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[Aklamarth]

What's interesting to me is I know these large publishers are using focus tests with the lowest common denominator to create their games.

Why can't they satisfy people on both levels?

Create a great game, then use various modern gaming tropes to dumb it down for your typical person.

• quest markers
• forgiving AI
• constant pop-ups and reminders
• regenerating health
• path on the floor to show objectives
• highlighted objects
• anchor points for good rope arrow placement

Why can't games start with an interesting basis, then allow players to turn on/off options to cater to the lowest common denominator?

Instead of just giving up entirely and creating an, overall, mediocre game to encompass the entire audience?

It's not that simple. If you do that you're basically creating a 1.5 game. And all that extra crap have to be QAed and bug fixed and so on. A lot of extra work for a questionable result.

The actual problem is making a game with a team of +150 people. Putting things in a different perspective....a lowest common denominator (mostly) ensures that those people still have jobs in the future. A high risk project made by that many people is simply a risk most companies aren't willing to take.

 

[SlasherJPC]

John from RPS played it on the highest difficulty, which, if I'm understanding correctly, dramatically changes how you must play the game and probably makes it a much longer experience.

True, but coming from the original difficulty, this is what to expect. I would like to play it on harder levels to see how it alters my already fairly enjoyable view on it. If there wasn't so many games being release right now, I'd be replaying it honestly.

 

[-tetsuo-]

I miss him already (in a way).

did he get permed?

 

[Adry9]

I played for a while and I'm enjoying it so far. I'd like to see what scores did BF4 and COD:Ghosts receive from all the media who gave this game a 5 or a 6.

 

[MormaPope]

Forza does this, and so does Splinter Cell Blacklist, through even Blacklist had to meet its quota of forced shooter action segments (even after nixing in the calling down of airstrikes and interactive torture bits).

That formula is something I've wished for a while now. Build the hardcore game that the fanbase wants, and then add assists. Enable those assists by default since us hardcore players are more than happy to go into the options and disable them.

My guess is that it just honestly harder to design a good hardcore game than it is to make a linear hand-holy one. Seems like the hand-holy one would be more expensive though since it has to focus on bombast and cinematics for its kicks rather than pure mechanics.

Forza does this the best. I used to have all the vehicle assists on, automatic transmission/shifting, no racing line, rewinds on. The more I played less vehicle assists were on, I was using manual shifting, rewinds on. After playing 60+ hours of Forza 4 all vehicle assists are off, manual with clutch shifting, rewinds on.

The racing line is extremely useful for online endurance racing, racing for 45 minutes on one track requires a lot of focus.

 

[salah_erosennin]

Maybe I wanted more from Thief! It doesn't seems like a mouth watering game for next-gen consoles.

 

[EatChildren]

John from RPS played it on the highest difficulty, which, if I'm understanding correctly, dramatically changes how you must play the game and probably makes it a much longer experience.

Took me about 15 hours on Master custom difficulty, focus set off. Did about half the side quests.

 

[sp3000]

Took me about 15 hours on Master custom difficulty, focus set off. Did about half the side quests.

How does the game compare to Thief 3? I think I might be the only one who enjoyed it more than the previous games

 

[MormaPope]

I could not stand Blacklist. It was a worse overall game than Double Agent or Conviction. Level design was atrocious.

Disagree completely. Played through the game twice, once on realistic, once on professional. Blacklist allows for extremely quick non lethal progression, panther style allows for even quicker mission progression. I'm tired of "wait in the dark, slow walk by" stealth, one of the reasons why I love the MGS series is how much faster it is compared to older Splinter Cell games.

 

[Grief.exe]

Honestly? I think they're trying to get ahead of the community response on this one, with how tepid basically every Thief fan on earth was about this one. Which of course misses the point, that it could be a very competent stealth game even if Thief fans aren't impressed.

Being half as good as Thief is still a lot better than most major releases in a given year.

We saw the reverse of this sort of thing when the Souls games blew up. Dark Souls 2 is going to be all 9/10, 5/5s, while Gamespot was a total outlier when they chose Demon's as their GOTY.

Hats off to them for that.

 

[EatChildren]

How does the game compare to Thief 3? I think I might be the only one who enjoyed it more than the previous games

More similar to Deadly Shadows than The Metal Age, but still not as impressive in scope of level design, agency, and challenge.

It's a good stealth game, but far from a brilliant one IMO.

 

[MormaPope]

I played for a while and I'm enjoying it so far. I'd like to see what scores did BF4 and COD:Ghosts receive from all the media who gave this game a 5 or a 6.

These comparisons are really sad.

