Support NeoGAF

[dr_rus]

Driver Signing changes in Windows 10, version 1607
No more beta drivers and hotfixes for us, yay.
Tim is sure paranoid.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Driver Signing changes in Windows 10, version 1607
No more beta drivers and hotfixes for us, yay.
Tim is sure paranoid.

/smh

 

[Mohasus]

Time to use my dreamspark key of W10 Education.

 

[dsk1210]

Driver Signing changes in Windows 10, version 1607
No more beta drivers and hotfixes for us, yay.
Tim is sure paranoid.

So there will not be nvidia beta drivers and game ready drivers unless they have been put through the signing process which as far as I can remember could take up to 2 weeks?

Am I reading that right?

If so, that's worthy of a thread on its own.

 

[dr_rus]

So there will not be nvidia beta drivers and game ready drivers unless they have been put through the signing process which as far as I can remember could take up to 2 weeks?

Am I reading that right?

If so, that's worthy of a thread on its own.

On a clean install of Win10 1607 with Secure Boot feature enabled the only way to install a driver would be if that driver will have MS's signature. And yeah that signing process can take some time - not two weeks maybe but at least a couple of days. Which means that hotfixes will be less hot and beta drivers will have less time to be beta tested.

 

[Nerrel]

http://www.ghacks.net/2016/07/28/microsoft-removes-policies-windows-10-pro/

The big one is the Turn off Microsoft consumer experiences policy. We have talked about the feature previously. It powers among other things the installation of third-party apps and extra links on Windows 10.

So, if you did not want Candy Crush to be pushed to your operating system, you'd disable the policy to block that from happening.

The change prevents Windows 10 Pro users from enabling the policy to block third-party application installations or links.

...What the fuck? It was already annoying enough to have to dig through the settings to disable that backdoor install bullshit. If Microsoft expects people to happily take their garbage apps without consent, they can fuck right off. If they keep going this direction I may have to switch to Linux, but MS knows most consumers will never do that.

 

[Nzyme32]

Driver Signing changes in Windows 10, version 1607
No more beta drivers and hotfixes for us, yay.
Tim is sure paranoid.

Wow. I don't think I fully understand the repercussions this will have, but surely that will effect the way in which people can develop their products, and particularly would raise questions for those trying to create something that conflicts with what Microsoft wants to push. Of course, Microsoft's platform, they can do what they want, but hardly in the spirit of openness.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Wait for //build/ we were told.

Wait for Anniversary Update we were then told.

Waiting is just giving them time to implement/take away stuff.

 

[TBiddy]

Driver Signing changes in Windows 10, version 1607
No more beta drivers and hotfixes for us, yay.
Tim is sure paranoid.

That doesn't really have much to do with Steam. Besides, it's not like it's a new thing. The server versions have had that feature since 2012R2, if memory serves. Annoying? Absolutely. Ruining Steam? I can't see how.

Wait for //build/ we were told.

Wait for Anniversary Update we were then told.

Waiting is just giving them time to implement/take away stuff.

This doesn't even make sense.

 

[dr_rus]

That doesn't really have much to do with Steam. Besides, it's not like it's a new thing. The server versions have had that feature since 2012R2, if memory serves. Annoying? Absolutely. Ruining Steam? I can't see how.

It's a perfect example of MS changing the s/w policy overnight making something which was working previously impossible on a new version. Considering that they're also removing the ability to stop automatic updates even in Pro version you can certainly see where this is going.

 

[TBiddy]

It's a perfect example of MS changing the s/w policy overnight making something which was working previously impossible on a new version. Considering that they're also removing the ability to stop automatic updates even in Pro version you can certainly see where this is going.

Please explain to me how this affects Steam. Also, it's not impossible to install unsigned drivers.

 

[Trup1aya]

It's a perfect example of MS changing the s/w policy overnight making something which was working previously impossible on a new version. Considering that they're also removing the ability to stop automatic updates even in Pro version you can certainly see where this is going.

The policy was announced in April 2015, they just haven't enforced it until now.

Please explain to me how this affects Steam. Also, it's not impossible to install unsigned drivers.

Please elaborate. What's the work around?

 

[TBiddy]

Please elaborate. What's the work around?

Unless they removed the option, you can disable Driver Signing, either by disabling Secure Boot or using BCDEDIT to enable TESTSIGNING. But I'd imagine that at some point in the future, those workarounds will no longer work.

But I do think it'll be a while. There are still a large amount of legacy hardware around, a lot of which do not have signed drivers, since the companies either don't exist anymore or do not wish to provide support any longer.

