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[BreezyLimbo]

I never really understood the hate for Bobby Kotick, people weren't lining up to buy Activision games before he took over and then people blame him when he churns out a game people actually buy in droves. Like do people understand how businesses work?

Mhm, I agree. I like Kotick! He speaks the truth in this case, and he's a smart business man. And what he spoke was truth-Broken Age was funded...how many years ago? And they're barely releasing the 2nd part..I can see why Publishers won't work with him. They usually work on a schedule for marketing and dev cycles, and now that Schafer does his own stuff, he has no milestones or schedules to keep up with.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Mhm, I agree. I like Kotick! He speaks the truth in this case, and he's a smart business man. And what he spoke was truth-Broken Age was funded...how many years ago? And they're barely releasing the 2nd part..I can see why Publishers won't work with him. They usually work on a schedule for marketing and dev cycles, and now that Schafer does his own stuff, he has no milestones or schedules to keep up with.

People hate Kotick because he's a good effigy to burn when rebelling against AAA gaming.

 

[Merc_]

It looks like developers are afraid of possibly being held accountable for fucking up now. You can feel the fear coming off of every developer that goes to bat for a proven liar like Molyneux.

 

[Almighty]

Oh right...

Molyneux has built a

Spoiler

theme park

of lies.

He uh... Has.. taken us to

Spoiler

the movies?

Molyneux sure like to take us for a

Spoiler

magic carpet

ride.

Spoiler

I'm sorry.

 

[PurpleMoustache]

Schafer is just genetically a good guy holy crap

such a cool guy

One of the crazy things about the documentary is realizing how much he is his characters and games. Dude is super charming, and incredibly funny on the spot.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

People hate Kotick because he's a good effigy to burn when rebelling against AAA gaming.

And it's easy to hate on him when Schafer gives off this aura of 'I'm the small business man! I just want to follow my dream and do what I want to do, and not what the big bad corporation wants!'

I can see why alot of people support Schafer and hate Kotick.

 

[thewhitehawk]

I don't think the tone is wrong and things aren't blown out of proportion. It's a good thing that this is very prominent and loud right now so that the people who disn't know already start to realize what Molyneux does and stop believing and supporting him. What he's doing is damaging to videogames as a whole.

You say that things aren't being blown out of proportion in the same breath that you say that he is damaging to videogames as a whole. We're clearly of as differing opinion for this subject as we are for our choices of anime.

 

[Neuromancer]

Tim Shafer's a classy guy. I agree with him 100% and it's nice seeing a developer of his stature standing up for PM.

 

[YianGaruga]

You say that things aren't being blown out of proportion in the same breath that you say that he is damaging to videogames as a whole. We're clearly of as differing opinion for this subject as we are for our choices of anime.

I admit that that was a bit too extreme, but in my defense it's 2 AM and I couldn't find a better way to say what I wanted to. Constantly promising things and not delivering at all certainly isn't a healthy business model and shouldn't get a free pass though.

Spoiler

also Yuri Kuma is great

 

[Justin Bailey]

Peter Molyneux is probably the biggest bullshitter in the video game industry, including the marketing people. He has been pulling this same crap since Black & White and the media (and us) eat it up like pancakes. Stop giving this guy money and attention and he will go away.

 

[thewhitehawk]

What a weak argument this is. What I'm reading is "No one got mad until this was brought to light."
Well...duh? How are we to get mad about stuff we don't know is going on? I don't get this defense.

Oh you didn't know it was going on? I guess you've been living under a rock for the past decade to miss the "Molyneux cycle" and the Memento "Don't believe his lies" memes.

If you want to suggest you had no idea that Molyneux repeatedly over-promised and failed to keep most of his promises then you are feigning ignorance to prove a point. If you want to talk about weak arguments, we can start by discussing the way you make yours.

 

[semiconscious]

he's correct, Petey Mol was a passionate man and the fact that trolls got to him is sad. That interview was completely unprofessional and slandering

'petey mol'? really? ...


schafer says:

the problems peter is having are not unique to him...

i suggest tim recall curiosity, & read the eurogamer article about the 'winner'. because i can't think of any other developer who's done what molyneux did to bryan henderson...

the problem is that now, with his announcement of 'the trail', it's beginning to look like molyneux's in the process of doing to his godus kickstarter contributors exactly what he did to henderson...

 

[Coffee Dog]

One guy who has failed to deliver on his Kickstarter defends other guy who has failed to deliver on his Kickstarter.

Film at 11.

What has Tim Schaefer failed to deliver?

We're getting more than we were promised at a later date. Do you not think the game being delayed to accommodate for the increased scale is fair? I don't think anyone that knows how these things work would agree with that notion.

