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"The Sega Sony hardware system" - how Sega of America & Sony tried to team up
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
tiggerkiddo
Member
wow, that's really crazy, poor Sega of America, they tried their best.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I think it was also mentioned in an interview with Nolan Bushnell IIRC for CNBC's show on video game industry.
Digital-Hero
Member
Doubtful, the FF brand was not nearly as big in the states as it is today. In Japan it was quite larger though.
Septimus Prime
Member
It bit Sega to the tune of near extinction.
Sony Imagesoft published a ton of TV and movie adaptations of games. They only developed two games: Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune.
Yeah because right now this new may be Sony dominated like the other 2 gens where there was almost no competition from Nintendo, Sega or MS. Oh joy how fun that will be :|
AFAIK Nintendo signed the contract. So its partly Nintendo's fault since they didn't read over the damned contract.
Just_myles
Member
Wonder what the pricing would be if each of the companies were sharing the loss of each console. Would this mean that the hardware would have been better since they each eat a certain percentage of the loss? Could we have had, like, I don't know M2 graphics in 1995? lol
Cool story.
Cool story.
bishopcruz
Member
So you're suggesting that Sony decided to come up with their own CD-ROM system with no input or a contract from Nintendo? What just for shits and giggles? The Sony CD-ROM deal had been in the works for years and you have no evidence even suggesting that Sony went on 'unofficially' to make the add on unit.
Here's another article that mentions it. Again 1988.
If you have evidence that is contrary to this by all means... I'm all ears. But I see no evidence of this. Also, do you have any proof or even hints that Game Over was wrong about the contract?
As far as Occam's Razor, if you think it is less likely that Sony decided to work on a CD-ROM add on as well as a combined system on their own without a contract from Nintendo I just have no words. It is far more likely that Nintendo never ones to be all that forward thinking when it comes to hardware, thought that CD-ROM wasn't going to go anywhere, until they were shown otherwise?
IrishNinja
Member
really interesting, given how there were some rumblings about this before but nothing i saw that was concrete. id read a book of stuff like this from Kalinske in a minute...it's really heartbreaking seeing all the progressive stuff SOA was doing at this point, but so many seem to think of them and just stuff like 32x
haha, i like this - i never really villified them myself & have enjoyed their hardware, but there was a sentiment that because they were so huge & didn't make games, they were "buying" their way into the industry. what's funny now is, they've invested so much in various studios that they've long since shed that, while i still hear MS get that association
this is a really closed-minded approach; while both esoteric and risque, nintendo fucking games are quietly some of the better ones from that dark scene
haha, i like this - i never really villified them myself & have enjoyed their hardware, but there was a sentiment that because they were so huge & didn't make games, they were "buying" their way into the industry. what's funny now is, they've invested so much in various studios that they've long since shed that, while i still hear MS get that association
this is a really closed-minded approach; while both esoteric and risque, nintendo fucking games are quietly some of the better ones from that dark scene
lazer_bean
Member
yes indeed
i read this post here in another thread maybe 15 minutes ago:
i didn't know what/who vireland was so I googled it.
google brought me back to this post here (from vireland in 2006)
and i'm seeing this sega/sony thread now...
so sorry OP it's old news but well done your thread has more details
IrishNinja
Member
Vic is really awesome, and another person i'd love to read a book by, honestly...the stuff he's dropped over the years across this forum gives an insight to some of gaming's crazier/really interesting years
Digital-Hero
Member
If anyone wants to see the"$299" shot by Sony at E3 1995. Here it is.
Steve Race announces PSX Price:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExaAYIKsDBI
Very eerily similar to Sony's E3 2013 $399 price reception.
Steve Race announces PSX Price:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExaAYIKsDBI
Very eerily similar to Sony's E3 2013 $399 price reception.
Except Sony. LOL.
IrishNinja
Member
only a few gens later, though...
Schweinehund
Member
Like some nerd getting revenge, go go sony.
bishopcruz
Member
I love VIc, he's been honest as to his feelings and not caring what others thought of him ever since I've known him. He was kinda the David Jaffe of the 16 bit era. He did say that whoever got their online infrastructure in place would win this gen though, so great prediction there. He also had a tendency of backing losers for a bit, until he got on the Sony train. Still pissed Cosmic Fantasy 3 never came out here. He was pretty psyched for it back in the day.
Oh they have their levels of shorsightedness too. $599 will be remembered in the gaming annals alongside Sega's early launch and the N64 Japan implosion. Nintendo and Sega in the 90s though had a special case of tunnel vision, and it came around to bite them in the ass.