 

[EatChildren]

I played for a while and I'm enjoying it so far. I'd like to see what scores did BF4 and COD:Ghosts receive from all the media who gave this game a 5 or a 6.

I didn't review Ghosts, but I gave Battlefield 4 the same score as I gave Thief: 3/5.

 

[Grief.exe]

I played for a while and I'm enjoying it so far. I'd like to see what scores did BF4 and COD:Ghosts receive from all the media who gave this game a 5 or a 6.

This seems more like it would directly compare to Bioshock Infinite to me.

It was the same year as Dragon Age, Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2, no less. These guys aren't all fools I guess.

I'm even more impressed.

 

[Adry9]

These comparisons are really sad.

Explain.

I didn't review Ghosts, but I gave Battlefield 4 the same score as I gave Thief: 3/5.

Seems fair to me then.

I just want to see media setting the bar equally high for every game.

 

[Eusis]

Ouch. Was this expected?

Kind of I guess. If the reactions on forums to the previews was going to indicate the final product then a lot of 6-8 reviews makes sense: something that's disappointing given the series pedigree but not genuinely terrible and many can very well still enjoy with reasonable expectations in mind (and preferably when played on the cheap.)

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

Completely saw this coming. Can't wait to actually play it though.

 

[stufte]

This is about what I expected. Can't wait to play it!

 

[MormaPope]

Explain.
.

What you posted is incredibly defensive and a really weak argument in general.

"So a game comes out that I like but critics rated it modestly, I wonder what score they gave a game I don't like? OH, THEY GAVE THAT GAME A HIGHER SCORE?! BLEH, utterly wrong and untrustworthy critics."

What point does that raise? I love Nier and Deadly Premonition, those games were not reviewed favorably. Modern Warfare 3 getting higher scores than those games doesn't phase me because my tastes and my preferences are tied to the experiences those games bring, not the scores they did or didn't get.

It isn't that challenging to either value or dismiss criticism. BF4 and CoD Ghosts getting higher scores doesn't really mean anything.

 

[TGO]

Have the steelbook pre-ordered.........not sure if I should keep it

 

[BloodMoney]

mmmmmm. MedSci...... tasty

 

[Baleoce]

Just finished watching TB's look at the PC version. It looks great. I'm really pleased with how Square Enix / Eidos are treating their PC versions of late. I'm slightly hesitant to even use the term port tbh. This is quite a fleshed out optimization. I love what they've done with the difficulty curve customization. The apparent lack of variation in the enemies for the first 6 hours or so is somewhat disappointing though.

 

[Syphon Filter]

lol

 

[Neuromancer]

did he get permed?

Not sure.

 

[-tetsuo-]

It was the same year as Dragon Age, Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2, no less. These guys aren't all fools I guess.

Don't forget Arkham Asylum

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Seems like its a 7.5-ish game.

I can live with that.

I never expected a game as good as the old ones.

 

[CloakedPuppet]

Meh - still very much looking foward to playing this. I'm not paying full price for it anyway and I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

 

[allgamespc]

while its not a very good game, i am enjoying it for what it is. a stealth game. its actually not bad and it encourages you to play stealth and not go guns out like most games these days. that alone, makes the game worth it for at least one playthough

 

[Adry9]

What you posted is incredibly defensive and a really weak argument in general.

"So a game comes out that I like but critics rated it modestly, I wonder what score they gave a game I don't like? OH, THEY GAVE THAT GAME A HIGHER SCORE?! BLEH, utterly wrong and untrustworthy critics."

What point does that raise? I love Nier and Deadly Premonition, those games were not reviewed favorably. Modern Warfare 3 getting higher scores than those games doesn't phase me because my tastes and my preferences are tied to the experiences those games bring, not the scores they did or didn't get.

It isn't that challenging to either value or dismiss criticism. BF4 and CoD Ghosts getting higher scores doesn't really mean anything.

I see what you mean, but that's not the case. Let me explain:

For example, I didn't like Dishonored (Yes, kill me now XD) and it got praised. Now Thief comes out, a game that it's pretty much the same genre, and I'm enjoying it more but it's getting lower scores than Dishonored. Am I getting mad about it? No. Why? Because I read a lot of reviews and opinions about Dishonored and I can see why it got great scores, it just wasn't the game for me. But Ghosts and BF4? Sorry but no, I see absolutely no reason for a game like that getting a 9 and Thief a 5. And in case you are thinking I hate FPS's, I loved COD4 as well as BF3.

And scores mean something, otherwise a thread like this wouldn't exist.

