• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Wonderful 101: Kamiya "focus on fun, not length..." [Update: Inaba comments]

M

MechaX

Member
parathod said:
I like games that can be finished in a day, especially when they have high replay value which they often do compared to longer games. I wish more games were made with Platinum's philosophy.
Click to expand...

Long or short, I think this is really what more games in the action genre really have over a lot of other games.

For instance, I didn't even bat an eyelid over paying full price for Revengeance. Why? Because not only do Platinum's games have either an inherently fun gameplay system (Vanquish, Revengeance), good replay value (Bayonetta), or both, but many other games in this genre follow the same. This is different from say... Tomb Raider, where there is no real replay value and there are only so many ways you can snipe at guys behind chest-high walls.

That's why when it comes to games in this genre, I really don't have too much of a worry about the length; if the game is fun enough, I'm going to play it on higher difficulties to switch things up. I am more wary about paying full price for shorter games in other genres.
 
D

Daingurse

Member
Fimbulvetr said:
How do being subjective and having a point contradict one another?
Click to expand...

He doesn't think Bayonetta satisfies him as a spiritual successor to DMC. That's where it ends, just because a game is a spiritual successor doesn't mean it will appeal to all fans of the original franchise. I enjoy DMC 3 but Bayonetta is not nearly as appealing, the game-play is there sure but I don't like the character or the world nearly as much.

That is all subjective, there is no point Village was even attempting to make beyond his own opinion.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
Daingurse said:
He doesn't think Bayonetta satisfies him as a spiritual successor to DMC. That's where it ends, just because a game is a spiritual successor doesn't mean it will appeal to all fans of the original franchise. I enjoy DMC 3 but Bayonetta is not nearly as appealing, the game-play is there sure but I don't like the character or the world nearly as much.

That is all subjective, there is no point Village was even attempting to make beyond his own opinion.
Click to expand...

So, in other words, he had a point.
 
V

Village

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Your response to Bayonetta being a spiritual sequel to DMC is "The world is ugly, so it's not."
Click to expand...

Yes, Theme is an important to game, the theme and the way the characters come off. And bayonetta's theme isnt like dmc's theme. I would argue its worse.

Along with that, why should bayonetta be DMC anything, It should be bayonetta.Why is it trying to be some spiritual successor to a series who last non western installments had had no involvement with the people making bayonetta.

It just made the experience worse, it made want to play DMC. Or it made me go, " i wish they made a DMC5", so I could stop playing this, because it wasn't offering me anything different than DMC. And for me at least bayonetta's character design is god awful. The thing about Dante , even at his shittiest.

dante.jpg
Click to expand...

Dante's character design never so odd and kinda of over done and disorienting that I lost all interest in the character.( the gameplay in dmc2 did that) I thought Drunk Namura did her design , especially when they thought belt arms with long surgeon gloves was a good idea.

The only good thing I can say about bayonetta was the combat was sound, and it can understand why people enjoy it.The whole pummeling your opponent into nothingness, while a wonderful idea and done right, for her seemed out of character for some reason. And it felt right at home when done in MGR with a more .. ripping character. I personally enjoy the combat in DMC 3 and 4 more, especially with this thing.

Devil_Bringer.png



But By all means, bayonetta isn't bad, however it isn't and shouldn't be DMC5, DMC 5 will be DMC 5, It should be bayonetta. If Bayonneta actually gives bayonetta a character, something the DMC series didn't do until 4 with Dante, and actually becomes bayonetta not "Kinda dmc", I will enjoy it far more than the 1st one. Being in same genre does not mean that you are restricted to some type of formula.

If I play a platformer and I say this kinda of feels like successor to MB3, that to me is a bad thing. Why not offer me a unique experience in the genre you are in instead of trying to be the other guy. Especially when the the other guy, is under reasonable suspicion to still make games.

So if this midless rambling means anything, it means is bayonetta isn't dmc and I do not want it to be. However I do want it to improve itself so It become something on its own, rather than DMC5.
 
D

Daingurse

Member
Fimbulvetr said:
Yes... and?

Oh and also:



When did anybody actually argue this? That fans of the original must like spiritual successors? Because I don't see where anybody even remotely implies that.
Click to expand...

