-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Wii U gamepad, Gaikai and why I don't think streaming is a good match for games
- Thread starter patrickthehedgehog
- Start date
Interceptor
Banned
OP talks pure nonsens. The gamepad displays the image even faster than the average TV today. Maybe he wasn´t ready to handle F-Zero without lag. 
There actually is minor controller latency even on the original Wii VC compared to playing a game on a SNES. It's nothing world-ending but it makes for a minor difference if you're trying to do something extremely precise like super short charges in Super Metroid.
It's quite possible the Wii U VC has similar issues, totally unrelated to the display. Input lag (within certain limits) will be pretty much unnoticeable to someone who only occasionally plays a particular game, and will eventually be adapted to.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Depends on the TV. Mine is about on par. Gamepad is faster than most.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
So many factors at play here. I miss the days of the old consoles and CRTs.
I know my LCD TV is somewhat old, but it's a smaller screen and I've never had latency issues with it in rhythm games like Rock Band or whatever. I've definitely noticed latency playing at other people's houses on their giant LED TVs.
Yes. 3DS is hardwired with no post-processing, there is no lag.
What's your source for that?
Meh. Most of you guys are flat out wrong. I get that you guys are trying to help the OP, but if you're going to be confident in your answers, at least do some research.
EDIT: Maybe Fantastic-attacking on ITG would be harder to do. Perfect attacking has a fairly big window. Oh and also I mean transitioning between lagless and laggy displays. Obviously if someone only practices on laggy setups, they'll be able to do well in rhythm games with that same lag.
1) You are used to a CRT. The screen WILL feel different because it does have more lag. 1-2 frames more. That's assuming you've played a while on your CRT and you're used to precise movements/timings.
2) The screen position makes a big difference. Using DDR as another example, try playing on an arcade cabinet that has a screen right next to your face vs one that's a few feet away from the screen. You can't react the same in both situations.
Here's a good list: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database/p1
From what I read, the gamepad has at most 2 frames of lag, so anything less than 33ms should have less lag.
This is straight wrong. 100% straight wrong. Most games it doesn't matter at all, but try perfect-attacking DDR with half a frame or a full frame of lag. One frame of lag makes a big difference in games that require precise timing. High level/competitive Mario may be one of those games. It's easy to adjust to one frame of lag if you're used to it, but going from years of zero lag to one frame definitely feels off for most people.
EDIT: Maybe Fantastic-attacking on ITG would be harder to do. Perfect attacking has a fairly big window. Oh and also I mean transitioning between lagless and laggy displays. Obviously if someone only practices on laggy setups, they'll be able to do well in rhythm games with that same lag.
Two things that are affecting you:
1) You are used to a CRT. The screen WILL feel different because it does have more lag. 1-2 frames more. That's assuming you've played a while on your CRT and you're used to precise movements/timings.
2) The screen position makes a big difference. Using DDR as another example, try playing on an arcade cabinet that has a screen right next to your face vs one that's a few feet away from the screen. You can't react the same in both situations.
Many monitors/TVs do but you have to specifically look for them.
Here's a good list: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database/p1
From what I read, the gamepad has at most 2 frames of lag, so anything less than 33ms should have less lag.
The game still plays at the same speed, but your timing is thrown off. Imagine if the game had ten minutes of input lag and every time you hit the jump button, you had to wait ten minutes for Mario to jump. Would that still play the same?
Most first party controllers use pretty much lagless wireless connections.
Play on a CRT. It'll be less laggy than the gamepad.
Wavebird might have lag; I'm not too familiar with that. I know that newer wireless controllers are pretty much the same thing as wired controllers though.
D
Deleted member 59090
Unconfirmed Member
OP you should get into fighting games.
You should make a test like in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM_jlMy3F3Y
Record both the TV and the Gamepad at the same time, find a frame of reference and see where the lag is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM_jlMy3F3Y
Record both the TV and the Gamepad at the same time, find a frame of reference and see where the lag is.
Art.Menegatti
Member
gamepad delay??? lol no.
