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[Amir0x]

Question: When did an objective "better" or "evolution" ever become a goal and/or a necessity for the medium and industry at large?

Never. Necessity isn't what is being discussed here, though. At least, I don't see it being discussed. We're talking about evolution in games, and how that applies to making games enjoyable for me (or etiolate or you or whoever) personally.

And to say that motion control has demonstrated nothing at all, in terms of 'new ideas', clearly the market seems to disagree.

I thought we already established that I don't care what the fuck the market thinks. That's the whole point of that statement of mine. Why would I care if the market thinks Britney Spear's latest album is the greatest thing ever? If Bruce Springsteen's "Magic" sells less, am I going to say "well the market has spoken!" Of course fucking not, because that'd be idiotic.

I don't care if your family buys the games, I don't care if my family buys the games, I don't care if etiolate's family buys the games and you all decide to go over each others houses and masturbate by a fire place while your uncle plays a videogame for the first time in his life. I only care if the product being sold is not a piece of shit. That is the only thing Wii has to demonstrate for me, to be "better" than what has come before it has to show that its games are in some way more fun to play than its predecessors (Gamecube, PS2, Xbox). If it can't do that yet, then it still has a lot to go.

 

[schuelma]

I was somewhat in agreement with what you said, until I read this:



And this is the exact elitist argument that etiolate was mentioning. First of all, some of the greatest games of all time are simple, high-score affairs where there is NO story and JUST enjoyment. And to say that motion control has demonstrated nothing at all, in terms of 'new ideas', clearly the market seems to disagree.

It seems like this whole argument in large part depends on what you think about Wii Sports. If you think its "teh tech demo" then you're probably not very positive about the Wii at all.

 

[Tristam]

I also don't give a shit if the market disagrees, but Metroid Prime 3 disagrees. The controls were fucking awesome.

 

[Amir0x]

Are you sure Tristam because I think the market decided Halo 3 was a better FPS

 

[Amir0x]

Are you sure Tristam because I think the market decided that Red Steel was a better FPS

 

[Odrion]

Why isn't Microsoft ripping off the Wiimote.

Or Sony.

C'MON YOU IDIOTS. YOU RIPPED OFF EVERY OTHER GODDAMN WORTHLESS FEATURE NINTENDO HAD BUT YOU CAN'T COPY THE BEST CONTROLLER EVER?

What, you afraid of making fat Nintendo fanboys cry? Or the patents you guys managed to dance around all these years? Pussies!

 

[QuickKick89]

Damn. Amirox is out for BLOOD.

 

[Amir0x]

Sony tried to rip it off they're just so incompetent this generation that they can't even get the ripping right.

 

[etiolate]

The easiest way to answer your rant is to say there isn't any difference in the proposed "laziness" of those who make Wii games, and those who make 360/PS3 games - only in one spectrum the "same old ideas" have Wiimote functionality tacked on, and in the other the "same old ideas" have better visuals, physics, A.I., scale, and more tacked on.

You can get new ideas on any platform, or evolution of old ideas on any platform. Some suck, some are good. 360 and PS3 has some, Wii has some. In the end, though, what I care about is how those games are: were they fun, and are they a meaningful leap over what I played before? In the case of Wii, the answer is almost always "no". Motion controls have thus far proven to be a tame, unjustified jump at best ...some superior things, mostly inferior things. In the case of 360, it is almost always "yes"... even if the advancement is just relating to visuals.

Evolution in games, distilled to its very core, is simply a question: "Are the games better?" If they are, there you go. You don't need any of this other bullshit being tossed around. You don't even need people, since some of the best games and best ideas are sold to nobody at all. The people on the creative end, those making the games, they'll be everywhere. They're not only going to be on Wii, they're not even mostly going to be on Wii. They'll go where they think their games are best suited, ultimately, and if that relies on motion control so be it. Maybe those ideas will actually be worth half a damn. But so far, the evolution I've seen - where it counts, that is to say where the best and most fun games are - is not on Wii. It has done nothing. I don't care that my mother enjoys it, I don't care that my grandma enjoys it. These shallow, tech demo mini-game bullshit compilations are the antithesis of what is good in games. And until that changes, you can pretend Wii is an "open door" for new ideas all you want... it has demonstrated none of that at all.