We obviously have nothing else left to discuss. I'm not going to argue something as petty as semantics and my later point is simply that, a stand-alone point.
 
C

Chû Totoro

Member
I wasn't worried before, Kamiya's tweet didn't made me think the game could be too short (and I personnaly hate to define the value of a game by its length) and Inaba comments made me think how stupid people can be in their understanding of things so a man has to explain what the definition of a great game should be -_-

I can understand the debate about graphics being very important for some but length can only be short if the game is a minimum good (bad games can be 5 hour or 300 hour long I don't care, I just stop after playing a little or don't buy them at all). I've seen too many games with boring repetitive content (achievements and trophies made this move more natural and easier imo for devs) but it's not what I want.

I just want this game to be out already :(
 
D

Daingurse

Member
Fimbulvetr said:
Semantics are extremely important when arguing on a meta level.



One that has nothing to do with the post you were criticizing. Which poses the question:

Why bring it up?
Click to expand...

Because I fucking felt like it? I agree with Village's sentiments and was putting down my thoughts. Nothing we're discussing has anything to do with the topic at hand anyway, so unless you want to discuss my thoughts on WoW101 or game length in general, I think we're done.
 
T

ThoughtsOfSpeaking

Banned
Village said:
No and No.....

See if it was DMC 5 the main character wouldn't look like a hot mess, and the world would interest me enough to play again. It can be DMC kinda edition.
Click to expand...

Art style is Subjective.

Action games live and die by their gameplay systems, which is is the heart of this discussion. Its what kamiya is talking about when he says "fun".

Combat system wise Bayonetta is a evoultion of what works best in other action games with several layers of new innovations on top.

thats what makes his games fun, thats what increases replay value and thats why he can make a 1 hour game if he wanted and it would be more fun than the typical AAA epic.

whether you dislike bayo and her world really has nothing to do with the fact that as a gameplay system it is a successor to the foundation built in DMC. Even a more fleshed out character according your own tastes would not change that at this point.
 
V

Village

Member
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
Art style is Subjective.

Action games live and die by their gameplay systems, which is is the heart of this discussion. Its why kamiya is talking about when he says "fun".

Combat system wise Bayonetta is a evoultion of what works best in other action games with several layers of new innovations on top.

thats what makes his games fun, thats what increases replay value and thats why he can make a 1 hour game if he wanted and it would be more fun than the typical AAA epic.

whether you dislike bayo and her world really has nothing to do with the fact that as a gameplay system it is a successor to the foundation built in DMC. Even a more fleshed out character according your own tastes would not change that at this point.
Click to expand...


That is subjective, because I myself and many other people I know couldn't go through GOW3 because we lothed kratos so much we just couldn't keep going. It being action game does give it a free get out story and interesting characters card. That is what cross over fighting games are for.

Also and bayonetta as an evolutionary combat system is also arguable. One my favoirte arguments.

Devil_Bringer.png


"hey godhand was good right, lets give him one of those."

" yeah it will be cool"

" we cant just port over a while game into dmc's combat system"

" just the basic concept"

And it was glorious.

Also it being dmc5 , which is it isn't, is essentially a bad thing, especially when the thing is still under reason suspicion of being an actual thing.

Why cant it be baynotta, why not offer me something different.

I like sonic because he sonic , I do not like sonic because he is " the spiritual successor to mario"
 
F

Fandangox

Member
Village said:
I like sonic because he sonic , I do not like sonic because he is " the spiritual successor to mario"
Click to expand...

Being on the same Genre is not quite the same thing as following the foundation and Gameplay aspects of a predecessor/different game.

Village said:
Also it being dmc5 , which is it isn't, is essentially a bad thing, especially when the thing is still under reason suspicion of being an actual thing.
Click to expand...

What does this even mean.
 
T

ThoughtsOfSpeaking

Banned
Village said:
That is subjective, because I myself and many other people I know couldn't go through GOW3 because we lothed kratos so much we just couldn't keep going. It being action game does give it a free get out story and interesting characters card. That is what cross over fighting games are for.

Also and bayonetta as an evolutionary combat system is also arguable. One my favoirte arguments.

Devil_Bringer.png


"hey godhand was good right, lets give him one of those."

" yeah it will be cool"

" we cant just port over a while game into dmc's combat system"

" just the basic concept"

And it was glorious.

