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[Sylvrfonic]

Uh. maybe mentally? But we're not investors. We're getting no actual return out of this. We're just donating.

We just don't like getting behind the scenes on games, is what I think it is. This shit's been happening since the dawn of electronic entertainment, but it was all internal so we never witnessed it unless some big story broke.

Now we're seeing it all the time. It's really raw. And it sucks.

So maybe that's where we can at least empathize with the dudes in suits.

I think that the false idea that a kickstarter donation makes you venture capitalist is a big problem with how consumers are connecting with developers via crowd funding. Although, I'd argue that devs are encouraging that idea or at the very least not doing enough to correct it.

 

[A-V-B]

Most Kickstarter tiers have rewards and you usually get a copy of the game unless you've gone in really low for some insane reason. That's your ROI.

You're not really making bank from other peoples' copies, though. You get back only what you've put into it, outside development.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Peter does not deserve to be defended. Peter needs a wake-up call.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Jesus...when did we all become so full of spite and anger? Just reading this thread and the comments of many just is kinda depressing.

One of the reasons I find relief in Off Topic, and even there you can find plenty of it. I agree, it is depressing. However, I find the "everything is cynical" perception does tend to mirror one's internal state. Not always, but it can certainly be a factor. Important to try and not let it get to you too much, admittedly I've been guilty of it.

 

[erale]

I don't get it... Yeah Molyneux has a bad track record, but is he a liar? Isn't he rather not capable to properly manage the production of a game?

I think he is a gread designers, has great ideas but has no clue how long certain features might take to implement or properly calculate the costs involved to create the game he intends to do.

And if you read the RPS interview you get that from him if you read between the lines. Also what was the whole point of that interview anyway? It was nothing else but to make Molyneux look stupid.

 

[michaelius]

He is last person who should be defending others on not delivering on promises

 

[Chariot]

I don't get it... Yeah Molyneux has a bad track record, but is he a liar? Isn't he rather not capable to properly manage the production of a game?

He literally stated that he is actively lying to get more money. While he may be genuinely excited for his projects, he is lying to get them on track.

 

[CecilRousso]

There's a damn good reason why the likes of Schafer, Molyneux and Inafune aren't currently working for publishers and that's because they have a track record of letting their publishers down.

Schafer is working with publishers. Most recently and currently with Sony, before that with Midnight City. Both Grim Fandango and Costume Quest 2 was delivered without any unexpected problems.

 

[SirNinja]

Not gonna say I'm surprised at the ad hominems towards Tim Schafer.

If Tim Schafer is equivalent to Peter Molyneux as a con man, I guess every delayed game's developer is a con man too.

Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the words "Spacebase DF-9" don't ring a bell.

 

[Haunted]

I don't get it... Yeah Molyneux has a bad track record, but is he a liar? Isn't he rather not capable to properly manage the production of a game?

Yes, he has lied. This is well documented.

I don't get it... Yeah Molyneux has a bad track record, but is he a liar? Isn't he rather not capable to properly manage the production of a game?

I think he is a gread designers, has great ideas but has no clue how long certain features might take to implement or properly calculate the costs involved to create the game he intends to do.

And if you read the RPS interview you get that from him if you read between the lines. Also what was the whole point of that interview anyway? It was nothing else but to make Molyneux look stupid.

You know what Walker did in that interview? He confronted Molyneux with his own statements he made in the past. The promises he made that didn't pan out. The lies he said that were exposed.

And Molyneux got mad. He got emotional. He saw himself confronted with his own web of deception and lies and basically collapsed, lashed out, couldn't take it.

 

[erale]

Yes, he has lied. This is well documented.

Well not delivering on his promises doesn't make him a liar. Lying is when he tells you something when at the exact same time he already knows that this isn't true.

 

[Jump'N'Shoot Man]

I think all the hate that Peter Molyneux has been getting recently isn't really fair. He has big ideas and may be guilty of sharing some of ideas a bit early before he's tried to implement them but I've personally never been disappointed with any of his games.