SuddenlyCORGIS
Neo Member
Hey, if any of you guys immediately dismissing the OPs concern are poly, console-wise, the XBone could really use your help running damage control after their unveiling.
They have some things in need of immediate dismissal.
They have some things in need of immediate dismissal.
Thanks. So a game like Punch-Out will feel different. I swear the difference is night and day. The 3DS feels like what the game always feels like. The gamepad feels different. Fighting Sodapop and Sandman was actually difficult.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Might be the emulation on VC games. I tried the Resident Evil Revelations demo and I didn't notice any issues, but I'm not familiar with how the game feels.
I know what you mean, but to have 0 frames of lag, it means that the console is reading in your mind
If you press a button during a certain frame, the movement will appear in the next.
It might happen that you press a button during the 15th millisecond of the first frame and the action still register for the next, but that's still a fraction of a frame.
Oppo
Member
I was curious about this too but I couldn't find anything definitive in a few minutes of searching.
I did see that the Rayman devs claim 1/60th frame response on the pad. But that's for a native Wii U game, not sure about VC stuff.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
I wonder why it took so long for VC to come to the Wii U and why they're being really slow with games after everything has already been good to go for the Wii.
Metroid Killer
Member
As a former webmaster of an F-Zero fansite with a rather large forum at the time(we got a spot at the smashboards actually) I've heard or experienced anything like this myself, and I've been using the wavebird a lot during the gc era.
That's not how input lag works. There's obviously still a delay from when you hit the button till when the move comes out, but we're talking about the delay from perfect conditions to when shows up on a particular screen.I know what you mean, but to have 0 frames of lag, it means that the console is reading in your mind
If you press a button during a certain frame, the movement will appear in the next.
It might happen that you press a button during the 15th millisecond of the first frame and the action still register for the next, but that's still a fraction of a frame.
I think in the early days someone did. Eurogamer maybe?
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Seriously? I have a hell of a time playing the game on the Wavebird. Plug in a normal GC pad and it feels perfect. Maybe it's a matter of people using the Wavebirds being adjusted to how it plays with a Wavebird? When I play on the WB the car feels a lot more twitchy, in a bad way.
PreyingShark
Member
For the record, on the HDMI 1/DVI port our TV has less display lag than the gamepad. So it doesn't necessarily have less display lag than his TV.
As somebody who owns all the PS2 DDR games (minus X2) and ITG, I can confirm what he says. I'm also saddened that there are people who are attempting to play rhythm games on HDTVs, don't know that they need to calibrate for lag, and as such are having a much harder time than they should. XP EDIT: Not that rhythm games should be played on laggy displays to begin with.
As somebody who owns all the PS2 DDR games (minus X2) and ITG, I can confirm what he says. I'm also saddened that there are people who are attempting to play rhythm games on HDTVs, don't know that they need to calibrate for lag, and as such are having a much harder time than they should. XP EDIT: Not that rhythm games should be played on laggy displays to begin with.
This seems pretty meaningless unless you specify the FPS. 1 frame at 30 fps is 2 frames at 60fps is 4 frames at 120 fps.
The thing I hate about playing F-Zero on the gamepad is the compression. There's no fucking delay, however. It's as close to an SNES hooked up to a CRT as you're going to get.
And claiming that wavebirds add delay is also ludicrous.
You're imagining things.
Uh, no.
Delay is measured between when a frame is rendered and when a frame is physically displayed.
There's no reason to think there's an additional delay when emulating an old game.
Unless you're privy to the technical details of the Wii U's gamepad stream encoder, then you have no basis to compare its delay to the delay on the wired video output.
And claiming that wavebirds add delay is also ludicrous.
You're imagining things.
Uh, no.
Delay is measured between when a frame is rendered and when a frame is physically displayed.
There's no reason to think there's an additional delay when emulating an old game.
Unless you're privy to the technical details of the Wii U's gamepad stream encoder, then you have no basis to compare its delay to the delay on the wired video output.
Sorry, the talk is mostly within a fighting game context so it's always 1 frame = 16.6667 ms (60 fps). Even if a fighting game runs at 30fps, it takes inputs at 60 fps.