 

[Eolz]

Which is what he actually pretty much says in the video

I meant that in the sense that he would have also deserved it and that wouldn't have been really a problem.

Spoiler

Seriously, I'm still surprised at the number of people discovering hard interviews. Happen in other fields.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

holy shit @ 1:18 I didn't know Broken Age was coming to Vita... what rock have I been living under?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Birds of a feather.

Was kinda my first thought as well

 

[Necromanti]

Oh you didn't know it was going on? I guess you've been living under a rock for the past decade to miss the "Molyneux cycle" and the Memento "Don't believe his lies" memes.

If you want to suggest you had no idea that Molyneux repeatedly over-promised and failed to keep most of his promises then you are feigning ignorance to prove a point. If you want to talk about weak arguments, we can start by discussing the way you make yours.

He was always known for overpromising and underdelivering, but I'd say that it wasn't until more recently when it became clear that he was actively lying about his projects and admitting to doing (and having done) as much. It's quite interesting, in retrospect, especially once people started writing about his origins and early ventures. He was always a con artist, true, but it wasn't always public knowledge.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Was kinda my first thought as well

Why?

 

[HK-47]

Tim Shafer's a classy guy. I agree with him 100% and it's nice seeing a developer of his stature standing up for PM.

Defending chronic lying is definitely what I think of when the word classy comes up.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

Nah Tim. Nah.
Peter Molyneux deserves no benefit of the doubt, no sympathy, no pats on the back. This man has consitently and deliberately lied and exagerrated about damn nearevery single one of his games. Except this time he didn't do it on a publisher's dime, he did it with NOT ONLY his fans, but he completely lead on a single dude who had almost NOTHING to do with Molyneux except for being a little...shall we say...curious?

Fuck Molyneux Forever.

You could say this matter is

Spoiler

black and white

.
Molyneux made the bed he sleeps in. He's the

Spoiler

dungeon keeper

to his own jail cell.
Never trust Molyneux would be the moral to this

Spoiler

fable

.

Oh, god us gamers can never forgive him.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Maybe it's a "80s/90s PC developer" nostalgia goggles, but I am puzzled by how some people in the gaming industry who get such gigantic free passes. Molyneux and Schafer are both in that category. I'd say Cliffy B is also in that category but now he's just that one guy who speaks up alot, not really an active developer.

Consider, as a counter-example, someone like Kutaragi who did a decade of good at Sony but then derped hard with the PS3 and was completely blasted for his choices. Or consider Wada, who was lambasted across the board for his poor handling of S-E. Why weren't these people given so many free passes? Maybe it's a "root for the home team" thing, similar to how Microsoft has gotten a lot of Western press on their side.

 

[Portugeezer]

He got caught into Peter Molyneux's trap, he brought up their Kickstarter in the interview and Tim took the bait.

 

[Leafhopper]

Tim Schafer is ignoring over a decade of Molyneux's bullshit and just making it as if all the heat he has recently taken is just because of the Kickstarter.

Like many of Molyneux's defenders.

Basically.

 

[soxinthebox]

Oh right...

Molyneux has built a

Spoiler

theme park

of lies.

He uh... Has.. taken us to

Spoiler

the movies?

popul

Spoiler

ous

arility can only get you so far

 

[Pinko Marx]

Oh you didn't know it was going on? I guess you've been living under a rock for the past decade to miss the "Molyneux cycle" and the Memento "Don't believe his lies" memes.

If you want to suggest you had no idea that Molyneux repeatedly over-promised and failed to keep most of his promises then you are feigning ignorance to prove a point. If you want to talk about weak arguments, we can start by discussing the way you make yours.

I meant this Godus thing. Everybody knows about the Molyneux cycle. Before we just laughed at it and went "That silly Pete! He'll say anything." Shit didn't get real until he came out and said "Oh about that game...Well...It probably won't be what you backed, BUT I'm working on something new that will totes blow your socks off!"
You see... As was said before, this time was different. This wasn't "Oh another kinda ok to mediocre Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised." This was "Oh, another Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised, and he did it via lying to take your dollars!" Not only did he ONCE AGAIN overpromise and underdeliver, he did it by stealing, yes..STEALING from fans AND THEN this motherfucker has the nerve to announce not only another disappoint in the form of Godus but his NEXT FUCKING GAME. Which OF FUCKING COURSE he touts as the next best thing since sloppy back alley blowjobs.