 

[Ban Puncher]

I gave Tim Schafer $110 and all I got was a lousy t-shirt (and half a game).

 

[erale]

He literally stated that he is actively lying to get more money. While he may be genuinely excited for his projects, he is lying to get them on track.

I think he said that he was sure to finish the game in nine months and the money he had asked for would have covered the costs. He also could have asked for more money to cover the costs for more dev time in case something doesn't go as planned but thought he wouldn't get the money then.

So yeah this was a huge failure and is a great point to show that he's not capable of managing a game project, but does this make him a liar?

 

[CecilRousso]

I gave Tim Schafer $110 and all I got was a lousy t-shirt (and half a game).

You do know that 2/3 of the video update is about how close to release Act 2 of the game is?

The t-shirt was pretty sweet btw.

 

[Chariot]

I think he said that he was sure to finish the game in nine months and the money he had asked for would have covered the costs. He also could have asked for more money to cover the costs for more dev time in case something doesn't go as planned but thought he wouldn't get the money then.

So yeah this was a huge failure and is a great point to show that he's not capable of managing a game project, but does this make him a liar?

It's not just about Godus. There is so much more. This man has a history of lying about features.

"I could name at least 10 features in games that I've made up to stop journalists going to sleep and I really apologise to the team for that."

He even admitted it more than once and yet people defend him like an infant that accidentally knocked a glass over. This man knows what he is doing. We know what he is doing. And yet, we keep letting him get away with his. Project after project, after project.

 

[Haunted]

Well not delivering on his promises doesn't make him a liar. Lying is when he tells you something when at the exact same time he already knows that this isn't true.

Here's the two most popular recent ones that get trotted out.

"Christ, we've only got 10 days to go and we've got to make £100,000, for f**k's sake, lets just say anything"

"I could name at least 10 features in games that I’ve made up to stop journalists going to sleep and I really apologise to the team for that"


But really, if you don't want to count his extensive history of overpromises (which, when you actually read them, were at times absolutely ridiculous and obviously unachievable!) as lies, I can't really help you. Honestly, to wholeheartedly believe his self-portrait as this lofty creative thinker that - after 30 years in the thick of production in the industry - has no fucking clue what's possible and what's not, means you significantly underestimate the man's intelligence.

Absolution through blue-eyed naivete, ignorance and stupidity? Fucking nonsense. Molyneux is a lot more shrewd and manipulative than people give him credit for (or in the case of his defenders, don't want to give him credit for).


There's a threshold where exaggerations and half-truths and "overpromises" become so unbelievable that you simply have to call them lies. Molyneux has crossed this threshold plenty of times.

http://godus.boards.net/thread/348/collecting-lies-promises-unanswered-misleading

 

[Renekton]

Elaborate non-answers it's basically another form of dishonesty, which is what I'm talking about.

Non-answer / non-commitment = lying?

 

[Alienous]

Well not delivering on his promises doesn't make him a liar. Lying is when he tells you something when at the exact same time he already knows that this isn't true.

Saying things, ignoring the fact that you have a history of saying things that do not manifest, is pretty much lying by omission, by not stating at the beginning of every interview that you don't know how much of whatever you say is actually going to happen.

But he has openly lied otherwise. Project Milo, for instance.

 

[Wiktor]

You're not really making bank from other peoples' copies, though. You get back only what you've put into it, outside development.

It's actually even worse than with publishers. Bosses of companies don't directly invest their money into project. They often have shares, but the loss of money is still pretty removed from them personally. On Kickstarter people give their own money and invest emotionally into the project. So the backlash over failing will always be worse. Especially in case of Molyneux, where it looks like Godus failed becaue they switched team to work on mobile version, while KS clearly was for a PC one. So the perception is that Molyneux used pc gamers money to fund failed mobile project.

 

[Haunted]

I gave Tim Schafer $110 and all I got was a lousy t-shirt (and half a game).

And 17 documentary episodes!

You didn't get your poster yet? Those should've been delivered along with the tshirts.

