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The XNA Indie Games Official Thread

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B

barkers crest

Member
As always editorials are opinion based articles that are excellent material for sparking conversations and debate.

Eric Brudvig, of IGN, has recently written an editorial proclaiming the Xbox Indie games iniative, in its current state, a failure.

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/105/1058030p1.html

While there are some good points, for obvious reasons, I highly disagree with his observations and reasonings behind the service being a failure.

It seems like the crux of this article revolves around his previous advice of opening the Xbox to the internet and comparing Indie Games to other platforms that did.

Some interesting thoughts:

While the iPhone revolutionized the mobile market and Facebook changed gaming forever, Xbox Indie Games watched from the sidelines. Social games, apps, and free ad-based endeavors made people rich and built entire multi-million dollar companies out of those same garages that Xbox Indie Game developers were working in. Why didn't this Xbox 360 service catch on the way those open platforms did?
Click to expand...

Apple opened up its SDK and encouraged people to get creative. Facebook did the same, and now the most popular games in the world can be found on that social network. The results here are astounding. People like to talk about how the Wii brought gaming to a new audience, but that influence is marginal compared to what the iPhone and Facebook have done. The Xbox 360 could have been included in that discussion, but all Microsoft allowed the community to do was to make some feature-poor games (It's difficult to even make an online leaderboard on Indie Games!) and some junky apps that shake your controller.
Click to expand...

Where will we be a year from now? Probably in the same spot. It's great that Microsoft offers the tools and framework for getting any game published on Xbox 360. But unless Microsoft decides to let developers get creative and make use of this thing called the Internet, Indie Games will always sit on the sidelines.
Click to expand...

Though I'm ready to call it a failure, it's not too late to right the ship. Sony and Nintendo are light years behind so Microsoft still can claim console dominance, for what it is worth. Perhaps this will be the year that Microsoft recognizes why Facebook and the iPhone are grabbing all of the headlines.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, much of what is presented is based purely on speculation, anecdotal evidence, or just a plain small sample size ( IE. asking 1 development group why they are abandoning indie games and not asking a single other developer why they are enjoying the service/profiting from it ).

I encourage all to read this article and post your thoughts on the current state of Indie Games on the Xbox.

Personally, I think Xbox Indie games is in a great state and have no desire for facebook type games on the service, and I think facebook game fans wouldn't have played the games on the service anyways because they already have laptops for that.

Also, I think it should be said that a straight comparison of Indie Games to the Apple App store is absurd for many reasons I don't feel like typing about right now.
 
A

Anso

Member
Bah, they didn't mention Leave Home's 8/10 in Edge, the Arkedo series or Microsoft's promotion of Avatar Golf either... Haters I say, HATERS!

Seriously though, we really NEED to spread the word that there's good to be had on XBLIG. Twitter, Facebook, blogs, forums, call your friends and scream it loud. Getting more people enlightened about what's good and available is the only way to make XBLIG a better service.
 
T

toythatkills

Member
Tobe's Vertical Adventure is out. It looks freakin' awesome, looks like my perfect kind of game, but looks can be deceiving. It controls really horribly, and is kinda buggy too :(

I was really looking forward to that one.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Anso said:
Yes. It's a shorter timer because the game is only a few minutes long. Well worth a purchase though, the best game on the system at the moment in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Glad to know I wasn't just dying without being aware of what was happening. Strange that they would kill you intentionally in the demo, rather than just letting the demo end. It leaves the player with a pretty frustrating & sour taste in their mouth. Not sure I'll buy it because I'm not the biggest shmup'er but I can see it's easily worth the three bucks to anyone who digs a good score attack game.
 
A

Anso

Member
RadarScope1 said:
Thanks. Glad to know I wasn't just dying without being aware of what was happening. Strange that they would kill you intentionally in the demo, rather than just letting the demo end. It leaves the player with a pretty frustrating & sour taste in their mouth. Not sure I'll buy it because I'm not the biggest shmup'er but I can see it's easily worth the three bucks to anyone who digs a good score attack game.
Click to expand...

Leave Home is, hands down, my absolute favorite game on XBLIG and one of my favorite games on 360 period. Sure, I'm a shmup fan but it should be mandatory for everyone with a 360 anyway.
 
L

lord pie

Member
barkers crest said:
Eric Brudvig, of IGN, has recently written an editorial proclaiming the Xbox Indie games iniative, in its current state, a failure.
Click to expand...

I feel XNA has been a success. It has struggled, yes, but it is a success.
Comparing it to the App Store is utterly meaningless. App Store is a freak/bubble/gold rush. Nothing compares to it. Arcade is a far better comparison.