EDIT: Oh one thing that I hate about VC on WiiU is that it seems to stutter at times. I played Megaman X and Super Mario World and they both seemed to stutter at different times. Also, I agree with the OP that trying to speedrun SMW on the Gamepad feels "off." I thought he was using an HDTV to compare to, which would be super confusing. But if he's used to playing SMW on a CRT like I am, then I can see why he feels the way he does.
I have Fzero on my WiiU and seriously there is no delay. The whole thing about images showing on the pad before the screen is true, so if you are getting a delay it is one of three things.
1) You are past the range of the controller and are experiencing transmission breaks.
2) You have a defective pad.
3) You are perceiving something you "want" to see.
1) You are past the range of the controller and are experiencing transmission breaks.
2) You have a defective pad.
3) You are perceiving something you "want" to see.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Okay, that's helpful. What makes all F-Zero games so fun is how tight the controls are. I can always go play it on the SNES, but that doesn't make this a non-issue.
Yeah, the compression is terrible. I was really surprised to see that.
I don't think I'm alone in believing the Wavebird has some level of delay even if it's small.
scarybore
Member
116ms ahead? That is one shitty TV. I think it was Eurogamer that measured the gamepads latency to be about 2 frames (32ms) so that tv would be 9 frames behind generally if my maths are right.
I do the feel the latency of the gamepad a bit when playing Punch-out, but with F-Zero my biggest problem was the compression which is just horrible.
You're not alone in believing it. You'd be alone if you could actually demonstrate it.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Because only on GAF will I be able to talk to people that might have some idea what I'm talking about. Clearly that doesn't include you so it might be best to avoid this thread. Thanks!
NotoriousPUG
Member
If what you're referring to is the stutter that's most prominent in Armored Armadillo's stage on the rail cart, that stutter was in the SNES carts too. I always remembered that distinctly as a kid too.
TheGreyHulk
Member
I never played f-zero on it, but i definitely noticed it while playing punch-out. It was just a tad off at times that i was getting hit by the first guy... the first guy who you demolish with your eyes closed.
it wasn't horrible lag, but for any game requiring precise timing, you can notice it at times.
bodeiseifer
Member
i haven't noticed any lag on the gamepad, i'm surprised you didn't mention how shit f zero is with the compression, it looks a mess on the gamepad.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
I'd rather be totally wrong than have a busted system. I'll have to mess with it some more later.
I suppose I can record a video holding the gamepad by the tv screen and do a comparison. Won't help if it's input latency causing the control issues though.
Haha no not that. I played both games a TON when I was a kid (didn't have anything else to do) and even played both fairly recently before it came out on WiiU. I noticed the stutter in SMW on the first stage on the right and Mega Man X Storm Eagle stage. It didn't happen in the real versions of the games and it looked like WiiU stutter. No idea what it's from though.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Oh, I noticed alright. Something about the greys used in the distance on the track mixed in with the strange mode 7 resolution stuff that happens on the horizon.
The average human reaction time is between .15 and .3 seconds the wiiU gamepad lag is .16 seconds.
It's not about reaction time. If a roach is running in front of you, are you able to step on it even though it's moving? Now if a note is running up a screen (DDR), are you able to step on the button panel with accuracy?
In DDR, a Marvelous is 1 frame timing. You have one frame to hit the panel. Let's say you have perfect accuracy so you can hit the Marvelous on that one frame every single time. Okay now add one frame of input lag. Guess what? Now you're hitting the panel one frame late every single time and you're not getting Marvelous.
Mental Atrophy
Banned
It's possible that any input latency on the gamepad could be related to Nintendo's VC emulators. I don't have hands-on experience, but I know there are plenty of technical demonstrations that show the tablet's display is very responsive so it can't be that.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
yeah, take this OP with a bucketload of salt guys. I've NEVER experienced any lag, nor have I ever before even heard of it.
Streaming, when done right like with the Wii U, is awesome and works perfect.
Streaming, when done right like with the Wii U, is awesome and works perfect.