You do need people. I just previously explained that you need people. The 'hardcore' mentality is leaning towards more expensive things, more elitism and all the things that work against evolving the form.

Now, people haven't taken the full advantage of what you can do with wii controls, but there are stepping stones to there. In a game like Metroid Prime 3, I physically pull on things and interact with the abstract forms within in the game. The usual dismissal is that this is a simple button pushing replacement, but that way of thinking ignores human experience. It simply feels different and that alone adds new feeling.

Also, that silly tech demo Wii Sports makes me want that feeling in my sports games now. I love swinging the bat in Wii Sports. While other medias strive to involve the audience, here we have our press and 'hardcores' working against the very media most apt to do so. Seems kind of senseless doesn't it?

 

[Tristam]

Really? Red Steel? Let's wait till NPD till we make that judgment call.

At any rate, lampooning StevieP's arguments isn't really advancing this argument!

 

[Eteric Rice]

Damn. Amirox is out for BLOOD.

Trolls usually do like blood. :lol

 

[schuelma]

Sony tried to rip it off they're just so incompetent this generation that they can't even get the ripping right.

No one is safe tonight!

 

[StevieP]

It seems like this whole argument in large part depends on what you think about Wii Sports. If you think its "teh tech demo" then you're probably not very positive about the Wii at all.

I can never play tennis on a pad again. If you've played Godfather Wii, you're not looking forward to GTA4 as much (I'll be playing it on PC, but I can't swing my mouse to kill a hooker). Resident Evil 4 Wii makes you wish they'd service RE5 to PC with Wiimote support or something. Metroid Prime 3 makes playing Halo 3 feel... well, I never did shooters well on a pad anyway. The point I'm trying to make is that yes - certainly the Wii makes some of the existing genres more fun, and stuff like Wii Sports makes dual-analog feel obsolete. And what etoliate is arguing is that because of the lower dev costs, you're far more likely to see 'new ideas' appear on the Wii rather than appearing on more expensive platforms.

 

[Bidermaier]

The market has decided that Wii is a better console than the 360...

 

[QuickKick89]

Trolls usually do like blood. :lol

Except Amirox buys consoles, plays games, then trolls.

 

[Odrion]

You guys be quiet. Amir0x's rants are like beautiful fireworks of the heart of the hardcore heart, each explosion a deep contempt of this generation's regression, every fading sparkle a bittersweet disillusion of what this generation could of been. All sorts of people line up behind the mortar, matches in hand and stories of how their grandmother or aunt enjoyed a game of Wii bowling before.

 

[Kittonwy]

I don't care that my mother enjoys it, I don't care that my grandma enjoys it. These shallow, tech demo mini-game bullshit compilations are the antithesis of what is good in games. And until that changes, you can pretend Wii is an "open door" for new ideas all you want... it has demonstrated none of that at all.

I have a bunch of friends from work who bought the wii and aside from wii sports they really don't know what's coming to the platform (they don't even know about wii fit, for that matter), they bought it thinking it's "fun" (maybe it really is, I don't really know) but now it's just something that's sitting in the living room and they don't really play it much.

I wonder how many of the wii owners are those who don't play or give a shit about traditional games and are just kind of waiting for the next "wii sports", and I wonder if third-party publishers know the kind of audience they're dealing with here when they decide to move some of their franchises to the wii because of the success of the console. More importantly, given this new composition of wii owners, I wonder how Nintendo will approach their own traditional franchises like Zelda (the only franchise from Nintendo I actually give a shit about).

 

[Campster]

You guys be quiet. Amir0x's rants are like beautiful fireworks of the heart of the hardcores, each explosion a deep contempt of this generation's regression, every fading sparkle a bittersweet disillusion of what this generation could of been.

Again, "regression" and "evolution" imply an objective increase or decrease in quality.

I don't see how anyone in this thread can qualify that.

 

[Amir0x]

I have a bunch of friends from work who bought the wii and aside from wii sports they really don't know what's coming to the platform (they don't even know about wii fit, for that matter), they bought it thinking it's "fun" (maybe it really is, I don't really know) but now it's just something that's sitting in the living room and they don't really play it much.

