Old CRT displays had very, very low input lag. Almost non-existent.
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The Wii U gamepad, Gaikai and why I don't think streaming is a good match for games
- Thread starter patrickthehedgehog
- Start date
Old CRT displays had very, very low input lag. Almost non-existent.
DashReindeer
Lead Community Manager, Outpost Games
So, this is either all in your head, or this is a weird troll thread because the latency on your Gamepad is at the worst equal to the latency of your television.
Beaten already, but it never hurts to repost this. Digital Foundry did an analysis on the Gamepad latency, which you can look into here. Essentially it shows that that this really shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Virtual Console games on the Gamepad is one of the best uses of the Wii U (besides MonHun of course).
Beaten already, but it never hurts to repost this. Digital Foundry did an analysis on the Gamepad latency, which you can look into here. Essentially it shows that that this really shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Virtual Console games on the Gamepad is one of the best uses of the Wii U (besides MonHun of course).
I completely disagree. I've played through probably a quarter of NSMB U on it, and I've played the demo of Rayman Legends on it, and they are both perfect, no different than playing on my TV. I think what I'm hearing from you is seriously the first time I've ever heard this complaint about the Gamepad.
Some CRTs did lag (surprisingly) although I imagine it was probably more likely to be the HD CRTs. Also, a lot of CRTs lagged more the longer they stayed on.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Hey, just bought my Wii U and I'll be the first to admit I want to be wrong about this! I have an SNES hooked up to a crt in my room that I play frequently and playing these games on the gamepad felt off by comparison. Someone has to at least admit that GX with Wavebird is shit.
Mockingbird
Member
this
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
OP, what is the make and model of your TV and have you played F Zero on it before?
Edit:
Edit:
Oh, you are using a CRT. Yeah, as far as I know nothing is faster.
UncleSporky
Member
It is probably due to not being used to having the screen in the middle of the controller, your hand placement is different, the buttons feel different.
Maybe buttons have to be pressed slightly farther to register than on the SNES. Maybe you used the joystick and it's obviously not going to be as snappy and precise as the d-pad.
My friend also said Super Metroid felt weird, but he knew what to blame, and that's the controller difference.
I mentioned it in the Punch-Out thread when it was 30¢. I literally sat there fighting Sodapop on the gamepad with my 3DS in my lap. Pinpoint timing on 3DS, noticeable difference on gamepad. I don't use the TV for Punch-Out specifically because of the gamepad having better response. It's weird.
Just because you haven't perceived it, doesn't mean it's not there. I own a 50" 2009 Panasonic plasma 42" 2010 Panasonic plasma, and they both have slight input lag, even though it's not extreme. You are probably just used to it like most of us are.
I Stalk Alone
Member
you are either lying or playing
from your gamecube basement and your wii u is next to anne frank.
the wii u gamepad has 16ms of lag as specification so one frame of lag. that is acceptable for a 60fps game.
not saying you are pulling our legs mate but i sense some tugging going on.
oh you have a crt? carry on. yes you will feel something is off if you are using your wii u connected to your hdcrt's hdmi.
can you use the wii component cables on the wii u?
from your gamecube basement and your wii u is next to anne frank.
the wii u gamepad has 16ms of lag as specification so one frame of lag. that is acceptable for a 60fps game.
not saying you are pulling our legs mate but i sense some tugging going on.
oh you have a crt? carry on. yes you will feel something is off if you are using your wii u connected to your hdcrt's hdmi.
can you use the wii component cables on the wii u?
Op use this method to test your gampead
http://www.negativeworld.org/article.php?id=9891&pagenumber=1#.UbtGdJzNnTo
http://www.negativeworld.org/article.php?id=9891&pagenumber=1#.UbtGdJzNnTo
plagiarize
Banned
while the wavebird does have latency, it is less than most people can notice, as is the lag on the Wii u gamepad. Basically you are especially sensitive to input lag.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
If the OP can actually sense one frame of latency in a 60fps game, well, then that's pretty impressive.
The OP is not full of it. He plays on a CRT. This is more a thread about someone learning that CRT are still unmatched when it comes to input lag.
He is Neo.
