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The Wii U gamepad, Gaikai and why I don't think streaming is a good match for games

Last night I made the poor choice of picking up a Wii U despite knowing that a price drop was imminent. I didn't grab any Wii U games and instead opted to transfer over all my VC games from my Wii and upgrade a few to the Wii U versions. There are some games I must have down the line, but nothing currently. The idea of playing F-Zero on the pad while chilling in bed was exciting. Say of that what you will! This post isn't to talk shit on the Wii U. I've always loved Nintendo and I have no doubt that games will come out in the future that will justify this purchase.

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Playing SNES games on the gamepad makes the console's flaws immediately obvious. I've played F-Zero and Super Mario World very frequently on original hardware all though my life. The tiny delay on the gamepad was instantly noticeable to me as the car feels slightly out of control in F-Zero. Mario's jumps are harder to adjust and land properly. If anyone has noticed how shitty F-Zero GX plays with a Wavebird then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

With the way VC works on Wii U this problem is even more obvious as the game plays on the television and on the gamepad simultaneously. I can control my car in F-Zero just like I have for the past....22 years (holy shit) while looking at what's displayed on the television, but the moment I start using the gamepad I notice that the controls are no longer the razor-sharp F-Zero I've always loved. You can eventually compensate, but it never feels quite right. I really do feel that with streaming video, even locally with the Wii U, precision controls go out the window. I'm not the type of gamer that is okay with that.

I was excited about the prospect of playing any Playstation game through Gaikai's streaming service. It's an interesting way to handle the backwards compatibility situation. Last night's Wii U experience has made me aware that I won't exactly be able to play platformers or racing games with any real precision if the local streaming to the Wii U gamepad isn't up to snuff. Dealing with the lag produced by flat screen televisions is problem enough.

I did think that maybe "modern" video games won't have much of an issue with this as many have lower framerates than 2D games from the 16 bit glory days and gameplay that isn't as reliant on controls being tight, but after this I won't be attempting to play an action game like Bayonetta 2 on the gamepad's screen.

If streaming games are the solution to backward compatibility, what will be the price we pay? I don't feel like this is something the general public will care that much about, but as a gamer who's been in the hobby for quite a while I have my doubts about streaming and games ever working well together in the near future. GAF, I'd love to hear your thoughts and feelings on this topic!

Edit: It appears that the issue I'm having could be something other than the streaming of the game to the gamepad. Button lag, emulation of VC games, my TV, the new controller or the position of the gamepad's screen. Who knows for sure. Don't you miss the days of simple gaming? Hopefully GAF can help me figure this all out!
 

Damian.

Banned
I thought that the gamepad actually has lower latency than what is on the TV screen and is a few frames ahead? Wouldn't that make it more ideal?
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I never had any problem playing F-Zero on the wavebird, nor have I noticed any delay on the gamepad

This.

I've played over 50 hours of VC games on the gamepad and not once have I noticed any delay at all. Nothing.
 
I have the exact opposite issue. If I play VC games on the TV the controls feel a step behind. They feel perfect on the gamepad for me though, and I basically always look at the gamepad, even when playing on the TV.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
I thought that the gamepad actually has lower latency than what is on the TV screen and is a few frames ahead? Wouldn't that make it more ideal?
Depending on the input lag your TV has (which can be surprisingly high on modern TVs) I find that believable.
 
I haven't had any issues playing F-Zero on my gamepad, or any game really. I admit I never played F-zero on an actual SNES but I have no problems controlling the car.
 

Denzar

Member
I don't feel like this is something the general public will care that much about, but as a gamer who's been in the hobby for quite a while I have my doubts about streaming and games ever working well together in the near future. GAF, I'd love to hear your thoughts and feelings on this topic!

I'm with you, but I haven't played games via remote play on Wii U or PSP yet.


I'll believe it when I see it.

The prospect of it sounds extremely promising though.
 
well isn't this no latency feature the ONLY original tech that makes the WiiU expensive? If what the OP mentions is true, what justifies the price of the machine?
 

Vandiger

Member
I thought lag was not an issue while playing games on the tablet. Thanks for being so OCD about it, this was news to me.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
well isn't this no latency feature the ONLY original tech that makes the WiiU expensive? If what the OP mentions is true, what justifies the price of the machine?

What he's saying has to be the result of either too much distance from the machine itself, a system error, or playing through walls, etc. I've never heard anybody complain about the gamepad latency. It has been perfect in literally every game I've played.
 
well isn't this no latency feature the ONLY original tech that makes the WiiU expensive? If what the OP mentions is true, what justifies the price of the machine?