I wonder how many of the wii owners are those who don't play or give a shit about traditional games and are just kind of waiting for the next "wii sports", and I wonder if third-party publishers know the kind of audience they're dealing with here when they decide to move some of their franchises to the wii because of the success of the console. More importantly, given this new composition of wii owners, I wonder how Nintendo will approach their own traditional franchises like Zelda (the only franchise from Nintendo I actually give a shit about).

Well, we know... Link's Crossbow Training

Seriously though, I'm plenty sure when everything clicks and the hardcore finish moving over to the Wii (just like the developers are finally finishing up their move over to total Wii development), then I'm sure the Wii will get those hardcore games all the same by default.

 

[schuelma]

Well, we know... Link's Crossbow Training

Seriously though, I'm plenty sure when everything clicks and the hardcore finish moving over to the Wii (just like the developers are finally finishing up their move over to total Wii development), then I'm sure the Wii will get those hardcore games all the same by default.

There has been some pretty good 3rd party stuff announced from Japanese developers the last few months. I think its coming.

 

[Eteric Rice]

There has been some pretty good 3rd party stuff announced from Japanese developers the last few months. I think its coming.

Likely is. Nintendo's Iwata did say he's ready to start going after the hardcore gamers.

 

[mysticstylez]

Well, we know... Link's Crossbow Training

Seriously though, I'm plenty sure when everything clicks and the hardcore finish moving over to the Wii (just like the developers are finally finishing up their move over to total Wii development), then I'm sure the Wii will get those hardcore games all the same by default.

The majority of the hardcore already own a Wii.

 

[Amir0x]

There has been some pretty good 3rd party stuff announced from Japanese developers the last few months. I think its coming.

Well I am interested in two: King's Story, Zack and Wiki.

From Nintendo: Mario Galaxy and Endless Ocean (Metroid Prime III already came out)

The majority of the hardcore already own a Wii.

Think there is still a good portion of hardcore yet to switch over. They'll switch over with Galaxy and Brawl.

 

[MC Safety]

That is the only thing Wii has to demonstrate for me, to be "better" than what has come before it has to show that its games are in some way more fun to play than its predecessors (Gamecube, PS2, Xbox). If it can't do that yet, then it still has a lot to go.

I've always argued that making a specific motion—say, jabbing the Wii remote to make Mario stab in fencing or lifting and slamming so that a wrestler picks up an opponent to bodyslam him isn't inherently more fun or exciting than using a standard controller to perform those tasks.

I like the Wii, and think it has lots of potential. But the potential comes from the games, and not the control scheme. Games that rely heavily on the control scheme (Elebits, for example) don't work because they have to ride the gimmick: It's odd that anyone would imagine opening doors and drawers, inserting popcorn into microwaves, and rearranging furniture would be fun. Yet a game company made a game where you do just that because of the Wii's "unique" control scheme.

Mario Galaxy, on the other hand, does not rely on the Wii's motion sensitive controls. It utilizes them, to be sure, but it doesn't rely on them. Instead, it offers great graphics, some neat platforming bits, and really cool boss fights.

Anyway.

 

[Amir0x]

I think we can all agree in this thread that Super Mario Galaxy will be the most awesomest thing Wii has ever known, or ever will know.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Well I am interested in two: King's Story, Zack and Wiki.

From Nintendo: Mario Galaxy and Endless Ocean (Metroid Prime III already came out)



Think there is still a good portion of hardcore yet to switch over. They'll switch over with Galaxy and Brawl.

You don't want the vanillaware game, FF:CC, MH3, Fatal Internia (I think that's the name, been a while), or anything else? : /

I think we can all agree in this thread that Super Mario Galaxy will be the most awesomest thing Wii has ever known, or any system ever will know.

Fixed for great accuracy.

 

[schuelma]

Well I am interested in two: King's Story, Zack and Wiki.

From Nintendo: Mario Galaxy and Endless Ocean (Metroid Prime III already came out)


.

Wait a minute, you're not at all interested in MH3? Not at all??