Also it being dmc5 , which is it isn't, is essentially a bad thing, especially when the thing is still under reason suspicion of being an actual thing.

Why cant it be baynotta, why not offer me something different.

I like sonic because he sonic , I do not like sonic because he is " the spiritual successor to mario"
Click to expand...

The Devil bringer is nothing like the God hand. What are you even talking about?


Furthermore you havent played much bayonetta, have you?

clearly you havent used this much....

e794bbe5838f4.jpg



Sonic is not the spirtual successior to mario. That analogy is awful for many different reasons but the main one is Sonic was created for the sole purpose of being different from mario.
 
V

Village

Member
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
You havent played much bayonetta, have you?

clearly you havent used this much....

e794bbe5838f4.jpg



Sonic is not the spirtual successior to mario. That analogy is awful for many different reasons but the main one is Sonic was created for the sole purpose of being different from mario.
Click to expand...

I have played it, that is no where near as satisfying, .


So sonic was created to be different. So he wasn't created to be a spiritual successor to mario. So.. me saying I am not playing sonic to be a spiritual successor to mario . Thus implying that clearly sonic is different and that makes him special would be correct, yes? Which is what I think bayonetta is , and what I want bayonetta do more, different.

Do analogies not mean the same thing anymore.. or...

Fandangox said:
Being on the same Genre is not quite the same thing as following the foundation and Gameplay aspects of a predecessor/different game.



What does this even mean.
Click to expand...

It doesn't, that is what I am arguing, and it shouldn't, that is what I am arguing.
 
J

Joqu

Member
Isn't this how all of Platinum's games are? Relatively short but with a nice amount of replay value?
It's better than how say, Okami handles things. Game's long but there are some seriously boring parts there.
 
T

ThoughtsOfSpeaking

Banned
Village said:
I have played it, that is no where near as satisfying, .


So sonic was created to be different. So he wasn't created to be a spiritual successor to mario. So.. me saying I am not playing sonic to be a spiritual successor to mario . Thus implying that clearly sonic is different and that makes him special would be correct, yes? Which is what I think bayonetta is , and what I want bayonetta do more, different.

Do analogies not mean the same thing anymore.. or...



It doesn't, that is what I am arguing, and it shouldn't, that is what I am arguing.
Click to expand...


again. Subjective. My point still is there is elements of what works in damn near every action game of the past 8 years in bayonetta. Whether the functionality is a 1:1 copy is neither here or there.

Your analogy is bad because sonic never has and never will play anything like mario. Therefore for you to say you dont want Sonic to play like mario is a moot point in the first place, even ignoring the fact you clearly dont understand what a spirtual successor actually is.
 
R

Rogue_Ledr

Banned
I just hope this isn't one of those 3 hour deals.

Look, I can handle a short game, but AT LEAST givve me a game with as many gameplay hours as I have fingers on ONE HAND PLEASE?
 
V

Village

Member
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
again. Subjective. My point still is there is elements of what works in damn near every action game of the past 8 years in bayonetta. Whether the functionality is a 1:1 copy is neither here or there.

Your analogy is bad because sonic never has and never will play anything like mario. Therefore for you to say you dont want Sonic to play like mario is a moot point in the first place, even ignoring the fact you clearly dont understand what a spirtual successor actually is.
Click to expand...

Not only are you ignoring what I am actually typing , you seem to be ignoring what I mean aswell.

I am too sick for this, you know what.

Kamiya isnt magical enough to me yet to just trust him, and I will proceed with caution.

I do not think bayonnetta is and shouldn't be that much like dmc, I also do not think it is as good as dmc 3 and 4 for various reasons.

You cannot mess with that, you cannot choose what I meant by those statements, and what words mean. Those statements are what they are. Accept that I have opinions, or go.

Can we please.... PLEASE PLEASE.
get back to the thread
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
W101 is one of the few games I'm looking forward to on WiiU. That I know should be coming out this year anyway. I could have cares less if it was short so long as it was an awesome expierence. Vanquish I got for 60 and even being short the whole expierence was worth it.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Hideki Kamiya slowly working his way towards MASTER GOD RACE TROLL tier. Almost there with the likes of Kojima and Anno.
 
