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[legend166]

It's pretty interesting how little value is placed on honesty in society, and how dishonesty is so easily hand waved away as long as the person who did the lying is 'on your team'. It's obviously most prevalent in politics, but the proliferation of public relations companies essentially going around teaching businesses/people how to most effectively lie to their customers/fans is really depressing.

And I'm obviously not talking about people who sincerely, albeit mistakenly, promise something but fail to deliver. Molyneux just straight up lies to consumers all the time and people are okay with it.

 

[King Tubby]

I quite like Peter Molyneux. I'm not going to defend him but there is just something about him that I like. He is a very charismatic guy and I think it's pretty admirable that he is still so passionate about games. He does definitely over promise features of his games and that sucks, but to me he is an incredibly likable guy.

Not to say anything about Molyneux specifically but what you are describing is the quality of a successful con man (or politician). You may like them even after they screw you.

It's pretty interesting how little value is place on honesty in society, and how dishonesty is so easily hand waved away as long as the person who did the lying is 'on your team'. It's obviously most prevalent in politics, but the proliferation of public relations companies essentially going around teaching businesses/people how to most effectively lie to their customers/fans is really depressing.

People I think are disagreeing as to whether Molyneux does it on purpose or not. The people defending him I think are taking a somewhat naive view that Molyneux earnestly believes what he says and tries and then fails and has to compromise. On the opposite end you have people characterizing him as a liar and a conman who is very good at selling his ideas and doesn't care so much about delivering them.

I fall in the middle. I think he's full of these huge ideas and wants to share them and his enthusiasm with everybody and then 2 months later realizes "oh damn we can't actually do this, well let's just do this instead lalalalala" acting like it doesn't matter and that his word is meaningless. It's a different game when you do that on Kickstarter, a platform where your word is everything.

 

[Messofanego]

Transcript:

The last thing I'd like to do is send our support to our friend and fellow developer, Peter Molyneux. In the last few weeks, we've seen some extremely rough treatment of Peter on the internet and on the games press. I think it's really unfortunate and unfair and I don't think it's healthy. Obviously, things didn't go as expected with his game, and because of that people are making some nasty accusations about Peter and I can really relate to that, believe it or not.

But I'm not saying developers like Peter and I, shouldn't be responsible and shouldn't be accountable to deadlines. I'm just saying the reaction to recent events and the tone of that reaction is really way out of proportion to the seriousness of the events themselves.

Out of the many goals of this documentary we're making is to show actual game development and show that developers are human beings, and I think it's clear the problems Peter is having are not unique to him. In fact, they happen on many if not most projects. And I hope if you keep doing what you're doing and stay transparent and keep involving players with our development, that more and more people will start to see the process and understand how games are made, what goes into them, the effort and expense, and why game production often goes the way it does. And knowing what goes into the games they play, I think people will enjoy playing them even more.

I get where he's coming from. Game development isn't often public, so the stories that do come out can colour the field as if Peter is one of the only bad apples and that missed deadlines are some rare occasion. After reading the former Lionhead developer, Tadhg Kelly's account of Peter, it makes it clear that these problems aren't new on how his stream-of-consciousness development mind works which leads to confusion among the team and botched design.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

What free passes? Molyneux and Schafer have effectively been kicked out of any kind of publisher driven game development......just as Kutaragi and Wada got the boot from their employer.

...free passes and a flock of defenders in the press

Suppose I could've also included as well as a loyal army of fans.

I'm not talking about employers. I'm talking about the fans and the press as a whole, the same fans and press that these developers weren't getting called out by.

 

[Dead Man]

It's pretty interesting how little value is place on honesty in society, and how dishonesty is so easily hand waved away as long as the person who did the lying is 'on your team'. It's obviously most prevalent in politics, but the proliferation of public relations companies essentially going around teaching businesses/people how to most effectively lie to their customers/fans is really depressing.

And I'm obviously not talking about people who sincerely, albeit mistakenly, promise something but fail to deliver. Molyneux just straight up lies to consumers all the time and people are okay with it.

Indeed.

 

[JasonUresti]

Passion doesn't put a game in player's hands, players that gave you money and that you made a promise to.

I'm not getting into the anemically weak "Kickstarter is not a contract" arguments or "He's so passionate he can't himself" nonsense.