 

[GaimeGuy]

I think we can all agree in this thread that Super Mario Galaxy will be the most awesomest thing Wii has ever known, or ever will know.

.


At least until Brawl (and maybe even after Brawl)

 

[schuelma]

I think we can all agree in this thread that Super Mario Galaxy will be the most awesomest thing Wii has ever known, or ever will know.

Yes, this is truth. Less than a month now....

 

[Amir0x]

You don't want the vanillaware game, FF:CC, MH3, Fatal Internia (I think that's the name, been a while), or anything else? : /

Fatal INERTIA? That shitty 360 racing game? No...no I don't want that

I don't much like FF:CC, but I'll play it if it's online (if it's offline singleplayer no thanks), and the Vanillaware game looks interesting but I want to see if it can improve substantively on Odin Sphere. Odin Sphere was fun, but I cannot stick through another game of constant slowdown and endless repeating backgrounds.

Monster Hunter 3, I'm interested, but it's a perplexing sort of announcement since I'm severely disappointed about where it's stuck now. We'll have to see what they do with it.

At least until Brawl (and maybe even after Brawl)

Smash Bros. sucks, sorry dude.

 

[mysticstylez]

Think there is still a good portion of hardcore yet to switch over. They'll switch over with Galaxy and Brawl.

Oh I'm sure there is a portion, but nowhere near as big as the portion who are mothers/fathers getting one for their pre-teens.


For example, now I know this isn't an indication of everywhere however it is telling. I was at Toys R Us this morning for the Buy 2 get 1 free deal. At the same time they were giving out tickets for Wii's for people waiting in line.


While I was in line with my games, out of the 20 with tickets 2 were people around my age (26) buying a Wii. Most were mothers and fathers buying one for their kids, most of them had those flourescent Wiimote gel covers. None of them were buying Twilight Princess or Super Paper Mario. They were buying Pokemon Battle Revolution, Cosmic Family, Spiderman Friend or Foe.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Smash Bros. sucks, sorry dude.

WRONG!

 

[Kittonwy]

I can never play tennis on a pad again. If you've played Godfather Wii, you're not looking forward to GTA4 as much (I'll be playing it on PC, but I can't swing my mouse to kill a hooker). Resident Evil 4 Wii makes you wish they'd service RE5 to PC with Wiimote support or something. Metroid Prime 3 makes playing Halo 3 feel... well, I never did shooters well on a pad anyway. The point I'm trying to make is that yes - certainly the Wii makes some of the existing genres more fun, and stuff like Wii Sports makes dual-analog feel obsolete. And what etoliate is arguing is that because of the lower dev costs, you're far more likely to see 'new ideas' appear on the Wii rather than appearing on more expensive platforms.

It's only low in a relative sense, games are still pretty expensive to make on the wii and still more expensive than last gen games and handheld games, we're not talking about indie developers making out of left field games that you can download to your HDD (which the wii doesn't have) for under a mil here.

It's a matter of not having to develop that next-gen engine and hire artists to create high-end textures and polygon models, that just means your game won't look as pretty, but that in itself isn't going to mean the games will be more creative or original.

And if a developer is looking to control costs, why would one expect them to hire MORE game designers or BETTER game designers? They're making wii games to play it safe, not to take risks, it's cheaper to make games on the wii and the userbase is bigger, not having to compete in terms of graphics doesn't necessarily unlock creativity in game design.

 

[Tristam]

I've always argued that making a specific motion—say, jabbing the Wii remote to make Mario stab in fencing or lifting and slamming so that a wrestler picks up an opponent to bodyslam him isn't inherently more fun or exciting than using a standard controller to perform those tasks.

I like the Wii, and think it has lots of potential. But the potential comes from the games, and not the control scheme. Games that rely heavily on the control scheme (Elebits, for example) don't work because they have to ride the gimmick: It's odd that anyone would imagine opening doors and drawers, inserting popcorn into microwaves, and rearranging furniture would be fun. Yet a game company made a game where you do just that because of the Wii's "unique" control scheme.

Mario Galaxy, on the other hand, does not rely on the Wii's motion sensitive controls. It utilizes them, to be sure, but it doesn't rely on them. Instead, it offers great graphics, some neat platforming bits, and really cool boss fights.

