we had to cut that because of deadlines, deadlines eh who needs them?"
And afterwards the animals, pig cops and such start complaining about programmers, managers, corporations and working hours.
"What's with these lay abouts we should fire them on the spot."
Seriously, someone needs to do a text dump of the game, there's some thrilling stuff there. It was in the LOG's lost challenges or something that LOG says: "You might as well try your best because this is probably your last game"

 

[TheOddOne]

His post doesn't support you at all, I'm not sure where you're seeing that.

That the problem lies with as much as MS management as Rare's management. If your thinking that the problem comes from one area then its delusional.

I remember when Moore left MS and they asked him about Rare. He said something along the lines of: "They're quite talented but their skillset is not suitable for todays market". It's pretty obvious that Rare was pissed at MS for changing their ways and not getting the spotlight next to Halo and it's also clear that MS wasn't happy with Rare's performance over the years. The biggest problem is that a bunch of really talented developers and teams were in the middle of that madness. The only thing we can hope for is that Microsoft gets creative with Rare's IP's and lets Crytek UK develop a real Perfect Dark game or something.

Give it to the folks that only did Haze this generation, a game that almost bankrupted them? Dunno, give it to some more capible hands.

 

[Gravijah]

The only thing we can hope for is that Microsoft gets creative with Rare's IP's and lets Crytek UK develop a real Perfect Dark game or something.

Oh god. Don't put things like that in my mind. Don't tease me.

 

[watkinzez]

While I don't doubt Grant's stance on the matter, I hope people take into account the context in which he was answering those questions. (Crazy party with friends where internet people ask him if he likes mudkips.)

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

How much further are Microsoft going to dig that knife?

"I'd whore myself if I could get Rare back to the way it was. Infact we all said we'd give back all the money Microsoft paid us if we could go back to how it was."

You and me both buddy.

 

[V_Ben]

Ever since Perfect Dark Zero Rare was never the same. Tim, Chris and Microsoft spend a ton on music videos, live action trailers, CG trailers, cinematic trailers[/url], partnerships and more. Needless to say Perfect Dark Zero's sales did not live up to the marketing campaign it got. Afterwards Gears and Viva Pinata released and it goes without saying that Microsoft's interest in Rare quickly dropped.

I remember when Moore left MS and they asked him about Rare. He said something along the lines of: "They're quite talented but their skillset is not suitable for todays market". It's pretty obvious that Rare was pissed at MS for changing their ways and not getting the spotlight next to Halo and it's also clear that MS wasn't happy with Rare's performance over the years. The biggest problem is that a bunch of really talented developers and teams were in the middle of that madness. The only thing we can hope for is that Microsoft gets creative with Rare's IP's and lets Crytek UK develop a real Perfect Dark game or something.

Aah. Every time you say that I wish for it. STOP THAT.

 

[flak57]

[QUOTE='[Nintex]
I remember when Moore left MS and they asked him about Rare. He said something along the lines of: "They're quite talented but their skillset is not suitable for todays market". It's pretty obvious that Rare was pissed at MS for changing their ways and not getting the spotlight next to Halo and it's also clear that MS wasn't happy with Rare's performance over the years. The biggest problem is that a bunch of really talented developers and teams were in the middle of that madness. The only thing we can hope for is that Microsoft gets creative with Rare's IP's and lets Crytek UK develop a real Perfect Dark game or something.[/QUOTE]
I doubt that will happen. At this point I think Rare's franchises are pretty much irrelevant and releasing a new game from them would be the same uphill battle as releasing a new IP.

 

[[Nintex]]

How much further are Microsoft going to dig that knife?



You and me both buddy.

Interesting that the guy from FASA said pretty much the same thing. Along with Bungie, who actually managed to break free.

 

[Shiggy]

Aah. Every time you say that I wish for it. STOP THAT.

Don't forget about this :/

 

[[Nintex]]

Don't forget about this :/

She looks so sad

 

[flak57]

That the problem lies with as much as MS management as Rare's management. If your thinking that the problem comes from one area then its delusional.

Microsoft has complete control over Rare's management. If they don't like how things are being run, they make changes.

 

[TheOddOne]

Microsoft has complete control over Rare's management. If they don't like how things are being run, they make changes.

Sign. Every first party company has two sets of management, one internally and one externally. Example: every company out there. Its like some big taboo to say that Rare has some fault in this? As much as people want to blame one party, thats never the case.

 

[flak57]

Sign. Every first party company has two sets of management, one internally and one externally. Example: every company out there. Its like some big taboo to say that Rare has some fault in this? As much as people want to blame one party, thats never the case.

Who is "Rare"?

 

[TheOddOne]

Who is "Rare"?

What? Are you trying to humour me with snarky remarks?

 

[flak57]

What? Are you trying to humour me with snarky remarks?

No. But it's important to note that Rare has constantly been changing throughout its Microsoft adventure, so Rare of 2008 isn't Rare of 2009 and so on. Knowing which Rare you are referring to isn't really a trivial point.

 

[MoneyLaunderer]

I just want Killer Instinct III, if at all possible. But it'll probably never happen.

 

[TheOddOne]

No. But it's important to note that Rare has constantly been changing throughout it's Microsoft adventure, so Rare of 2008 isn't Rare of 2009 and so on. Knowing which Rare you are referring to isn't really a trivial point.

I'm talking about how the development has been over the course since they have been acquired. Its not relevent to put dates on this discussion, because the internal mangement is still there (maby not the guys that use to run it anymore though). That doesn't disprove my point that there are two sets of management, one internally and one externally. This is commen in the industry.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I just want Killer Instinct III, if at all possible. But it'll probably never happen.