Just as a person, a human being, if you promise something and take peoples money for it, and then later on not only fail to deliver on that promise but it's revealed that you knowingly made things up to entice players to contribute and knew you were under shooting on the money needed just so you could get some amount money, ability to deliver product be damned, well...

I don't have a very high opinion of that person as a human being, and short of physical violence or harassment I can't find any reason to feel sorry for them when people get angry and call them out for saying such dishonorable bullshit.

 

[peakish]

...free passes and a flock of defenders in the press

Suppose I could've also included as well as a loyal army of fans.

I'm not talking about employers. I'm talking about the fans and the press as a whole, the same fans and press that these developers weren't getting called out by.

Are you really surprised that creativity is valued highly in a creative industry? Neither Schafer's or Molyneaux's games have been pulling in top scores over the last decade (I guess Fable 2 is the exception), but they're still appreciated for other attributes. What free passes are they getting that aren't given to, say, Suda 51 to mention a Japanese dev?

 

[mgs2master2]

Skip to 2 minutes if you don't care about Broken Age

I feel like Tim simplifies the issue people have with Peter. It's not just about deadlines. But I agree with his over all remarks. I disagree that making games more transparent will increase people's enjoyment. Perhaps a greater appreciation but if anything I'd say watching a documentary about a game that isn't out yet actually lowers my enjoyment.

Thanks for this summary and thanks for letting me know where to skip to. I did not care for broken age.

I also agree with this viewpoint. Sums it up well.

 

[Gaogaogao]

What free passes? Molyneux and Schafer have effectively been kicked out of any kind of publisher driven game development......just as Kutaragi and Wada got the boot from their employer.

costume quest 2 was published by midnight city (majesco). double fine also recently cancelled a game because 'someone' pulled funding. they will try again im sure.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Not to say anything about Molyneux specifically but what you are describing is the quality of a successful con man (or politician). You may like them even after they screw you.



People I think are disagreeing as to whether Molyneux does it on purpose or not. The people defending him I think are taking a somewhat naive view that Molyneux earnestly believes what he says and tries and then fails and has to compromise. On the opposite end you have people characterizing him as a liar and a conman who is very good at selling his ideas and doesn't care so much about delivering them.

I fall in the middle. I think he's full of these huge ideas and wants to share them and his enthusiasm with everybody and then 2 months later realizes "oh damn we can't actually do this, well let's just do this instead lalalalala" acting like it doesn't matter and that his word is meaningless. It's a different game when you do that on Kickstarter, a platform where your word is everything.

I would say it's a little different than even that. Your word is everything no matter what, but when he was working in the publisher model, they didn't really care how much BS he spewed to the consumers as long as they got their ROI. With Kickstarter there is no ROI, just the product itself. So it's probably fitting that's been Molyneux's final blow.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Yeah totally bro...

Spoiler

Wat?

What he say?

http://youtu.be/NOHJCUDbjJ8

18 minute mark

 

[Dead Man]

Are you really surprised that creativity is valued highly in a creative industry? Neither Schafer's or Molyneaux's games have been pulling in top scores over the last decade (I guess Fable 2 is the exception), but they're still appreciated for other attributes. What free passes are they getting that aren't given to, say, Suda 51 to mention a Japanese dev?

Creativity without the ability to actually deliver is pretty worthless to a consumer. Why should I care about his grand ideas if they never eventuate?

 

[border]

...free passes and a flock of defenders in the press

Suppose I could've also included as well as a loyal army of fans.

I'm not talking about employers. I'm talking about the fans and the press as a whole, the same fans and press that these developers weren't getting called out by.

Sonic the Hedgehog has an army of loyal fans and 95% of Sonic games are hot garbage. It's not that surprising that awful things can still engender a weird sense of duty and loyalty.

Moreover though, there is no such thing as "the fans and the press as a whole" -- there's a diversity of opinions amongst enthusiasts and press, ranging usually from apathy to love/adoration.

Schafer's problems have really only been in the last couple years, and DoubleFine has certainly faced scrutiny over things like the SpaceBase debacle. Expecting everyone who loves Schafer to abandon him en masse is a bit much (especially since they've already been trained to expect massive development delays).

Molyneux's failings have largely come at the cost of publishers, and amount of interest he is able to drum up for his projects is actually pretty minimal. His support has legitimately eroded. Consider that Godus barely limped to 500K on Kickstarter, while DoubleFine got 3.3 million. Ten years ago Fable probably sold about 10 times as many copies as Psychonauts.