Anyway.

You've never wanted to wreck a virtual room? Elebits was a decent game.

I can think of another fantastic title that relies on the Wii's motion sensitive controls: Metroid Prime 3. Of course it, like Mario Galaxy, also offers great graphics and cool boss fights, but good games will be good games with waggle and bad games will be bad games with waggle. There just happen to be some designs that are better suited for the control scheme than the standard pad and some designs that aren't suited for it (e.g., fighting games); it can enhance some games and spoil others.

 

[etiolate]

I like the Wii, and think it has lots of potential. But the potential comes from the games, and not the control scheme. Games that rely heavily on the control scheme (Elebits, for example) don't work because they have to ride the gimmick: It's odd that anyone would imagine opening doors and drawers, inserting popcorn into microwaves, and rearranging furniture would be fun. Yet a game company made a game where you do just that because of the Wii's "unique" control scheme.

It was asked earlier how we define 'better' and 'evolution'. Better is a subjective feeling that is normally realized through time, but evolution and advancement I can say. To me, a game in which you do those things, play around in a kitchen grabbing things, is evolution, because it is a new way of playing and a new game idea. I'll stick with art forms as I did before, and state that Pollack is no better than DaVinci, maybe worse in some opinions, but Pollack is part of an evolution of what you can do with art. Evolution has a tendency to break limits. We break technological limits, but those things still give me a very similar game.

My issue with Elebits was it getting redundant, but the basic gameplay is the strength. It just needed better progression and levels. For me, Elebits was one of the rude first steps into new things.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Games as art huh?

You can show me a picture of a game and call it art and I'd believe you.
You can show me a movie from a game and call it art and still I'd believe you.
You can play music from a game and call it art and again I'd believe you.
You show me a game and call it art but I will still call it a game.

That's just my take on it.

I play games not only for fun but for an understanding of game design. Everything else is just cake frosting imo.

This... is... ART!!!

http://portal.wecreatestuff.com/

This is the art of gameplay... in a perfect specimen.

*currently at 26*

 

[ethelred]

Wait a minute, you're not at all interested in MH3? Not at all??

I'm not. Not even in the slightest.

I wasn't interested in it on the PS2 or the PSP -- why would I be interested on the Wii?

 

[Amir0x]

You've never wanted to wreck a virtual room? Elebits was a decent game.

Elebits was -OK-, i mean average as average gets, but the main problem (besides the terrible slowdown) was that it didn't let you go "all out" with the wrecking. This was the most fun part of the game, yet half the time you had to gently place down plates and shit so you don't make too much noise or break too much shit. It handicapped its possibly only good feature

 

[Odrion]

Again, "regression" and "evolution" imply an objective increase or decrease in quality.

Oh jeez, don't go into this "well the definition of this is that and this could mean horseballs" argument. We all know very well the Wii's power can't even qualify as a next generation handheld. If the controller is such a huge improvement and incredibly popular (which it is), why the fuck aren't the competitors making their own versions? Why the hell do I have to choose to play low-def games with PS2 graphics whenever I want to experience motion sensor controls? Don't any of you guys want the option to have the best of both worlds? To wish for your favorite franchises to have high detailed graphics instead of it being built on the Wii? And how the hell does this cat get into my goddamn room? I shut the damn door and the bolt goes into it, but the fucker still opens it up and hops on my keyboard. I didn't even want this fucking cat.

 

[Amir0x]

I love cats.

 

[Tristam]

Elebits was -OK-, i mean average as average gets, but the main problem (besides the terrible slowdown) was that it didn't let you go "all out" with the wrecking. This was the most fun part of the game, yet half the time you had to gently place down plates and shit so you don't make too much noise or break too much shit. It handicapped its possibly only good feature

True, but there were the power-ups like the noise barrier where you could go apeshit.

EDIT: I hate cats. They smell like piss and they shed everywhere.

 

[mepaco]

It's only low in a relative sense, games are still pretty expensive to make on the wii and still more expensive than last gen games and handheld games, we're not talking about indie developers making out of left field games that you can download to your HDD (which the wii doesn't have) for under a mil here.