WHEN HE DIDN'T EVEN FINISH THE LAST ONE.
HOW IS THIS OK.
WHY IS THIS ALLOWED.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Maybe it's a "80s/90s PC developer" nostalgia goggles, but I am puzzled by how some people in the gaming industry who get such gigantic free passes. Molyneux and Schafer are both in that category. I'd say Cliffy B is also in that category but now he's just that one guy who speaks up alot, not really an active developer.

Consider, as a counter-example, someone like Kutaragi who did a decade of good at Sony but then derped hard with the PS3 and was completely blasted for his choices. Or consider Wada, who was lambasted across the board for his poor handling of S-E. Why weren't these people given so many free passes? Maybe it's a "root for the home team" thing, similar to how Microsoft has gotten a lot of Western press on their side.

Not fair really. Neither of those guys made games. I would be Miyamoto or someone like him would also get a free pass for awhile. No one gets too fanboyish about hardware designers and business folk.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I liked The Movies, not sure how much he had to do with that though?

 

[foxtrot3d]

I meant this Godus thing. Everybody knows about the Molyneux cycle. Before we just laughed at it and went "That silly Pete! He'll say anything." Shit didn't get real until he came out and said "Oh about that game...Well...It probably won't be what you backed, BUT I'm working on something new that will totes blow your socks off!"
You see... As was said before, this time was different. This wasn't "Oh another kinda ok to mediocre Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised." This was "Oh, another Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised, and he did it via lying to take your dollars!" Not only did he ONCE AGAIN overpromise and underdeliver, he did it by stealing, yes..STEALING from fans AND THEN this motherfucker has the nerve to announce not only another disappoint in the form of Godus but his NEXT FUCKING GAME. Which OF FUCKING COURSE he touts as the next best thing since sloppy back alley blowjobs.


WHEN HE DIDN'T EVEN FINISH THE LAST ONE.
HOW IS THIS OK.
WHY IS THIS ALLOWED.

You just don't understand the nature of game development...

 

[antitrop]

You just don't understand the nature of game development...

Holy shit, if every game development studio was run like Molyneux's, I would have moved on to a different hobby a loooooonnnng time ago.

Let's not try to make it like Molyneux's problems are the industry's problems. He's singled out for a reason.

 

[fijim]

 

[Zaventem]

Of course the 3.3 million dollar man will do that.

 

[Eolz]

Consider, as a counter-example, someone like Kutaragi who did a decade of good at Sony but then derped hard with the PS3 and was completely blasted for his choices. Or consider Wada, who was lambasted across the board for his poor handling of S-E.

Do you really think those two didn't do anything else? You don't remember how Kutaragi behaved during the PS2 time period, and how much money he lost afterwards? Or what Wada did with Taito (or didn't?), his push towards social gaming and weird management?

That's a different subject, but let's not do as if they didn't have free passes. Some people will probably say the same thing later of other executives. At this hierarchy level, you get some free passes, you just can have less of a hard time to hide it or have excuses.

 

[thewhitehawk]

I admit that that was a bit too extreme, but in my defense it's 2 AM and I couldn't find a better way to say what I wanted to. Constantly promising things and not delivering at all certainly isn't a healthy business model and shouldn't get a free pass though.

Spoiler

also Yuri Kuma is great

I never said it was ok. I never said the criticism is incorrect. Neither did Schafer. All that I'm defending is that the tone is not correct.

And while you can fairly argue he failed to keep a lot of promises, I can also argue that all of his games, regardless of the goals he failed to keep, were all unique, whimsical experiences filled with personality and interesting moral dilemmas. We argue to no end about Mass Effect 3's ending and how little the choices really mattered, but we complain about Fable's 2 ending and how impactful the final choice we made there really was. I put down the controller and thought about it for minutes, even went outside to meditate upon the decision.

Some people suggest that he was a negative force at Lionhead, but ever since he left Lionhead has yet to release a single decently-rated game. They released a forgettable shitty spinoff and messed up the remake/remaster (whatever you want to call it) of a classic and highly acclaimed game of theirs. Molyneux isn't doing too great on his own, that's a fair argument to make, but what he made is a heck of a lot more original than what Lionhead has been putting out lately.

If that's damaging the industry as a whole. I couldn't more completely disagree with you. The industry would be much worse off without Molyneux's influence, whether you care to admit it or not. And Yuri Kuma is one of the most terrible anime I have ever seen.

 

[hank_tree]

This thread is something else. I believe the main problem Tim had with Kotick wasn't that he cancelled the game but that Activision actively tried to stop EA releasing it afterwards.

That's nothing to do with being a good business man or whatever. That's just being a dick..