To sum up my feelings:

Indie Games are more likely to be high risk, experimental games.
Whereas many Arcade games have become publisher driven low risk games. High on production values, but ultimately not worth your time.

There are far more games I simply enjoy. They aren't artificially lengthened, padded out or over engineered. After playing a game like Run Away I feel better. A game like that would never exist in Arcade.
 
F

fernoca

Member
Just got Tobe's Vertical Adventure. (240 MS Points)
Love the look..the art..the music. Plays and looks like a "retro game"..really well done overall. Basically you control Tobe around, collecting treasures all over the screen..the controls are a bit tricky at first, but overall it 's a great game.

2zi34ap.png


Video
 
W

Warm Machine

Member
I like how I guessed it was HalfBrick on the IGN piece before I even read it. Guys, I actually liked HalfBrick Rocket Racing but did it ever look and feel like a cheap game. Very little care seemed to have gone into the visual style, and there were far too many people in the credits to have warranted the investment in the game anyway.
 
M

mollipen

Member
fernoca said:
Just got Tobe's Vertical Adventure. (240 MS Points)
Love the look..the art..the music. Plays and looks like a "retro game"..really well done overall. Basically you control Tobe around, collecting treasures all over the screen..the controls are a bit tricky at first, but overall it 's a great game.
Click to expand...

I just got done playing this demo, and I just have to say... the controls aren't tricky, they're utter shit, and that's because you have to control Tobe with the d-pad, and the d-pad only. I'd love to place the blame for such an awesome game being ruined on Microsoft's craptacular d-pad, but blame also goes to the developer of Tobe for making the ridiculous decision to not allow for analog stick control.
 
B

Brannon

Member
Wow Tobe looks great! I might buy this one!

..

..




















.......

D-pad only?

D-PAD ONLY?

You goddamned flaccid cunts. For years now... for FUCKING YEARS we have bashed, complained about, attacked and crucified the shit stain that is the 360 D-pad, and you do THIS?

Go to hell.








Seriously, what the fuck devs? What the fuck?
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
shidoshi said:
I just got done playing this demo, and I just have to say... the controls aren't tricky, they're utter shit, and that's because you have to control Tobe with the d-pad, and the d-pad only. I'd love to place the blame for such an awesome game being ruined on Microsoft's craptacular d-pad, but blame also goes to the developer of Tobe for making the ridiculous decision to not allow for analog stick control.
Click to expand...

.

I would have bought it if it didn't use the d-pad, I bet that decision loses them 50% of their potential sales.
 
Dr. Zoidberg

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
shidoshi said:
I just got done playing this demo, and I just have to say... the controls aren't tricky, they're utter shit, and that's because you have to control Tobe with the d-pad, and the d-pad only.
Click to expand...

To be fair. I have no problem with my d-pad in most games and this game still controls like crap. There is more to the poor controls than just the usual d-pad griping. They simply aren't done very well and the timing for jumps and things feels off.
 
T

toythatkills

Member
TiME K looks interesting, very Braid-y.

Trailer here, 400 points.

And yeah, Tobe is near unplayable. I hope they fix it, I really want to like it and it does everything else right.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
I find that almost all Indie game platformers control pretty strangely. It's like someone turned on a slight moon jump and the character feels disconnected from its environment.

I don't know if this is a limitation of XNA programming in general, or the developers themselves.
 
Dr. Zoidberg

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Speevy said:
I find that almost all Indie game platformers control pretty strangely. It's like someone turned on a slight moon jump and the character feels disconnected from its environment.

I don't know if this is a limitation of XNA programming in general, or the developers themselves.
Click to expand...

I think it's the developers. Getting the right feel for your jumping mechanics is not easy, even for the pros. Look at Little Big Planet. Yeah it works well enough but most people still complained about it with the same reasons you just cited. Floaty, moon-like jumping. Still a great game, I'm just making a point.
 
K

kanugo

Member
ASCII Dungeon Crawler Made For Xbox 360

UberGeekGames made an Xbox 360 game that suits their name. Dungeon Adventure is a downloadable roguelike with ASCII art.

You don’t have to hit bats and search for loot as an “@.” Dungeon Adventure has tiles too.
Click to expand...

image_thumb48.png


image_thumb49.png


You can get Dungeon Adventure from the indies game section on the Xbox Live Marketplace. It costs 240 Microsoft Points ($3) and is HDTV compatible.
Click to expand...