It's a matter of not having to develop that next-gen engine and hire artists to create high-end textures and polygon models, that just means your game won't look as pretty, but that in itself isn't going to mean the games will be more creative or original.

And if a developer is looking to control costs, why would one expect them to hire MORE game designers or BETTER game designers? They're making wii games to play it safe, not to take risks, it's cheaper to make games on the wii and the userbase is bigger, not having to compete in terms of graphics doesn't necessarily unlock creativity in game design.

No, lower dev costs do not in any way breed creativity. But I can imagine it being incredibly difficult to get the green light on a game with unproven sales potential if it requires a next-gen graphics budget. Even games with a proven low sales potential (read niche) have the possibility of making a profit on the Wii where it might not on the more powerful platforms.

 

[schuelma]

I'm not. Not even in the slightest.

I wasn't interested in it on the PS2 or the PSP -- why would I be interested on the Wii?

I was asking Amir0x specifically because from the MP3 on Wii thread I knew he was a big fan of the series.

 

[Odrion]

I love cats.

Actually it wouldn't be that bad of a cat for someone who loves them. He always wants to jump on you and fall asleep, or lay on his back so you can pet it's tummy. But I really don't like something that clingy, you end up trying to tolerate it too much and when you finally get irritated at it you feel guilty until you realize "hey, you're just a cat. let me finish Half Life goddamnit."

And I keep trying to kick it out of the room I am in but it keeps opening up the door, any door! I wonder what's it's secret.

Also, it heads trying to headbunt me. What the hell is up with that?

 

[Amir0x]

I used to have a cat that would jump on my shoulder and ride around like a parrot, but then it died from some unknown disease. Fucking scary disease too, coughing up some black slime or something all over the place looking like it coughed up a lung literally.

 

[Kittonwy]

No, lower dev costs do not in any way breed creativity. But I can imagine it being incredibly difficult to get the green light on a game with unproven sales potential if it requires a next-gen graphics budget. Even games with a proven low sales potential (read niche) have the possibility of making a profit on the Wii where it might not on the more powerful platforms.

If the point is to keep the costs down and ensure fair return, why would a developer even take the risks? Green lighting an odd ball project is RISK TAKING, whether you're spending 10 million or 5 million on an odd ball project that might end up selling 50k, you're still screwed.

Just because you're operating on a PS2-level budget doesn't mean all of a sudden you'll take more risks especially when you're choosing to expose yourself to fewer risks by limiting your budget by choosing the wii as a development platform.

If you were arguing the merit of small downloadable games maybe, but not games that would still cost 5-10 million or more to make.

 

[Mariah Carey]

Jesus, I'm not gonna go over this entire thread, but:

Realistically, the only reasons Capcom would push Monster Hunter 3 over to the Wii have nothing to do with the innovative control schemes or the Wii's emphasis on "fun" over "graphics" and everything to do with easy money.

Uh, no, it has everything to do with consumers rejecting hardware company's killing off their favorite systems and forcing a "bigger badder" and more expensive hardware generation on them.

Nintendo didn't "set us back a generation," hardware companies tried to leap a generation ahead when the audience didn't want it.

 

[Odrion]

I used to have a cat that would jump on my shoulder and ride around like a parrot, but then it died from some unknown disease. Fucking scary disease too, coughing up some black slime or something all over the place looking like it coughed up a lung literally.

One time I had to babysit a parrot. As soon as the owners left it flew up on my shoulder, looked at me square in the eyes, and laughed like a vintage cartoon villain.

Why do people even have birds for pets anyway. They're like fish that scream.

 

[Tristam]

I used to have a cat that would jump on my shoulder and ride around like a parrot, but then it died from some unknown disease. Fucking scary disease too, coughing up some black slime or something all over the place looking like it coughed up a lung literally.

Well I didn't know it was possible for cats to be more revolting, but I do believe you'd made a strong case sir!

 

[Kittonwy]

I used to have a cat that would jump on my shoulder and ride around like a parrot, but then it died from some unknown disease. Fucking scary disease too, coughing up some black slime or something all over the place looking like it coughed up a lung literally.

That's disgusting. Poor kitton.

I hate cats, they're filthy animals.