I believe when people complain about lag on the GamePad, what they're actually experiencing, often for the first time in years, is the relative lack thereof. Because GamePad latency is just 16ms. I experienced this as well when I got my Wii U and used off-TV play for the first time. I was so used to my laggy flatscreen that the timing on the GamePad felt completely wrong.
Wrong. Double the lag of a typical CRT tv, which is what the OP has been playing on.
I Stalk Alone
Member
its not that his reaction rate is faster its just that when his reaction rate kicks in it feels longer than it should so yes it is possible for anyone to notice it coming from a crt
To be blunt the Op would have to be ridiculously sensitive to pick up on a 1/60th of a second difference.
theoretically it's not impossible but i've never known anyone in my life to be that sensitive.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
I appreciate all the responses and viewpoints obviously.
I believe my flatscreen is this: Sony Bravia S-Series KDL-32S3000 32-Inch 720p LCD HDTV
Yet as I said I frequently play these games on a CRT with an SNES. I'm not saying my Wii U on the TV experience is identical to the SNES on CRT, but it certainly felt more "right" as proven by my control of the car being better.
The poster who mentions the screen being between my hands in a strange position might be on to something. If tests have proven that the gamepad is super low latency then it probably it's quite possible that it's the unfamiliar controller or screen placement.
Oh man, I guess this wouldn't be GAF if people weren't calling me out as an Xbone spy!
I hope this is the case!
I also want to say that the specific control issue I notice is the tap-left tap-right tap-left movements done with the d-pad to straighten out the direction of the car of adjusting Mario's landing. Not sure if that helps... sort of hard to explain. Oh, and I'm playing right in front of the television. About 4-5 feet away from the system. I'll have to try that gamepad test when I get home today.
I believe my flatscreen is this: Sony Bravia S-Series KDL-32S3000 32-Inch 720p LCD HDTV
Yet as I said I frequently play these games on a CRT with an SNES. I'm not saying my Wii U on the TV experience is identical to the SNES on CRT, but it certainly felt more "right" as proven by my control of the car being better.
The poster who mentions the screen being between my hands in a strange position might be on to something. If tests have proven that the gamepad is super low latency then it probably it's quite possible that it's the unfamiliar controller or screen placement.
Oh man, I guess this wouldn't be GAF if people weren't calling me out as an Xbone spy!
I hope this is the case!
I also want to say that the specific control issue I notice is the tap-left tap-right tap-left movements done with the d-pad to straighten out the direction of the car of adjusting Mario's landing. Not sure if that helps... sort of hard to explain. Oh, and I'm playing right in front of the television. About 4-5 feet away from the system. I'll have to try that gamepad test when I get home today.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I have no personal experience but it looks really bad judging by the videos I've seen of LBP. As far as I know the PS4 will use an adhoc wifi connection with the Vita, so it will be streaming directly, like the Wii U.
Yeah we're comparing ~16ms on the U to 8 or less for CRT, both incredibly low
Outtrigger888
Member
Im a musician, so my sense of timing has been in training for over 10 years.
In no way is there note worthy lag with the gamepad.
Playing the octopus dance game will clarify this.
In no way is there note worthy lag with the gamepad.
Playing the octopus dance game will clarify this.
This
I'm not aware of any TVs that have less lag than the GamePad, unless they are CRTs
It made me realize how much lag my TV had, and my TV wasn't one of the really bad ones with lots of lag either.
yeah but playing Punch-Out on most modern TVs the lag is even worse.
Oh, well...in some ways I guess that will work better, but in other ways, it significantly reduces how far away from the PS4 you can get with your Vita, especially if you live in a large house.
no it does not really work that way. The screen may refresh faster but the game still plays at the same speed.
Also The difference would be less than the time it takes for your flatscreen to refresh. If he really notices that then he has super powers.
Glass Rebel
Member
First time I hear about the Wii U pad having such low latency.
Guess that makes it the perfect system for Bayonetta 2
ヽ(´ー`)人(´∇｀
人(`Д´)ノ
Guess that makes it the perfect system for Bayonetta 2
ヽ(´ー`)人(´∇｀
人(`Д´)ノDead Man Typing
Member
The Gamepad screen is lower latency than most flat screen TV's but the control input is wireless and may still lag behind a wired SNES controller. (I haven't seen any tests or comparisons done with the Wii U gamepad in this regard)
That doesn't explain why the OP thinks it feels right when playing on his flatscreen TV vs the gamepad screen - both are using the same wireless controller input from the pad. Might just be a trick of the mind.