Siliconera
 
B

Brannon

Member
Still peeved. I understand where they're coming from, with the focus on retro design (see homepage for Sega Genesis box art), and that the D-pad was the way to go back then, but it doesn't work here. On PS3, yes. On Wii, hell yes. On 360?

No. Never. Not. Ever.

Analog stick has to be an option to use. This is not an opinion; it's a damn fact.The D-pad is borderline useless for main gaming. That's why it's relegated to the bitch task of picking options or ordering your squad to advance forward or rally and shit like that.

And if they have a problem with the analog stick for some reason, they can certainly gain inspiration from Spelunky on PC, which uses it rather well, and will be coming to the 360 soon.

And also while they're at it, they can tweak some of the other controls, too. Once again, Spelunky, because the more I think about it, the more it resembles a bootleg Spelunky. Not a bad thing at all, save the control choice.
 
N

Noogy

Member
Brannon said:
Analog stick has to be an option to use. This is not an opinion; it's a damn fact.
Click to expand...
Trust me, this came up in peer review, and ultimately wasn't a decision to make the game feel retro (afaik). Analog controls 'were' in for a while, so I wouldn't rule that out in a future patch *nudges developers*.

And I agree about the Dpad thing. I play 'everything' with the thumbstick nowadays.
 
L

lord pie

Member
Speevy said:
I find that almost all Indie game platformers control pretty strangely. It's like someone turned on a slight moon jump and the character feels disconnected from its environment.

I don't know if this is a limitation of XNA programming in general, or the developers themselves.
Click to expand...

It's certainly not a limitation of XNA. XNA is exceptionally flexible and powerful (all things considered).

It comes down to the subtle ways a game interprets your actions. A lesser part of it is also how the camera moves.

Whenever you develop a game on your own, it's very easy to become accustomed to it. The controls in Tobe probably make complete sense to the guy that made the game :)
One of the hardest parts of game development is being able to say 'yes, it's not good enough'. Playtesting will raise these issues, but if you have invested so much time in a game it can be very difficult to see it's faults.

Basically, the game has to work with a new players intuition - which is impossible for a developer to test themselves. Sometimes it takes watching a playtester throw the controller at the ground for the reality to really sink in :D

First impressions are absolutely critical, especially for indie games.

Valve have some good articles on playtesting, such as this one.
While reading it you can easily see where a lot of indies go wrong.
 
B

Brannon

Member
Quixzlizx said:
Has anyone played Dungeon Adventure yet?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's actually pretty decent. A bit on the easy side, but I didn't get past the trial time limit to see if it gets more difficult. I'll play it a couple more times before I see if I want to buy it; Dungeon Craw Stone Soup takes up enough of my time as it is.
 
A

Alphahawk

Member
So yesterday I noticed that at this point their are 4 FMV games up staring the girl from Don't B Nervous Talking to Girls. I'm pretty sure Silver Dollar Games are stuck in some kinda time warp and are actually developing 3DO games in some alternate universe. :lol
 
D

Diablohead

Member
fernoca said:
Just got Tobe's Vertical Adventure. (240 MS Points)
Love the look..the art..the music. Plays and looks like a "retro game"..really well done overall. Basically you control Tobe around, collecting treasures all over the screen..the controls are a bit tricky at first, but overall it 's a great game.

2zi34ap.png


Video
Click to expand...
Played the trial last night, fun game but sometimes the way the engine works can get in the way, you want to wall kick but it doesn't respond, you want to run up a wall but it won't yet you can do facing the other way, it just feels a bit broken.

But it was fun.
 
P

Psymon_Stark

Member
I recently bought Pixel (great game btw) and now I have 360 points left that I want to invest in some others Indie Games. Any suggestions?
I was thinking about getting Miner Dig Deep, since is only 80 ponts, and another (or maybe two) title(s) from these, which seemed interesting:
Swap
Johnny Platform's Biscuit Romp
Kaiten Patissier
Ninja Bros
Green Island
The Impossible Game
コロンで Jump

Any suggestion?
 
N

N4Us

Member
Alphahawk said:
So yesterday I noticed that at this point their are 4 FMV games up staring the girl from Don't B Nervous Talking to Girls. I'm pretty sure Silver Dollar Games are stuck in some kinda time warp and are actually developing 3DO games in some alternate universe. :lol
Click to expand...

Double Switch port, plz.
 