 

[erale]

Here's the two most popular recent ones that get trotted out.

"Christ, we've only got 10 days to go and we've got to make £100,000, for f**k's sake, lets just say anything"

"I could name at least 10 features in games that I’ve made up to stop journalists going to sleep and I really apologise to the team for that"


But really, if you don't want to count his extensive history of overpromises (which, when you actually read them, were at times absolutely ridiculous and obviously unachievable!) as lies, I can't really help you. Honestly, to wholeheartedly believe his self-portrait as this lofty creative thinker that - after 30 years in the thick of production in the industry - has no fucking clue what's possible and what's not, means you significantly underestimate the man's intelligence.

Absolution through blue-eyed naivete, ignorance and stupidity? Fucking nonsense. Molyneux is a lot more shrewd and manipulative than people give him credit for (or in the case of his defenders, don't want to give him credit for).


There's a threshold where exaggerations and half-truths and "overpromises" become so unbelievable that you simply have to call them lies. Molyneux has crossed this threshold plenty of times.

http://godus.boards.net/thread/348/collecting-lies-promises-unanswered-misleading

To be honest I didn't knew about those two quotes. They really let them appear as a liar.

As I do know the history of his promises and the actual outcome I don't know him good enough if he is actual capable of running a company and managing a game or not. But I do know some people that are REALLY good at their job and tried to start a own business. Ultimately a lot of them failed and went bankrupt. Just because they had no clue of actual managing resources and running a business.

 

[Chariot]

To be honest I didn't knew about those two quotes. They really let them appear as a liar.

As I do know the history of his promises and the actual outcome I don't know him good enough if he is actual capable of running a company and managing a game or not. But I do know some people that are REALLY good at their job and tried to start a own business. Ultimately a lot of them failed and went bankrupt. Just because they had no clue of actual managing resources and running a business.

The thing is, that Molyneux is actually successful. His projects are rarely close to what he promised, but he manages to sell his stuff because he has a silver tongue and people keep defending him even with his giant history of failures and lies. Godus is just recent and more blatant because he abused the good will of Kickstarter backers.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Schafer is working with publishers. Most recently and currently with Sony, before that with Midnight City. Both Grim Fandango and Costume Quest 2 was delivered without any unexpected problems.

Not true at all, it has still not been released in the UK on PS4(Maybe Europe too but not 100% sure).

As far as I can find there has been no official statement either on why this is has happened, only comments from posters about some sort of certification issue and Tim deciding he cant be bothered with going through the process again (IE Spending money).

 

[Joni]

It is not unhealthy to hold people accountable for a clear history of blatant lies. Schafer messed up timing wise, but he mainly delivers what he promises. Molyneux shoots for the stars with his promises and you get whatever he feels like. It evolves from overpromising to blatant lies and fraud at one point or another.

Not true at all, it has still not been released in the UK on PS4(Maybe Europe too but not 100% sure).

As far as I can find there has been no official statement either on why this is has happened, only comments from posters about some sort of certification issue and Tim deciding he cant be bothered with going through the process again (IE Spending money).

Indeed, no sign of Costume Quest 2. And why should he bother? People are blaming Sony for it anyway.

 

[erale]

The thing is, that Molyneux is actually successful. His projects are rarely close to what he promised, but he manages to sell his stuff because he has a silver tongue and people keep defending him even with his giant history of failures and lies. Godus is just recent and more blatant because he abused the good will of Kickstarter backers.

Yeah I know what you mean. I have played A LOT of his games and a lot of promised features weren't in the final game. But to be fair they were still fun.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a defender of him. I learned in over 20 years of playing his games that you'll always take his promises with a grain of salt. But I enjoyed his games in the end.

And I also understand that backers of Godus get angry at him and I think they're right to call him out and demand some answers. I would do the same.

But coming back to the topic: the interview was WAY over the top in my opinion. It's one thing to call him out and get some answers. But I felt way before the half that this interview was never about getting answers and apologies to his backers. He simply tried to bash over and over on Molyneux and he apparently enjoyed that. I think an interview like this is a) totally unprofessional and b) never ever justified, no mather how much crap Molyneux talked and promised in his 30 years in the industry.