 

[Pinko Marx]

Also, Tim gets a pass for several reasons.
Yes, what went down with Broken Age and Spacebase were kinda crappy. BUT Tim has not made it a goal in life to everytime he's speaking about his games. Tim has made some blunders, but dude usually makes the games he says he's going to.
He also was the first big name to do this Kickstarter thing. He most likely had little to no idea what challenges were going to come about through crowdfunding so of course things got out of hand.
MOLYNEUX THOUGH. MOLYNEUX HAS NUMEROUS PREVIOUS CAMPAIGNS TO LOOK AT AND BASE HIS CAMPAIGN UPON.
But ok...Lets say the KS funding didn't stretch as far as he'd hope. Shit happens, we get it. But to then TAKE STAFF from the Kickstarter to start development on a brand new game when you HAVEN'T. EVEN. FUCKING. GOTTEN. HALF. WAY. IN. YET. ON YOUR LAST PROJECT.
And lets not talk about the young man he's been stringing along this whole time.

This incident alone is bad in and of itself, but when you take Pete's entire history into account I just can't fathom how anyone can muster up even the tiniest modicum of defense or sympathy for him.

 

[peakish]

Eh, I don't agree with his reasoning. I love Tim but he might be nice to a fault in this.

Anyway, Broken Age p2 closing in on release, woo.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I subscribe to what Jeff Green said about this whole debacle during his Resident Evil Let's Play.

 

[Pinko Marx]

I subscribe to what Jeff Green said about this whole debacle during his Resident Evil Let's Play.

Yeah totally bro...

Spoiler

Wat?

 

[Almighty]

I subscribe to what Jeff Green said about this whole debacle during his Resident Evil Let's Play.

What he say?

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Do you really think those two didn't do anything else? You don't remember how Kutaragi behaved during the PS2 time period, and how much money he lost afterwards? Or what Wada did with Taito (or didn't?), his push towards social gaming and weird management?

That's a different subject, but let's not do as if they didn't have free passes. Some people will probably say the same thing later of other executives. At this hierarchy level, you get some free passes, you just can have less of a hard time to hide it or have excuses.

Except that both Tim Schaefer and (until just these last two weeks) Peter Molyneux are still getting free passes and a flock of defenders in the press.

That is the difference, and that's why I brought it up.

 

[eznark]

No shit he doesn't want people to hold game developers accountable.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I'm sorry, but when you have a reputation of lying and embellishment over several years that you never improve on despite saying multiple times that you've learned your lesson there's going to be a point where shit hits the fan.

 

[Saikyo]

Thanks Tim Schafer for making me lose respect for you. Concentrate more on making your adventure games not having two parts than making statements, thanks

 

[Justin Bailey]

Except that both Tim Schaefer and (until just these last two weeks) Peter Molyneux are still getting free passes and a flock of defenders in the press.

That is the difference, and that's why I brought it up.

Schafer is not even in the same league as Molyneux. He was doing this pre-9/11.

 

[thewhitehawk]

I meant this Godus thing. Everybody knows about the Molyneux cycle. Before we just laughed at it and went "That silly Pete! He'll say anything." Shit didn't get real until he came out and said "Oh about that game...Well...It probably won't be what you backed, BUT I'm working on something new that will totes blow your socks off!"
You see... As was said before, this time was different. This wasn't "Oh another kinda ok to mediocre Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised." This was "Oh, another Peter Molyneux game came out and its almost nothing like he advertised, and he did it via lying to take your dollars!" Not only did he ONCE AGAIN overpromise and underdeliver, he did it by stealing, yes..STEALING from fans AND THEN this motherfucker has the nerve to announce not only another disappoint in the form of Godus but his NEXT FUCKING GAME. Which OF FUCKING COURSE he touts as the next best thing since sloppy back alley blowjobs.


WHEN HE DIDN'T EVEN FINISH THE LAST ONE.
HOW IS THIS OK.
WHY IS THIS ALLOWED.

You are acting entitled. Kickstarter is not a place where you buy products, it's a place where you support projects and, sometimes, if things work out, you get a finished product out of it. It's not a legally binding contract, at least not between you and the person who made the project, so it is allowed, as much as it may despise you. I've backed Kickstarter projects that never came to life, it sucks. That's the risk I took. I don't pin the blame on anyone other than myself. I believed in the idea enough to want to support it, but sometimes ideas don't work out, at least as well as we hope they will.

Also, he didn't steal... the game has and continues to be under development. He didn't grab the money and run away with it as you seem to imply. If he had no interest in Godus and only cared about his next project, why would he respond? Most publishers who have done truly villainous things either gave completely bullshit responses or just remained mute when the internet was up in flames over much worse things like... for example, Sim City requiring always online to work or the latest Assassin's Creed you know... to work at all...? Molyneux didn't do that, he responded in very frank interviews until one of them decided to nail him on a cross for his lies and that together with another article helped instil the flames of the internet hive-mind against him.