C

CrunchinJelly

formerly cjelly
Rlan said:
Pixel Boarder is out.

http://download.xbox.com/content/xna/assets/585503FF_World/screen2_Web.jpg[img]

[img]http://download.xbox.com/content/xna/assets/585503FF_World/screen1_Web.jpg[img]

[url]http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d802585503ff/?p=1&partner=RSS&of=0&bt=0&sb=1#offers[/url]

240MSP / $3USD.[/QUOTE]
I want to love this game but the controls flat out suck.

No buy.
Click to expand...
 
C

CrunchinJelly

formerly cjelly
Kafel said:
Not at all, the game is difficult, that's all.

You have to be precise with the sticks. The music is awesome by the way.
Click to expand...
An Indie Game gets an 8 minute demo.

Pro-tip: Don't design your game with a control scheme that takes 8 hours to get used to.
 
K

Kafel

Banned
cjelly said:
An Indie Game gets an 8 minute demo.

Pro-tip: Don't design your game with a control scheme that takes 8 hours to get used to.
Click to expand...

You get a taste of it. That's what demos are for.

You know you'll have fun with this game more than 10 minutes because of the replay value.
 
J

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
shidoshi said:
I just got done playing this demo, and I just have to say... the controls aren't tricky, they're utter shit, and that's because you have to control Tobe with the d-pad, and the d-pad only. I'd love to place the blame for such an awesome game being ruined on Microsoft's craptacular d-pad, but blame also goes to the developer of Tobe for making the ridiculous decision to not allow for analog stick control.
Click to expand...
Apparently they're going to release a patch for this:
rayteoactive said:
Hi guys, thanks for the feedback. We're looking to release a patch for the game sometime soon :)
Click to expand...
It's a comment in the video Fernoca posted earlier, made by the maker of this game.
 
D

Dr Zhivago

Member
Time K is really close to being a decent Braid-alike. Unfortunately, it's just not much fun - you can run out of time & die in the tutorial level, for instance. It just needed a bit of playtesting, because everything else about it is nicely done.
 
B

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
Time K is really close to being a decent Braid-alike. Unfortunately, it's just not much fun - you can run out of time & die in the tutorial level, for instance. It just needed a bit of playtesting, because everything else about it is nicely done.
Click to expand...

Do you ever get any weapons? The whole "touch any other living creature once and die instantly" stuff is what really sucked the fun out for me, especially considering when you die you have to wait for it to go back to the map and then you have to reselect the level with the stupid pointer thing...
 
R

Rlan

Member
Yeah, Time K is great in theory, but it's fucking brutally difficult for no good reason.

The time mechanics aren't well thought out either - there's a platform you need to lower, and then use reverse time to bring it back up - but if you want too long you're fucked since you can only rewind for a limited time.
 
F

Feep

Banned
Adding support for the analog stick should take around nine lines of code and eleven minutes...if they were drunk. XNA's controller access is incredibly simple.

I wish I hadn't chosen such an ambitious game. (sigh)
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Arkedo Jump & Pixel and Johnny Platform show it's not a function of XNA. Some devs have gotten it right. Too bad about this Tobe game, because I really want to buy more platformers on XBLIG.
 
R

riceandbeans

Member
Just tried out Time K's demo and was left really disappointed because it has interesting time manipulating platforming but it's mixed with some really annoying game design. The small time limit, annoying one-hit death enemies, and iffy platform jumps are just too much of a pain in the ass.

There's even a time limit in the tutorial so you have to rush trying to get a hang of the gameplay. It sucks too because the graphics are great and I'm pretty sure the level design would be a lot of fun if they actually gave you some time to breathe and think for a bit.
 
D

DodgerSan

Member
There's a new indie game called Abaddon up. Has live co-op (a first for xna games?) and a lot of decent ideas in it. The hardcore shmup crowd will probably enjoy it. For me though it's ruined by the lack of learning curve - it's just brutally difficult straight off the bat. This is a shame as there's a lot of good stuff in there that I'll never get to see. If it can be updated to ramp up the difficulty more gradually it could be really good.

Main reason for posting about it though is that I know the guy who did the music. I know he'd appreciate honest criticism, so see what you think.
 
A

Alphahawk

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
Time K is really close to being a decent Braid-alike. Unfortunately, it's just not much fun.
Click to expand...

So it's like Braid in more ways than one...

Also my experience with Pixel Boarder is as follows

Enters Tutorial:
Tutorial: Ok this is how you do a "Sweet Jump:"
Me: (Does exactly what the tutorial was saying: Ok this could be kinda cool
Tutorial: Ok This is how you perform a flip
Me: (Does exactly what the tutorial says performs "Sweet Jump") The fuck?
Tutorial: Close let's try it again
Me (does same thing get's same result) (Deletes game)
 
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