 

[Lothars]

One guy who has failed to deliver on his Kickstarter defends other guy who has failed to deliver on his Kickstarter.

Film at 11.

big difference is that Tim Schafer has delivered on the promises from the kickstarter and i think the only one they missed was the early access game which isn't acceptable but schafer actually comes out with a product. The other doesn't and keeps misleading everyone.

 

[CecilRousso]

Not true at all, it has still not been released in the UK on PS4(Maybe Europe too but not 100% sure).

Sounds like a publisher issue? It's at least not something that's any indication of a reason for why publisher shouldn't or won't work with him.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Video games
Where inside the game which is supposed to be an anything goes fantasy world you are constantly arbitrarily inconvenienced and asked for more money , but it's ok because we have to take responsibility as gamers, support tah industry! games cost money to make!

Where outside the game you can lie, not deliver, cheat people out of their money , treat fans like cattle etc etc but holding you responsible for that is mean! and cruel! and unfortunate!
Who do these mean people think they are! reminding you that it's wrong to lie and cheat your customers/supporters and that these things have consequences.
Noone has time for reality, let molyneux live in his fantasy world where also happens to take advantage of hundreds of thousands of people.

Both shafer and molyneux and their defenders act like a bunch of children.

 

[immortal-joe]

I side against Peter here, and do feel he has made the same mistake repeatedly. Having said that, there's a line between criticism and personal insults.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

How many times can one man lie about things before people stop defending him

Lying in context to Molyneux is apparently him just being overly ambitious.

He's his own hype man, one who constantly makes claims he knows he'll be able to deliver on.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I wish tim would't associate himself with Molyneux. Whatever you think of RPS's interview(and I personally thought it was great), what it revealed about Molynuex shows that nothing was blown out of proportion.

I guess maybe he's feeling the heat a bit given all his recent problems.

 

[Burai]

You're not really making bank from other peoples' copies, though. You get back only what you've put into it, outside development.

Unless the developer doesn't actually deliver in which case you don't.

It's still investment though. The amount of money invested and the dividend don't change the definition of the word.

 

[HGH]

This is such damage control. Schafer thinks that by coming to Molyneux' defense he can deflect criticism from himself and his own past and future failures. As it is people put far too much stock in the DoubleFine name, same as people used to do for Molyneux. When Schafer fails to deliver again and again in a couple years maybe he'll be in the same position.
I hope this backfires and shines the spotlight on him instead.

 

[kiguel182]

People calling Tim Schafer a con man is just sad.

I mean this whole "us vs them" attitude is sad but it doesn't get better.

As Tim says it's one thing to be held accountable for when you fail but this whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

 

[Chariot]

People calling Tim Schafer a con man is just sad.

I mean this whole "us vs them" attitude is sad but it doesn't get better.

As Tim says it's one thing to be held accountable for when you fail but this whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

Why do you keep defending Molyneux in all threads? He didn't fuck up once or twice, he fucked up over half a dozen times and faced almost no repercussions. Even after all he had done, people kept throwing money on him when he started a kickstarter project without much more substance than an idea.

And you know why that is? Because behavior like yours, defending them from criticism. Helping them to keep going and disappoint more people with empty promises.

 

[JasonUresti]

But coming back to the topic: the interview was WAY over the top in my opinion. It's one thing to call him out and get some answers. But I felt way before the half that this interview was never about getting answers and apologies to his backers. He simply tried to bash over and over on Molyneux and he apparently enjoyed that. I think an interview like this is a) totally unprofessional and b) never ever justified, no mather how much crap Molyneux talked and promised in his 30 years in the industry.

Let's throw out the first question. Can you or others taking thia position give me specific quotes from the conversation that show Walker just insulting or bashing Molyneaux?