And because of this, Nintendo became mostly irrelevant in the console scene (especially with always receiving poor 3rd party support), as well as Sega going bankrupt from the gaming hardware business (which is most likely their own doing; Playstation's popularity was the final nail in the coffin for them).
If they could go back in time & fix everything, they would.
Very true, but thanks to that debacle, they've learned their lesson on that as well as learning their lesson on not to make their platforms "undeveloper friendly" like with both PS2 & PS3.
I can't believe how poorly the original PS3 is dating itself so badly.
Really nice to see them go back to angular and PS2 styling with the PS4.
IrishNinja
Member
agreed on the Jaffe bit - by the by, did the Cosmic Fantasy story carry over, or was it more kinda spiritually linked? i don't recall seeing 1 over here either
right, but you've gotta appreciate...while i often highlight nintendo's unique ability to salvage/turn things around with their IPs, sony (and MS, clearly) exists in a spot very few in the short history of consoles ever have: they can afford to hemorrhage billions to learn that lesson & provide what looks to be a great system addressing the great # of issues they'd had (and good call on "undeveloper friendly", i can't remember with PS1 but i know from 2 on that was the trend)
PS1 was very developer friendly, unlike with Sega Saturn which was a pain in the rear for 3rd party developers.
Sony's now headed back down that path with PS4.
bigboss370
Member
more like the underdog shunned by the big boys, only to become a champion.
bishopcruz
Member
Nah, they are all linked, 1-3 have different main characters but in 2 you have links to 1, I still have my Japanese copy of 1 I keep meaning to fumble through, it was pretty cool for what it was, but gameplay was never king in those games. Still 2 was one of my favorites that gen if only for the story going damn dark in ways I didn't expect.
Yeah, but there are limits on both ends. I think people go overboard with Sony bowing out but both MS and Sony need to keep investors happy, and there are definitely limits to how far they can go before having to pack it in.
Fox Mulder
Member
Sure, sega made arcade machines and a few consoles, but Sony was a huge name in electronics and their sound processor in the snes ran laps around the Genesis.
Sucks that sega was so narrow sighted.
You don't read very well. I've said twice now that I believe that Nintendo gave one of their design partners permission to make and sell Nintendo hardware under their own brand. This is not something that Nintendo finds objectionable. Just take a look at the Panasonic Q.
Ken Kutaragi believed that CD ROM technology was the way of the future. I think it's likely that he spoke of this to Nintendo beforehand, in an unofficial capacity, because that's one of the opinions that he held, and because at the time he was speaking things to Nintendo in an unofficial capacity. If he did speak to Nintendo about CD ROM, I'm not sure how much weight that discussion would have held. And that's where misunderstandings can start to creep in.
I believe that after Sony was given permission to make their own Nintendo hardware, Kutaragi was given a green light, so he started making the hardware he wanted. I think the reason for the breakdown, as well as the reason for the inconclusive lawsuits, is because these things weren't clearly defined in any specific "contract" for the SNES CD.
The courts concluded that Sony had the right to make and control the Play Station, and in spite of Sony's "exclusive right", Phillips was allowed to make an entirely different SNES CD.
Yeah, because like IGN, Danny Cowan from 1up is one of the "old guard" of videogame journalism. I'm sure he attended CES in 1991, and has access to controversial and long-buried Japanese contracts. [/sarcasm]
From my experience, David Sheff is the only one who was ever given deep access to this story. Everyone else is basing their stories on his work. And Sheff never said that there were two contracts. Just that both sides had "a contract" which they were pointing to and launching lawsuits over the wording of.
Given the date of the contract, and the lack of clarity (both in terms of mistakes made and solutions afterward), I believe this was not specifically an SNES CD contract, but the possible weakness I described in the sound chip contract (Sony's permission to make hardware, unchecked).
IrishNinja
Member
quite right, but i personally worried more for MS during the low points, as they've dropped out of bigger business before - with sony, what divisions have been nearly as profitable for them as gaming (well, let's say potentially profitable here)? i honestly haven't followed many details on the restructuring
this isn't the same without a kaz avatar
bishopcruz
Member
But again, there is a difference between what you are talking about and the unveiling of a CDROM system at CES. It defies credulity to assume that Sony would do that without at the very least a firm commitment from Nintendo. You state a lot of belief but not a lot of evidence to back it up. Where is the evidence that what you propose is the case?
So where is this story, everything I have read points to the law suits never going forward. I admit I may have missed something, but this is never mentioned. What is mentioned is the fact that Sony didn't go forward with the lawsuits for the reasons I have mentioned before.