 

[Razakin]

Why people are blaming Spacebase DF-9 fiasco on Schafer? He wasn't part of the game development cycle. Unless the blame is dropped because as a CEO he probably had to make the call to stop work on the game?

And the defense itself for Molyneux feels bit wrongly placed especially after the lies (or in his's case 'lies') he has sprouted over the years for his games. Especially after that RPS interview (and few others). But I do feel people are bit overdoing the dogpiling on Molyneux.

But then, I do feel sadly that Molyneux hasn't even still after the interview learned anything and will promise us the moon and the stars for his next game, and some people will again bite. Guess it's somekind of circle of life in gaming.

 

[~Kinggi~]

The actual video message is quite touching and great, and yes watching through their documentary does wonders to help understand things better. That said Peter has a somewhat unique ability to open his big mouth and be wrong more times than not. But ultimately i think its a nice message from Tim and i hope Peter sees it.

 

[Extra Sauce]

It's the problem with the Internet. Even though Peter deserved to be called out, things got out of hand and he is now at the receiving end of something no one deserves.

And I agree with Kinggi, the video was touching and I dare say thought-provoking.

 

[King Tubby]

I would say it's a little different than even that. Your word is everything no matter what, but when he was working in the publisher model, they didn't really care how much BS he spewed to the consumers as long as they got their ROI. With Kickstarter there is no ROI, just the product itself. So it's probably fitting that's been Molyneux's final blow.

You're right, I should have clarified, your word to the public. In the former case it was the publishers holding him accountable under their own criteria. In the case of Kickstarter it can only be the public holding him accountable with only his word and the final product to judge him.

 

[peakish]

Creativity without the ability to actually deliver is pretty worthless to a consumer. Why should I care about his grand ideas if they never eventuate?

I'm not sure why you're quoting me. In regards to Molyneaux he has been cut a lot of slack from interviewers not taking him up on past promises, which have been overstated, but he certainly hasn't gotten a free pass. Both the press and his fans seem to agree that his recent output has been lackluster.

 

[nynt9]

I mean the treatment of Molyneux has been obnoxious, it's not justified. But Molyneux has a pattern of under-delivering so consistent that incompetence isn't really a reasonable excuse anymore.

Obviously, if we move on from Molyneux, Schafer isn't really that far down the totem pole so I'm not surprised he's defending him.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Schafer is that guy in Memento who can only remember today. If he had every Molyneux fiasco tattooed to his body he wouldn't find it so easy to forget about all except the most recent.

 

[Hendrick's]

I'm no fan of Molyneux, but this witch hunt is embarrassing.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Ireceiving end of something no one deserves.

accountability????????????????

 

[Extra Sauce]

Obviously, if we move on from Molyneux, Schafer isn't really that far down the totem pole

Wrong.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm not sure why you're quoting me. In regards to Molyneaux he has been cut a lot of slack from interviewers not taking him up on past promises, which have been overstated, but he certainly hasn't gotten a free pass. Both the press and his fans seem to agree that his recent output has been lackluster.

Because you said creativity was prized in a creative field. But if that creativity leads nowhere it is not worth valuing is my point. Why cut him slack based on creativity if that creativity goes nowhere?

 

[John Kowalski]

pinko man are you ok

 

[legend166]

Not to say anything about Molyneux specifically but what you are describing is the quality of a successful con man (or politician). You may like them even after they screw you.



People I think are disagreeing as to whether Molyneux does it on purpose or not. The people defending him I think are taking a somewhat naive view that Molyneux earnestly believes what he says and tries and then fails and has to compromise. On the opposite end you have people characterizing him as a liar and a conman who is very good at selling his ideas and doesn't care so much about delivering them.

I fall in the middle. I think he's full of these huge ideas and wants to share them and his enthusiasm with everybody and then 2 months later realizes "oh damn we can't actually do this, well let's just do this instead lalalalala" acting like it doesn't matter and that his word is meaningless. It's a different game when you do that on Kickstarter, a platform where your word is everything.

To me he's like a politician who keeps making grand promises to get elected. The first time around you might just think "Hmm, he probably just didn't realise the difficulties he'd face the the budget/political process/opposition/etc". But if he does it the next 10 times, you might just think "Hang on, this dude is clearly just lying to us."

It's like as if there were no term limits for the US Presidency, and Obama just keep running on the 'Hope and Change' platform for 4 elections in a row with the exact same messaging. That's what Molyneux has done with every game he's released for the last 15 years.