I find it funny once again that despite repeatedly stating that I'm not saying any of the arguments against Molyneux are wrong, just the tone of those arguments, you give a response that helps illustrate so well how overblown some people are making these arguments.

The internet has an innate talent to try to alienate some of the most passionate people in this industry just for the sake of watching them burn and you know what, that sickens me to no end. We've lost and negatively affected more passionate developer's lives than any greedy and anti-consumer publisher. People like you, like you are acting now at least, sicken me.

You are not wrong about your arguments, you are just being a dick.

 

[Kinyou]

The tone really is a bit extreme at times, I agree with that.

 

[Pinko Marx]

You are acting entitled. Kickstarter is not a place where you buy products, it's a place where you support projects and, sometimes, if things work out, you get a finished product out of it. It's not a legally binding contract, at least not between you and the person who made the project, so it is allowed, as much as it may despise you.

Also, he didn't steal... the game has and continues to be under development. He didn't grab the money and run away with it as you seem to imply. If he had no interest in Godus and only cared about his next project, why would he respond? Most publishers who have done truly villainous things either gave completely bullshit responses or just remained mute when the internet was up in flames over much worse things like... for example, Sim City requiring always online to work or the latest Assassin's Creed you know... work? At all... Molyneux didn't do that, he responded in very frank interviews until one of them decided to nail him on a cross for his lies and that together with another article helped instil the flames of the internet hive-mind against him.

I find it funny once again that despite repeatedly stating that I'm not saying any of the arguments against Molyneux are false, just the tone of those arguments, you give a response that helps illustrate so well how overblown some people are making these arguments.

The internet has an innate talent to try to alienate some of the most passionate people in this industry just for the sake of watching them burn and you know what, that sickens me to no end. People like you, like you are acting now at least, sicken me.

You are not wrong about your arguments, you are just being a dick.

Whatever dude. You're just repeating the same old tired arguments that have long since been taken out back and put to rest.

We're done here.

 

[Effect]

The harsh reaction to the latest Godus stuff wasn't because of Godus not working out. Stuff happens. It's because it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME with Molyneux games. Its not a coincidence. I don't understand this defense at all.

It indeed would be one thing if this was a one time event with him but it does indeed happen again and again. The treatment he got was harsh but it needed to be. Dancing the subject does nothing. He learns nothing and won't even change and will continue to act in the same way. Calling him out directly and to his face needed to happen. It should have happen much sooner I feel.

 

[border]

Except that both Tim Schaefer and (until just these last two weeks) Peter Molyneux are still getting free passes and a flock of defenders in the press.

That is the difference, and that's why I brought it up.

What free passes? Molyneux and Schafer have effectively been kicked out of any kind of publisher driven game development......just as Kutaragi and Wada got the boot from their employer.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

You are acting entitled. Kickstarter is not a place where you buy products, it's a place where you support projects and, sometimes, if things work out, you get a finished product out of it. It's not a legally binding contract, at least not between you and the person who made the project, so it is allowed, as much as it may despise you.

Also, he didn't steal... the game has and continues to be under development. He didn't grab the money and run away with it as you seem to imply. If he had no interest in Godus and only cared about his next project, why would he respond? Most publishers who have done truly villainous things either gave completely bullshit responses or just remained mute when the internet was up in flames over much worse things like... for example, Sim City requiring always online to work or the latest Assassin's Creed you know... work? At all... Molyneux didn't do that, he responded in very frank interviews until one of them decided to nail him on a cross for his lies and that together with another article helped instil the flames of the internet hive-mind against him.

I find it funny once again that despite repeatedly stating that I'm not saying any of the arguments against Molyneux are false, just the tone of those arguments, you give a response that helps illustrate so well how overblown some people are making these arguments.

The internet has an innate talent to try to alienate some of the most passionate people in this industry just for the sake of watching them burn and you know what, that sickens me to no end. People like you, like you are acting now at least, sicken me.

You are not wrong about your arguments, you are just being a dick.

Your worship of "game gods" is just as much of a plague on the game industry, and it is what has allowed people like Molyneux to overpromise and underdeliver for decades.

But....yeah....creativity....and free-thinking spirits...and harmony and emotions and whatever.

Pffft. This industry began as a place where creative engineers and technicians came together and not only made something creative, but something well-crafted. Molyneux also used to be that way. Guess that standard should just vanish all in the name of "passionate people" right?