 

[MormaPope]

You're overthinking it. It's not about GAME I LIKE/DON'T LIKE, it's just odd how the same complaints for Thief easily apply to most of the games that get 10/10 OMG GOTY reviews.

Every game has flaws, and most game flaws are spread throughout the majority of all games. Thief's merits don't outweigh the flaws that heavily. Of course someone may thing differently, but this situation isn't odd at all. This same argument was probably used for the recent game Lightning Returns.

 

[Eusis]

You're overthinking it. It's not about GAME I LIKE/DON'T LIKE, it's just odd how the same complaints for Thief easily apply to most of the games that get 10/10 OMG GOTY reviews.

I need to look into the reviews more, but I wonder how much of that is due to expectations, or how much of that is due to whatever it's doing not really being a good fit for the formula? If it's fairly linear or bogged down with cinematics that may not work as well with a game that's SUPPOSED to be about sneaking around and stealing things as it would be for a somewhat mindless shooter like Call of Duty (and even that's facing backlash now; that specific execution was novel 6 years ago but not so much now!)

 

[Kitty]

Reviews made by BF and CoD fanboys shouldn't be read at all.
"No good combat, me no like, me give 2/100 score".

 

[Adry9]

I have a low spec computer, someone can tell me if I can run this? I played Dishonored on low pretty wall, I also recently played Enslaved (on low).

I don't know the requirements for Dishonored or Enslaved but the game is well optimized.

 

[NullPointer]

Still, old-school Tomb Raider fans probably wish the reboot was given the same keen critical eye from EGM that Thief just got reamed by.

That EGM review seemed to put the majority of the focus on technical issues and shoddy implementations.

Tomb Raider may have been a shitty Tomb Raider game but it was still a very competent game in its own right. It ran well, looked flat out gorgeous, felt wonderful to control, and had some quality pacing. It did what it set out to do pretty damn well.

As far as that EGM review goes, nothing this Thief title attempts really works, even on its own terms.

 

[jimi_dini]

More similar to Deadly Shadows than The Metal Age, but still not as impressive in scope of level design, agency, and challenge.

It's a good stealth game, but far from a brilliant one IMO.

Better or worse than Dishonored?

I guess it's definitely worse than Deus Ex:HR according to the video review.

 

[MormaPope]

I see what you mean, but that's not the case. Let me explain:

For example, I didn't like Dishonored (Yes, kill me now XD) and it got praised. Now Thief comes out, a game that it's pretty much the same genre, and I'm enjoying it more but it's getting lower scores than Dishonored. Am I getting mad about it? No. Why? Because I read a lot of reviews and opinions about Dishonored and I can see why it got great scores, it just wasn't the game for me. But Ghosts and BF4? Sorry but no, I see absolutely no reason for a game like that getting a 9 and Thief a 5. And in case you are thinking I hate FPS's, I loved COD4 as well as BF3.

And scores mean something, otherwise a thread like this wouldn't exist.

I'm not debating if scores mean something, I'm debating that your line of thinking is flawed when it comes to criticism. Thief was reviewed as a AAA stealth title, critics weren't floored by it. 7/10's are not that bad, and your constant comparisons to Ghosts and Battlefield 4 make little sense.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/call-of-duty-ghosts 73/100

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/battlefield-4 78/100

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/thief 69/100

Thief amounts to the same "objective" quality Ghosts has and isn't far behind from BF4.

 

[EatChildren]

Better or worse than Dishonored?

Dishonored was one of my favourite games of that year, so no, I don't think Thief is a better game.

 

[Riposte]

Dishonored was one of my favourite games of that year, so no, I don't think Thief is a better game.

Didn't you say one of your complaints was how the economy of the game was thrown out of whack because of OP tools?

 

[Moff]

the circle is complete.
dishonored was but the learner, now it is the master

 

[Adry9]

I'm not debating if scores mean something, I'm debating that your line of thinking is flawed when it comes to criticism. Thief was reviewed as a AAA stealth title, critics weren't floored by it. 7/10's are not that bad, and your constant comparisons to Ghosts and Battlefield 4 make little sense.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/call-of-duty-ghosts 73/100

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/battlefield-4 78/100

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/thief 69/100

Thief amounts to the same "objective" quality Ghosts has and isn't far behind from BF4.

I chose BF4 and Ghosts because those were the first titles that came to my mind that were, in my opinion, overrated by some publications. Sorry but I explained everything in my previous post, I don't have time to go over it again.

 

[EatChildren]

Didn't you say one of your complaints was how the economy of the game was thrown out of whack because of OP tools?