 

[kiguel182]

Why do you keep defending Molyneux in all threads? He didn't fuck up once or twice, he fucked up over half a dozen times and faced almost no repercussions. Even after all he had done, people kept throwing money on him when he started a kickstarter project without much more substance than an idea.

And you know why that is? Because behavior like yours, defending them from criticism. Helping them to keep going and disappoint more people with empty promises.

Except I don't defend if from criticism. I "defend" him from overblown criticism.

Also, I have no problem with "disappointment". I have a problem when someone does something illegal. If someone fails to deliver something you criticise the product and maybe don't give them more money. You don't go around calling people con man or liars.

But whatever, I talked way too much about this already and my thoughts on it are easy to find so people can go just read that.

 

[Froli]

Sometimes people need a reality check. And they have it coming

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Sounds like a publisher issue? It's at least not something that's any indication of a reason for why publisher shouldn't or won't work with him.

I never said it was something underlying, just that there has been no official reason given for the lack of Costume Quest 2 on PS4 in certain regions and thus the idea that his games have come out with no problems is false.

Either way, to just not bother saying anything about the issue is terribly unprofessional. My wife was really looking forward to the game but now our only option is to get it on PS3 which is something I would really rather not do at this stage.

 

[Ants]

When people talk about how Peter Molyneux built his entrance into the industry on the lie of what his company was actually capable of, a portent of his career to come, I am often reminded of a similar story about Tim Schafer, where he had not actually finished the GDD when it came time to print Monkey Island, and so just falsified a printing error on the unfinished pages and said "Yeah no way guys it's totally done trust me man what a time for the printer to shit out heh heh", which also was somewhat indicative of the problems Tim would face with having and following a budget to finish a product in a timely manner.

What I'm basically getting at here is I'm not surprised Tim sees himself in Molyneux.

 

[erale]

Let's throw out the first question. Can you or others taking thia position give me specific quotes from the conversation that show Walker just insulting or bashing Molyneaux?

While I do think starting with the liar question was really harsh, I don't think he insulted him. Maybe bashing is the wrong word, for what I was thinking. I was using it more from my german thinking.... What I wanted to say is, that he tried to make him look bad over and over again with pretty much the same question. Still it was pretty much obvious after the first dozen of "attacks" that the interviewer either wouldn't get the answers he wanted or he didn't care about the answers at all as he only wanted to make look Molyneux bad.

So what do you think was the point of the whole interview? To show that Molyneux is overhyping his games or is a liar? Wasn't that already widely known anyway?

Edit: It feels like some people are really enjoying that Molyneux got publicly named and shamed. I don't think there is ever any reason to do this...

 

[CecilRousso]

This is such damage control. Schafer thinks that by coming to Molyneux' defense he can deflect criticism from himself and his own past and future failures. As it is people put far too much stock in the DoubleFine name, same as people used to do for Molyneux. When Schafer fails to deliver again and again in a couple years maybe he'll be in the same position.
I hope this backfires and shines the spotlight on him instead.

You seem really really upset wih Schafer? Are you a backer of Broken Age, or did you buy Spacebase?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

So what do you think was the point of the whole interview? To show that Molyneux is overhyping his games or is a liar? Wasn't that already widely known anyway?

Apparently not - if you go through the trial thread there are plenty of people taking issue with him being called a liar.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the words "Spacebase DF-9" don't ring a bell.

Massive Chalice doesn't look like anything I expected out of it's initial pitch either. It was hyped up to be the next Fire Emblem or FF Tactics by DF only to be a weird Strategy Game with shitty art/character designs and customization that borrows a gimmick from Rogue Legacy.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

While I do think starting with the liar question was really harsh, I don't think he insulted him. Maybe bashing is the wrong word, for what I was thinking. I was using it more from my german thinking.... What I wanted to say is, that he tried to make him look bad over and over again with pretty much the same question. Still it was pretty much obvious after the first dozen of "attacks" that the interviewer either wouldn't get the answers he wanted or he didn't care about the answers at all as he only wanted to make look Molyneux bad.

So what do you think was the point of the whole interview? To show that Molyneux is overhyping his games or is a liar? Wasn't that already widely known anyway?