Even if Rare had more freedom whit what they made, they won't be willing to work on it. Something about how difficult it would be to jump to today's fighting game market.
Just put KI to rest, it's for you interest's best.

 

[[Nintex]]

Even if Rare had more freedom whit what they made, they won't be willing to work on it. Something about how difficult it would be to jump to today's fighting game market.
Just put KI to rest, it's for you interest's best.

They've been teasing the press about a new KI since... forever, I'm sure they had plans to do one at some point but honestly they had plans for everything from Battletoads to Sabreman.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

I'd have to fire up the game again to get all the quotes but at the start of the game there are these 'funny' comments from characters:
Mumbo: "Add floaters to you boat or it'll sink like this game at retail"
Then there's the mission objectives:
"We imported this special stuff from overseas to make our games better!"

But the comments and missions get more 'dark' in tone as the game progresses.
"There used to be something really good here, we had to cut that because of deadlines, deadlines eh who needs them?"
And afterwards the animals, pig cops and such start complaining about programmers, managers, corporations and working hours.
"What's with these lay abouts we should fire them on the spot."
Seriously, someone needs to do a text dump of the game, there's some thrilling stuff there. It was in the LOG's lost challenges or something that LOG says: "You might as well try your best because this is probably your last game"

This almost makes me want to actually play the game. That's sad.

Spoiler

A text dump would be nice.

 

[donny2112]

Nintendo suffered heavily throughout GameCube and Wii's lifetimes with release/content gaps that would've likely been filled by RARE. RARE isn't RARE anymore, though. Wish they would've never parted, so I wish the Stamper Bros. hadn't wanted to be wholly owned and could've stayed with how things were.

Alas, "only a fool dreams of the one thing he can't have."

This almost makes me want to actually play the game.

It's a good game, particularly if you're not restricted with the platforming to get more vehicle parts early on. Thankfully, there's a bug that lets you lift yourself in the sky to reach more parts earlier.

 

[yoopoo]

So what was the reason that Nintendo dropped it's partnership with Rare?

 

[flak57]

I'm talking about how the development has been over the course since they have been acquired. Its not relevent to put dates on this discussion, because the internal mangement is still there (maby not the guys that use to run it anymore though). That doesn't disprove my point that there are two sets of management, one internally and one externally. This is commen in the industry.

Well, since they've been acquired they've (Rare's management) been answering to Microsoft, and when they disagreed new management ended up being put in place. Seriously, I'm not an industry insider, just read Nintex's post. Microsoft's demands caused quite a few issues and blunders.

I don't know if Rare's management has been infallible in all ways or not and I haven't stated they were.

Although I enjoy debating about strange things, this one is so ridiculous that it has stopped making any sense to me. The fuck happenin here?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Interesting that the guy from FASA said pretty much the same thing. Along with Bungie, who actually managed to break free.

Yup. You have to ask yourself what's going on at some point.

When you have studio's closing left and right which were top of the line studios and others actually buying themselves back from Microsoft that screams that something is wrong.

Ensemble makes some of the best RTS games. Hell they even made a great console RTS in Halo Wars. What happens Microsoft closes them down and the rest start up at two new studios. One of which was working on AOE online and now has been taken off that.

Then you have Bungie. They have created so many amazing games. They actually bought themselves back. Now you know that you normally don't do something like that unless you aren't too happy with your current owners. Microsoft obviously didn't allow that either out of the kindness of their hearts. My money is on Bungie weren't happy and either they were going to go as Bungie or not. Course we'll never know if that is the case.

That is just two cases. Combine that with what is happening to Rare and you can see that something is wrong. There is only one common component in all 3 situations too. That is Microsoft.

 

[[Nintex]]

So what was the reason that Nintendo dropped it's partnership with Rare?

Nintendo stated something like: "Rare sales only accounted for so much of our total sales"

Recently some former Xbox pioneer, I think Ed Fries made comments about the Rare buy out thing. The reason why MS placed a bid of $375 million so no other parties(including Nintendo and Activision) would even think about offering a higher price. Still, Nintendo made it clear that Star Fox, Kameo and Perfect Dark 0 would come out on GameCube. Perfect Dark 0 got delayed untill(how some Rare guys put it): 'when hell defrosts' because the lead programmer was fired. The build they got impressed Miyamoto while according to guys at Rare the new version of Perfect Dark Zero looked like a 'sack of shit'. Progress on Kameo was slow and Starfox was rushed out of the door.

That is just two cases. Combine that with what is happening to Rare and you can see that something is wrong. There is only one common component in all 3 situations too. That is Microsoft.

I'd like to hear the other side of the story from Lionhead and Turn 10 who seem to get along fine with MS. Still, those studios aren't the only ones burned by the partnerships, Microsoft has hired a whole bunch of new developers and artists to work at various first party groups at their campus in Redmond. We've yet to see the results of their new ventures but instead of building studios they could've easily bought a studio so they've clearly changed their ways.

 

[Kujo]

I kinda wish Activision would have bought out Rare when they wanted to. They could have had some more success being multiplatform and we would have at least had 3 yearly Banjo games before they closed em

 

[Hero of Legend]

I kinda wish Activision would have bought out Rare when they wanted to. They could have had some more success being multiplatform and we would have at least had 3 yearly Banjo games before they closed em

We could've also had, at least right around now, a Banjo for Wii by Eurocom ala Goldeneye, adding to the irony.