I like how you ignore the numerous other posts saying they haven't perceived lag and instantly side with the OP...

Regardless, the Wii U gamepad has been reported to have lower latency than most modern HD televisions so the OP is free to play the game on the original consoles but there's only going to be more lag...
 

Mileena

Banned
I've only got Super Metroid, MMX and SGnG and never noticed a problem with lag or delay. Never noticed it on MH3U or NSMBU either. I love the old games on the pad, its amazing
 

Skilletor

Member
I thought that the gamepad actually has lower latency than what is on the TV screen and is a few frames ahead? Wouldn't that make it more ideal?

This.

I played through the entirety of NG3 and SMBU on the gamepad, along with Metroid and Mario World. Haven't noticed any lag.
 

Taker666

Member
I find the gamepad has less lag than my Panasonic,Sony and LG HDTV's.

Hell I'd actually like an option to add lag to the gamepad so the sound is in sync with my tv (by the gamepad having far less lag it can make speech a bit garbled due to two conflicting audio tracks).
 

Berg

Member
do we know if the ps4 -> Vita uses the same streaming tech? I've never had lag problems with my wiiU and VC games.
 

Disguises

Member
What!? The gamepad has less lag than my TV. I didn't know it was that bad until the Wii U. Somethings fishy about this...

For people who complain about lag with LCD TVs, I would be curious to know what kind of LCD TV you have. Probably a cheap one. I have a Sharp 70" and a Samsung 52" and have never observed any sort of input lag issue with them.
LG DM2350D. There's a noticeable difference when I press the HOME button on the Wii U. Less than half a second (maybe even less than 1/4), but noticeable still.
 

RulkezX

Member
It's because of the game pad I believe the local streaming will work. I've never noticed any lag, at all, on my U using off-tv play.

Streaming over the internet ala On-Live etc a terrible experience, but locally on the gamepad its brilliants, and I am sure the Vita will be too.
 

n64coder

Member
For people who complain about lag with LCD TVs, I would be curious to know what kind of LCD TV you have. Probably a cheap one. I have a Sharp 70" and a Samsung 52" and have never observed any sort of input lag issue with them.
 
yeah I don't agree with this. I have played Super Mario World thousands of times on my Snes and playing on my gamepad it feels exactly the same to me.

I also haven't noticed any input lag whatsoever with my gamepad.
 

jaypah

Member
I didn't have any significant problems playing F-Zero or SMW on the GamePad. Punch-Out was another story.

This. Playing Punch-Out on the gamepad then immediately playing it on 3DS the difference is definitely there. Decades of muscle memory show up flawlessly on the 3DS version where as I feel like I'm compensating for lag on the gamepad.
 

majik13

Member
I have the exact opposite issue. If I play VC games on the TV the controls feel a step behind. They feel perfect on the gamepad for me though, and I basically always look at the gamepad, even when playing on the TV.

same,

and it has been pretty well established that the gamepad has very low latency. As many people have already said lower than most modern tvs.

perhaps OP is used to older TVS from the snes era. Anyone know if latency or lag was better or worse on those tvs? I would assume probably a CRT and low latency as well.
 

bomblord

Banned
OP i think they lag your experiencing is the TV lagging behind the gamepad not the other way around.

The wiiU's gamepad lag is less than 1/60th of a second to be blunt there is no way you can notice that.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
I believe someone tested the gamepad and it has 1-2 frames of lag. This is VERY GOOD for a display nowadays. Shoryuken.com's tech talk sub-forum had to create a list of monitors that are sub-1 frame just because of how terrible almost all flatscreens are nowadays with input lag. If you aren't playing on a CRT or you didn't buy your TV specifically for its lack of input lag, chances are that your TV is MUCH MORE LAGGY than the gamepad.

The best HDTVs/monitors have ~0.5-1 frame of lag. "Acceptably lagless" is up to about 2 frames of lag (although if you're used to one frame, two frames can mess you up). Most modern HDTVs have several frames of lag. Like I said, if you walk into a store and randomly get a TV, 95-99% chance it's more laggy than your GamePad (and in many cases, a LOT more laggy).

That isn't to say that what you're feeling is wrong, though. Many games require very precise motions/timings (rhythm games/fighting games) and even small amounts of lag like 1-2 frames can throw off someone's timing. However, if you're able to play on your main TV (assuming it's a flatscreen) and not feel lag, chances are you're just used to laggy setups.
 
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