Yes. And despite overpowering, I still had significantly more fun with Dishonored, balancing overpowered killing to resource limited non-lethal stealth, over Thief. Additionally, Dishonored's level design (until some of the later stages) does a far greater job of encompassing your abilities and equipment and offering a greater scope of play.

You're trying to peg me on something I liked/disliked about one game then critiqued the other, and it's not working. I'm not judging Thief to be Dishonored (nowhere is this mentioned in my review), and I didn't judge Dishonored to be Thief. I already said in another thread (or maybe here) that I don't feel the comparison is all that valid since each game follows a different philosophy of design and player empowerment. Thief is not Dishonored. Dishonored is not Thief. What one game offers is not something you'll get out of the other just because they both embrace "stealth". They've entirely different pacing and gameplay systems, as well as level design.

 

[sclpls]

Comparing this new Thief game to Dishonored, while understandable, is off-base. Dishonored follows in Thief's footsteps by continuing in the immersive sims tradition. The game design approach for this new game was to basically jettison all those principles. The new Thief may or may not be a decent stealth game, but for people that fell in love with the game design principles that guided the Thief series, this game has nothing to offer.

 

[Grief.exe]

I chose BF4 and Ghosts because those were the first titles that came to my mind that were, in my opinion, overrated by some publications. Sorry but I explained everything in my previous post, I don't have time to go over it again.

Bioshock Infinite would be a more apt comparison than those multiplayer focused titles.

 

[codhand]

.

I know you beat it on Master, Focus-less, but do you see yourself replaying any stages, for higher score, or just to mess around?

 

[jimi_dini]

Yes. And despite overpowering, I still had significantly more fun with Dishonored, balancing overpowered killing to resource limited non-lethal stealth, over Thief. Additionally, Dishonored's level design (until some of the later stages) does a far greater job of encompassing your abilities and equipment and offering a greater scope of play.

I played Dishonored using 100% stealth and no kills. If you remove any action oriented approach from Dishonored, would that change the result? Would it still be Dishonored >> Thief?

 

[Lotto]

Looks about what I expected. I'll pick it up down the line eventually.

 

[Moff]

I only played the first levels of thief, but I'd say dishonored is the smoother, more polished and bigger game. especially the latter is quite important, big levels are a must in those games.

and I'd say they're not that different, dishonored, while primarily being a deus ex kind of genre mix, that offers many approaches, felt a lot like the original thief games.

 

[EatChildren]

I know you beat it on Master, Focus-less, but do you see yourself replaying any stages, for higher score, or just to mess around?

I think I'll play through it again at some point with even more difficulty restrictions while trying to complete every collection, just to see what it's like.

I played Dishonored using 100% stealth and no kills. If you remove any action oriented approach from Dishonored, would that change the result? Would it still be Dishonored >> Thief?

My first run of Dishonored was exactly that too: stealth, non-lethal. I had more fun with Dishonored, but a lot of that probably comes down to the vertical play, and core focus of the game: assassinations, and finding workarounds. Dishonored gave you objectives, sometimes secondary, and playing non-lethal usually meant more than "don't kill the guards". At it's best Dishonored offered a crazy awesome diversity in objective solutions.

I still don't think the comparison is quite apt because you still get something different out of each game, and the game systems even while sneaking are different. From memory conscious guards in Dishonored could wake up knocked out guards, whereas in Thief a blackjacked guard is knocked out forever. Little things like this, as well as Dishonored's blinking versus Thief's shadow stealth, change the pacing and feel of the game to something more subjective than objective, and in that case I subjectively enjoyed Dishonored more.

I did say in my review Thief is an above average game with serviceable stealth systems that don't regress to dumb combat pulp, but always keep "sneaking" as the main objective. I'm just disappointed with the overall scope of the level design and game systems, and the challenge these two together combined, as well as some of the rougher points of Thief like the dumb story and the impact that has on the way some levels (or parts of levels) have been designed (a criticism that can be levied at Dishonored and especially Deus Ex: Human Revolution too).

 

[Deadbeat]

I only played the first levels of thief, but I'd say dishonored is the smoother, more polished and bigger game. especially the latter is quite important, big levels are a must in those games.

and I'd say they're not that different, dishonored, while primarily being a deus ex kind of genre mix, that offers many approaches, felt a lot like the original thief games.

Thats because the people that made Dishonored made Dark Messiah. You know, the game that allowed you to use a rope arrows anywhere you want to.

 

[human onion]

Good or bad, these reviews aren't really doing much for me. I'm just accepting that this isn't going to be the game I wanted it to be. Maybe at a really low price drop.