That doesn't explain why the OP thinks it feels right when playing on his flatscreen TV vs the gamepad screen - both are using the same wireless controller input from the pad. Might just be a trick of the mind.
Zoramon089
Banned
Like I said, if the OP plans on playing any old titles the Wii U gamepad is the closest he's going to get to playing on a CRT. Playing on most HD TVs will have comparable, if not larger, lag
Of course the GamePad has more lag compared to a CRT, nothing can compare to the low lag of a CRT.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Maybe it isn't the streaming but controller latency? I just never noticed it before when playing VC games on the original Wii with the classic controller.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Reggie have mercy on my soul! If the tests prove that the gamepad is close to a CRT in what it is displaying then that's great. I feel bad about shitting on the Wii U in the title. I'm still suspicious that input lag might be playing into what I'm experiencing.
Uh, the Gamepad's screen displays quicker than my TV does, so I don't know how your TV's the thing that's devoid of latency.
Not to mention they look better on the pad due to the higher DPI.
Not to mention they look better on the pad due to the higher DPI.
Yes, but as I mentioned I only play the WiiU Punch-Out on the pad (not the tv) specifically because of modern TV lag.
This can all be summed up by asking if anyone knows if there is a response difference between the WiiU pad and the 3DS? If so then problem solved.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
You know what you have to do! Hook your Wii U up to your CRT and test the input lag. Bomblord posted this earlier:
http://www.negativeworld.org/article.php?id=9891&pagenumber=1#.UbtGdJzNnTo
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Comparing the Gamepad to cloud gaming in this manner is extremely unfair to the Gamepad.
If 16ms isn't good enough for you, then no flatscreen display will be either, and Gaikai will be an order of magnitude worse.
If 16ms isn't good enough for you, then no flatscreen display will be either, and Gaikai will be an order of magnitude worse.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
I'm not lying. I'm trying to understand why the games feel weird on the gamepad. I assumed it was due to the streaming, but it seems like I'm wrong. Hence posting a thread asking other's opinions.
One thing the gamepad does have for a fact is artifacting on the horizon in F-Zero!
I'd still appreciate it if more F-Zero GX experts would chime in about the Wavebird being terrible for the game after playing so long on a wired controller.
Like the hat?
Banned
I can only play vc games on the pad screen. On the tv is when I get the delay issue.
Flying Toaster
Member
This is true, it is powered by magic but depending on how close you are to Ley lines makes a difference to how well games play.
flatearthpandas
Member
I have bad news for you.
Vita lags like a motherfucker on PS1 games. Xenogears is nigh unplayable for me. The good news is that PS1 games and their saves can just be downloaded onto the Vita, but that's not remote play at that point.
My experience with SotC/Ico was a bit better, oddly, but it's still nothing to write home about. I've heard good things about LBP2 controller functionality but haven't tried that myself.
The PS4 Remote Play is supposed to work better since the PS4 is built for it, but still remains to be seen.
Fredrik
Member
Lots of people connect the consoles through a receiver too which make the TV lag even worse, especially if both the TV and the receiver processes the image.
My Samsung 6-serie LED + Marantz 6006 receiver is an awful combo when i comes to lag unless I run everything in "Game mode", there is still lag but it's fine with most current gen games, I wouldn't start counting frames in fighting games though.
A real NES/SNES hooked to a CRT is 0 frames of lag
A Wii U emulating that game on a CRT is 1 frame of lag
A Wii U emulating that game AND sending it to the gamepad is 2 frames of lag
Most HDTVs are 3-4 frames of lag
2 frames is definitely noticeable when your frame of reference is no lag at all, a single frame CAN be noticed but won't "feel" off unless you are doing a direct immediate comparison
A Wii U emulating that game on a CRT is 1 frame of lag
A Wii U emulating that game AND sending it to the gamepad is 2 frames of lag
Most HDTVs are 3-4 frames of lag
2 frames is definitely noticeable when your frame of reference is no lag at all, a single frame CAN be noticed but won't "feel" off unless you are doing a direct immediate comparison