A

ASIS

Member
Daingurse said:
He doesn't think Bayonetta satisfies him as a spiritual successor to DMC. That's where it ends, just because a game is a spiritual successor doesn't mean it will appeal to all fans of the original franchise. I enjoy DMC 3 but Bayonetta is not nearly as appealing, the game-play is there sure but I don't like the character or the world nearly as much.

That is all subjective, there is no point Village was even attempting to make beyond his own opinion.
Click to expand...
question about the golfed, can you elaborate more on that please? I don't get it. Because if anything it means that a spiritual successor is real, but preferences of fans of the original could vary. In that sense however, it also means that Bayonetta is objectively the spiritual successor of DMC, and the fans subjective opinions don't change that fact.

Please help :S
 
F

Forsaken82

Member
Scarl said:
Isn't this how all of Platinum's games are? Relatively short but with a nice amount of replay value?
It's better than how say, Okami handles things. Game's long but there are some seriously boring parts there.
Click to expand...

I thought Bayonetta was fairly lengthy to be honest...
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
The phrase "spiritual successor" almost has nothing to do with how fans perceive the title.

A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators, shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both. In other words, it's a sequel "in spirit".
Click to expand...

(it's from TV tropes but it's a very well worded definition of how the term is most commonly used)

Saying "it's not a spiritual successor because I didn't like it" is about as dumb as saying DMC2 isn't a real sequel. Or DmC

Or MGS2/4/Rising whatever. Terms don't exist for you to arbitrarily decide their meaning based on your feelings at the time.
 
S

StreetsAhead

Member
Translation from Inaba's Twitter

""Been play checking The Wonderful 101 since morning and now I am super tired. From the time Kamiya first proposed this game to me a few years ago, I have been really, really, really wanting to get it released. I want you to look forward to it..."

朝からずーっと『The Wonderful 101』チェックプレイしてて、疲れ目が…(*_*)な感じ。このゲームは、数年前に神谷と初めて企画の話をしたその時から…どーーーーーしても、世に出したくてたまらなかったゲームなのです。楽しみにして欲しいです…。
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/PG_inaba/status/329940596863148032

EDIT: Note he was also doing a play check yesterday according to his tweets.
 
M

monome

Member
StreetsAhead said:
Translation from Inaba's Twitter

""Been play checking The Wonderful 101 since morning and now I am super tired. From the time Kamiya first proposed this game to me a few years ago, I have been really, really, really wanting to get it released. I want you to look forward to it..."



https://twitter.com/PG_inaba/status/329940596863148032

EDIT: Note he was also doing a play check yesterday according to his tweets.
Click to expand...

Next week, on eshop, for GAFGold members...
 
E

Effect

Member
StreetsAhead said:
Translation from Inaba's Twitter

""Been play checking The Wonderful 101 since morning and now I am super tired. From the time Kamiya first proposed this game to me a few years ago, I have been really, really, really wanting to get it released. I want you to look forward to it..."



https://twitter.com/PG_inaba/status/329940596863148032

EDIT: Note he was also doing a play check yesterday according to his tweets.
Click to expand...

So I guess this means that this isn't a Nintendo funded or owned IP?
 
H

hodgy100

Member
Zeer0id said:
Revengeance length outrage, round 2
Click to expand...

this is quite funny considering im verging on 30 hours play time and still feel like i can go back to it and play a bit more.

The actual length of the game is short but its replay value is through the roof.

Same with super hexagon, 6 minutes of content and I've racked up 6-7 hours playing it on steam and only finished half the content...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Stardew Valley - 1.6 Update Has Been Released
News
8
1K
GametimeUK replied
After focusing on Devil May Cry and Dragon's Dogma for 20 years, Capcom's Hideaki Itsuno says 'it would be fun to create something new'
Game Dev
18
988
deriks replied
Foamstars releases to negative player reception
Community 2 3
141
10K
ByWatterson replied
Devolver co-founder talks about competing with live service AAA titles for players' time and why indies may have a harder time on Xbox and PlayStation
Opinion Business Game Dev
10
736
Hypereides replied
[UPDATE] 3DS and Wii U software online services to end on April 8 | Pokemon Bank and Poke Transporter to remain online
News
0
574
Thick Thighs Save Lives replied
Top Bottom