 

[Pinko Marx]

pinko man are you ok

NAH SHIT GOT ME HEATED BRUH

 

[Friction]

Wrong.

He is actually right.

 

[Neuromancer]

The hate some of you have for Molyneux is getting out of control. Hate is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die.

If you don't like him, don't buy his games and don't post in threads about him. The more you all kick up a fuss over everything he does and says, the more prominent he will be in games media and the longer he'll stay relevant. (Which I think is great personally because I find the man entertaining.)

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

At least Tim Schafer is making a good game (even though it wasn't really what people wanted/expected)

 

[Justin Bailey]

NAH SHIT GOT ME HEATED BRUH

Fixed that for you. Nah man just kidding Molyneux sucks. Your anger is justified.

 

[Messofanego]

http://youtu.be/NOHJCUDbjJ8

18 minute mark

Thanks for this. I'm agreed that interview had to be done at some point, especially since it concerned players rather than a publisher. Not every journalist would have gone for that tone, but it was essential.

 

[Lrrr]

Birds of a feather.

This right here.

 

[Renekton]

It's pretty interesting how little value is placed on honesty in society, and how dishonesty is so easily hand waved away as long as the person who did the lying is 'on your team'. It's obviously most prevalent in politics, but the proliferation of public relations companies essentially going around teaching businesses/people how to most effectively lie to their customers/fans is really depressing.

Not really.

If anything, the way this gets punished in social media has lead to the current status quo where anybody in any important capacity only gives vague responses or elaborate non-answers.

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Say what you will about Peter Molyneux--I've always respected him for at least trying to go above and beyond with his games instead of sticking to one formula or doing what sells well. I sure wish there were more visionaries like him and Will Wright in the industry today.

 

[BenjiGAF]

Hate is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die.

That's good. That's real good, I will hang on to this. Thank you.


I may have some reflecting to do.

 

[Almighty]

People I think are disagreeing as to whether Molyneux does it on purpose or not. The people defending him I think are taking a somewhat naive view that Molyneux earnestly believes what he says and tries and then fails and has to compromise. On the opposite end you have people characterizing him as a liar and a conman who is very good at selling his ideas and doesn't care so much about delivering them.

I fall in the middle. I think he's full of these huge ideas and wants to share them and his enthusiasm with everybody and then 2 months later realizes "oh damn we can't actually do this, well let's just do this instead lalalalala" acting like it doesn't matter and that his word is meaningless. It's a different game when you do that on Kickstarter, a platform where your word is everything.

Everything I have read about this the past week or so since it blew up paints Molyneux as someone who doesn't give a shit what he said/promised in the past and only focuses on the moment. Honestly part of me wants to give him some benefit of the doubt, but doing things like insinuating that the PC version was the focus during the Kickstarter and then turn around and focus on the mobile version right out of the gate, or leave a skeleton crew still working on Godus while everyone else moved on to The Trail so he can claim it is still in development makes it hard and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://youtu.be/NOHJCUDbjJ8

18 minute mark

Thanks and I agree with him. I am also reminded I still need to grab that game.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Fixed that for you. Nah man just kidding Molyneux sucks. Your anger is justified.

I'm not really angry. I'm just more flabberghasted at this pity party that has someone sprung up. I don't get what Molyneux is on the recieving end of that is so horrible. Who has gone out of their way to harass the man? Yeah, he's been asked some tough questions that may have crossed the line depending on who you ask BUT...So? After decades of pulling this same stunt what do people expect?
This is the same man who promised to change a young man's life and has straight up ignored him since making that promise. And you want people to feel sorry for this man?

I bite my thumb at you Molyneux sympathizers.

 

[Woo-Fu]

I'm no fan of Molyneux, but this witch hunt is embarrassing.

It isn't a witch hunt if he's a warlock.

 

[entremet]

Good job, Tim.

That interview was terrible.

 

[Messofanego]

I'm not really angry. I'm just more flabberghasted at this pity party that has someone sprung up. I don't get what Molyneux is on the recieving end of that is so horrible. Who has gone out of their way to harass the man? Yeah, he's been asked some tough questions that may have crossed the line depending on who you ask BUT...So? After decades of pulling this same stunt what do people expect?
This is the same man who promised to change a young man's life and has straight up ignored him since making that promise. And you want people to feel sorry for this man?