Edit: It feels like some people are really enjoying that Molyneux got publicly named and shamed. I don't think there is ever any reason to do this...

I really don’t think you are looking at this issue from the right point of view.

The reason the interviewer is repeating certain issues isn’t to force Peter into some corner where he gets specific answers that he wants. Its because Peter repeatedly attempts to either dodge giving clear and concise answers, change the subject completely or paint himself as a victim who is being bullied by the interviewer.

If you are interviewing someone who has been on record as lying to get what he wants, of hyping up things in games he is making only for them to not even exist or ever exist and all the other stuff too (And for YEARS, not one offs) then you are going to have to press certain questions otherwise they will just squirm out of answering it properly.

As for the ‘people shouldn’t be named and shamed’ comment, that is just downright ridiculous!
So people who are considered by many (Devs and gaffers defending him show there are many) to be a legend in the industry, should be given a free pass to do what they want regardless of the lies, miss truths and general untrustworthiness that they have shown over decades? Or the reputational damage it could do to the industry as a whole?
Im sorry, but if you cant name people specifically for these types of actions than nothing will ever change. You can’t just go around saying “Well, devs shouldn’t do this sort of thing” while letting certain ones do it over and over again, asking for money from people who may not know of their reputation. You have to try to inform people that ‘this person has a history of this type of act, you may want to take that into consideration before handing your money over’.

 

[jakonovski]

There's a certain subset of developers who think the customer should be happy paying money for nothing. It boggles the mind, but they do have a point since there's also a subset of gamers who are happy to do just that.

But is it moral to take advantage of willing marks?

 

[HGH]

You seem really really upset wih Schafer? Are you a backer of Broken Age, or did you buy Spacebase?

Yeah I bought Spacebase. I have a friend studying game design right now and she idolizes Schafer. She convinced me to get it, saying how awesome he is, etc etc... and I felt like I was suckered in. Honestly I think we should have a long talk about the man, I don't think she can't be a bright-eyed fan forever.
I also recall falling for the hype of Brutal Legend but luckily didn't buy it. Played it with a friend all the way through and we both hated all the actual game parts of the game. Rest was fine though. I know it had release troubles but still.
This isn't some personal vendetta or anything, I'm sure Schafer will deliver whatever he is planning eventually, but this sorta cover-up, deflecting criticism, and blaming the consumer? It just reeks and is in bad taste.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

"Are you a pathological liar?" is a combative, uncouth question. You can approach the same issue with a less confrontational question: "You have a track record of failing to deliver on promises," says the same thing without making you look like an ass that no one will want to interview with in the future.

As a strident Molyneux critic, for years now, since Fable and Black & White, I think that it is unfortunate, both for Molyneux and for RPS. The matter could have been handled in a more constructive manner.

So on that, I agree with Schafer.

Tone policing is like the least constructive criticism ever. Ditto "uncouth" what the fuck does that even mean in this context. He opened with that question for a reason, he wanted to set the tone, it let Molyneux know the line of questioning he was in for, it was a great hook and a great opener. It was a brilliant choice.

 

[erale]

As for the ‘people shouldn’t be named and shamed’ comment, that is just downright ridiculous!
So people who are considered by many (Devs and gaffers defending him show there are many) to be a legend in the industry, should be given a free pass to do what they want regardless of the lies, miss truths and general untrustworthiness that they have shown over decades? Or the reputational damage it could do to the industry as a whole?
Im sorry, but if you cant name people specifically for these types of actions than nothing will ever change. You can’t just go around saying “Well, devs shouldn’t do this sort of thing” while letting certain ones do it over and over again, asking for money from people who may not know of their reputation. You have to try to inform people that ‘this person has a history of this type of act, you may want to take that into consideration before handing your money over’.

I shouldn't said the should get a free pass or whatever. Of course it should be shown to some extend what their practices are. But no mather what, there is a line between telling people the truth and naming and shaming someone. And I had the feeling that this line was crossed in that case.