SolarPowered
Member
Dammit Sega JP
A juggernaut could have been born. This would have made the PS2 look small.
A juggernaut could have been born. This would have made the PS2 look small.
IrishNinja
Member
...bishopcruz, i don't know how much you know bout this japanese culture (i'm an expert), but something something honor & public sudoku
Sony didn't need any commitment from Nintendo. The original Play Station had no Nintendo branding on it whatsoever. It was entirely Sony branded, right down to the controllers. Sony even verbally claimed total ownership over it.
Kutaragi wanted to see the Play Station get made. I don't think he particularly cared who owned it. He would've been willing to work for Nintendo. But he convinced his bosses that it was a good idea, and showed that he had a permission slip from Nintendo, so Sony let him make it. After it was done, Sony said to Nintendo "What? This thing is ours. We made it."
I don't believe that Nintendo pushed for it's creation, when at the time just about every account says that they had no idea what CD ROM even was. And it's ridiculous to think that Nintendo would contract Sony to build something for them, but neglect to mention that they would like to... you know... have it.
So you're essentially saying that the story makes no sense because Nintendo didn't know what a cd-rom was and wouldn't have some ownership disagreements, but that Kutaragi pulled a quick one by doing everything on his own, some kind of evil masterplan, and somehow convinced Sony top execs that he's been green lit to do this by Nintendo, while showing them a contract about a sound chip. And all this against every single article ever written on the topic.
Makes sense.
Murkster-Dubez
Banned
If you guys like stories like this, one of the best ones is Nintendo and Tetris.
Man, the PS4 is so sexy, Damn!
Sony showing off a Sony-branded console, announcing themselves as “sole worldwide licenser of the Super Disc format,” and convincing third parties to dump Nintendo and join the loving embrace of the Sony camp, because of a technology that by all accounts Nintendo did not understand or desire, is quite a doozy of an ownership disagreement.
http://www.giantbomb.com/ken-kutaragi/3040-48015/
"In the late 1980's Kutaragi realized the exciting potential in video games while watching his daughter playing the Famicom. Ironically, the father of the playstation began working in secret with Nintendo when they needed a wave table sound chip for Nintendo's upcoming new 16-bit system as Sony expressed little interest in the video game industry at the time. As you would expect, Sony executives were furious when they learned Kutaragi was working in secret with Nintendo, it was through Norio Ohga that Kutaragi was able to keep his job at Sony and still complete the project he started with Nintendo, the SPC700.
Kutaragi managed to persuade Sony, again with the help of Sony CEO Norio Ohaga, to fund his next project, The Super NES CD, despite opposition and at a time when video games were regarded as a fad. The Super NES CD would eventually become the Playstation."
"When Nintendo signed Matsushita as the producer of the optical disc drives that power the GameCube, an agreement was struck allowing Matsushita to produce a DVD system with the capability to play GameCube games."
Against articles that blatantly and inaccurately crib from Game Over.
thanks for posting, was a fantastic read.
its so strange the difference in cultures. You see it here in gaming, and in consumer cameras even today, where for the most part the Japanese feel they know best and its very hard to get them to listen to feedback.
its so strange the difference in cultures. You see it here in gaming, and in consumer cameras even today, where for the most part the Japanese feel they know best and its very hard to get them to listen to feedback.
maquiladora
Member
Fasinating, I never knew this either.
Man...some crazy alternative history of games to think about.
Man...some crazy alternative history of games to think about.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Wonder if things would have gone down differently if Sony had approached Sega of Japan first rather than the American brand? Those two halves of Sega back in the 90's were constantly at war with each other.
Terrible Majesty
Member
This.made me physically ROFL. Thanks.
crimzonflame
Member
makes me wonder why we are only hearing about this now.
You mean this?
That came way later, when shit had hit the fan already.
This "secret" bit is well known and is about the sound chip. He did that on his own. That says nothing about the snes-cd deal.
"When Nintendo signed Matsushita as the producer of the optical disc drives that power the GameCube, an agreement was struck allowing Matsushita to produce a DVD system with the capability to play GameCube games."
So in order to prove that Nintendo had not part in it, you give an example of Nintendo allowing Matsushita to produce a DVD player playing Nintendo games. That's rather confusing.
OK. Well as others have said, where's the backup for all this other than "I refuse to believe that Nintendo would have done this!"?
I mean it's a bit odd that Nintendo Power would talk about a "cd-rom unit currently being developped jointly by Nintendo and Sony" back in their June 1991 issue.
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