I bite my thumb at you Molyneux sympathizers.

It could be these articles are leading to hate mail and other kinds of harassment coming Peter's way. Even if he's not on Twitter, he could be aware of the sentiment around the Internet towards him. We won't know until someone divulges that could have gotten like five thousand emails or other such things. I don't think many people in the "pity party" are saying these interviews were unnecessary.

 

[DOWN]

I love Molyneux's ambition and ideas, and I hate that he uses them repeatedly to market products where those ideas haven't actually come to fruition. He has earned this reputation. He talks like Steve Jobs except doesn't actually deliver his game-changer ideas when he sells you his product.

 

[peakish]

Because you said creativity was prized in a creative field. But if that creativity leads nowhere it is not worth valuing is my point. Why cut him slack based on creativity if that creativity goes nowhere?

I think creativity is always worth valuing. An interesting idea might not turn out to be great in implementation but I think we're all better of for having seen it. Better having loved and lost and all that.

Regardless, I don't think this thunk really concerns my post. I don't see any slack being cut either Molyneaux or Schafer, by fans or the press. Well, at least no slack that isn't being cut other developers.

 

[Woo-Fu]

It could be these articles are leading to hate mail and other kinds of harassment coming Peter's way. Even if he's not on Twitter, he could be aware of the sentiment around the Internet towards him. We won't know until someone divulges that could have gotten like five thousand emails or other such things. I don't think many people in the "pity party" are saying these interviews were unnecessary.

If you're going to play that card why are you starting at the interview? The interview after all was just a response to Peter's behavior. He doesn't behave that way, there is no interview, there is no potential for whatever this fallout is you're surmising.

Peter is the one continually painting himself into a corner.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Guys, look. IGN gave Black and White a 9.7. That's the same score they gave Half Life 2. That was back in March of 2001. IGN wasn't the only one either, lots of the gaming press (and gamers in general) hailed that game as the next coming of christ. That's how long Molyneux has been pulling this kind of shit. He has been a bullshitter of the highest order for a very long time.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

Birds of a feather.

Basically. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[thewhitehawk]

Whatever dude. You're just repeating the same old tired arguments that have long since been taken out back and put to rest.

We're done here.

Well that's one way to describe dismissiveness.

You are projecting your arguments over an opinion that has nothing to do with them. I already told you and others you were right, three times now I think in this thread.

This isn't an argument about being right, anyone with a sliver of common sense can tell immediately that Molyneux is on the wrong for his actions, or lack thereof according to his promises.

This is an argument about tone and overblowing negative attitudes and your only defence, and some other guy's/girl's, is to show an overblown negative attitude and be dismissive.

I still agree with your arguments, Molyneux did break a lot of promises and yes he has not fulfilled his project's goals, nor his agreement with the winner of Curiosity nor many past claims like the things you'd be able to do in Fable, Project Milo, Fable: the Journey, etc etc. I am not blind or ignorant to any of those things and I agree with you that it was and is wrong of him to do it repeatedly.

I'm not defending any of those things he said. They are plainly wrong, lies or mistakes.

The only thing I'm defending is the tone and aggressiveness of the criticism. He is a passionate games developer that failed to meet many of his promises, not a terrorist to the gaming industry.

If you insist on remaining tone-deaf to that, then I truly have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Pinko Marx]

It could be these articles are leading to hate mail and other kinds of harassment coming Peter's way. Even if he's not on Twitter, he could be aware of the sentiment around the Internet towards him. We won't know until someone divulges that could have gotten like five thousand emails or other such things. I don't think many people in the "pity party" are saying these interviews were unnecessary.

Ok so as you said we don't know if he's gotten hate mail, so people are coming to his defense for something that is hypothetically happening?
Nah I don't believe. The gaming press is dogpiling good 'ol Pete and people don't like it.
I say he deserves to be dogpiled and grilled and interrogated.

With that being said, of course he's probably getting hatemail. Hatemail is bad, people shouldn't be harassing the man in his personal life.
His professional life, though deserves to be hung for all to see.

 

[John Kowalski]

bruh that interview was a colossally unprofessional endeavour that could have gone five hundred times better while still maintaining the same degree of journalistic truth seeking

i mean i'm no molyneux fan and i've only played populous, i only see moly as a potential depressed guy who thinks big and doesn't keep a rein on his words so that's no good either but that interview went off the deep end instantly which is very poor form

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

One con defends another