I'm not sure how much of an impact it'll actually have on the average joe, this decision, but some gamers will probably be affected by this, since beta-drivers for GPUs most likely won't be signed, but aside from that, I'm not really sure. The policy only goes for kernel mode drivers (and user mode print drivers), and I think most "standard" device drivers run in use mode, but that's mostly a guess.

edit: It should be noted, that I'm by no means a fan of this change, at all. They may claim it's for "security reasons", but the end result will probably be a lot of hassle for administrators and power users.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This doesn't even make sense.

Of course it doesn't.

We were told to wait for //build/ before getting upset on here. We waited, nothing really came out of it, just more vague PR.

We were then told by people on here to wait for Anniversary before being upset...

We waited, and more features are being stripped.

So as we are told to be silent and wait, we are watching this shit happen. Shall we contine to be quiet and wait? Or can we voice our concerns yet?

Or is telling us to wait, 'working as intended'?

 

[dr_rus]

The policy was announced in April 2015, they just haven't enforced it until now.

Oh, I'm sure they'll announce the deprecation of Win32 on some Build as well but won't "enforce" it for some time so that everyone would calm down and forget about it.

 

[Felensis]

If MS absolutely wants to destroy it's Windows userbase so let it be. They demonstrated with Xbox One how badly their decisions can turn out. If they think they can turn Windows 10 in something like a walled Xbox garden for PC gamers then I will for sure embrace a Linux distro on my PC.

 

[LordRaptor]

Oh, I'm sure they'll announce the deprecation of Win32 on some Build as well but won't "enforce" it for some time so that everyone would calm down and forget about it.

Win32 has been termed as legacy software since Windows 8 introduced "Modern apps".

 

[TBiddy]

Of course it doesn't.

We were told to wait for //build/ before getting upset on here. We waited, nothing really came out of it, just more vague PR.

We were then told by people on here to wait for Anniversary before being upset...

We waited, and more features are being stripped.

So as we are told to be silent and wait, we are watching this shit happen. Shall we contine to be quiet and wait? Or can we voice our concerns yet?

Or is telling us to wait, 'working as intended'?

How does this even relate to driver signing and Steam? You're probably talking about UWP.

 

[00ich]

How does this even relate to driver signing and Steam? You're probably talking about UWP.

If it does prevent graphic card manufacturers to provide hotfix driver releases I see how it makes gaming on steam worse.
UWP/MS store is not affected as much because of the certification process.

 

[TBiddy]

If it does prevent graphic card manufacturers to provide hotfix driver releases I see how it makes gaming on steam worse.
UWP/MS store is not affected as much because of the certification process.

UWP is just as much affected as Steam. Both stores (and Uplay, Battle.net etc.) have to wait for the hotfixes to get certified, as it looks. If Microsoft had allowed unsigned drivers from a few select companies to be delivered immediatly through the Store, while not allowing unsigned drivers to be installed via the normal delivery methods, the matter would be different, but this is not the case.

 

[Trup1aya]

Oh, I'm sure they'll announce the deprecation of Win32 on some Build as well but won't "enforce" it for some time so that everyone would calm down and forget about it.

Wut? You are attempting to draw a rather rediculous parallel here. What I'm saying is people who make drivers, knew, thanks to official statements, that this day was coming for a year and a half. Nothing changed "overnight".

This thread is about MS flipping a switch and destroying everything that allows a 3rd party marketplace to thrive. Hardly comparable.

 

[JaggedSac]

It's a perfect example of MS changing the s/w policy overnight making something which was working previously impossible on a new version. Considering that they're also removing the ability to stop automatic updates even in Pro version you can certainly see where this is going.

Overnight? Look at what you linked.

Last year, we announced that beginning with the release of Windows 10, all new Windows 10 kernel mode drivers must be submitted to the Windows Hardware Developer Center Dashboard portal (Dev Portal) to be digitally signed by Microsoft. However, due to technical and ecosystem readiness issues, this was not enforced by Windows Code Integrity and remained only a policy statement.

Doom has been impending for a year now, lol.


Peter was talking about this last night too.

https://twitter.com/DrPizza/status/760254426007371776

if the drivers for your hardware are already signed by "Microsoft Windows Hardware Compatibility Publisher", Microsoft already signed 'em.

https://twitter.com/DrPizza/status/760254522849693697

so "Microsoft has to sign all my drivers now" isn't changing very much at all.

 

[Three]

Another example of Microsoft removing features from W10

http://www.ghacks.net/2016/07/28/microsoft-removes-policies-windows-10-pro/

In other words get ready for the ads now that the "free" upgrade period is over.

 

[LordRaptor]

UWP is just as much affected as Steam. Both stores (and Uplay, Battle.net etc.) have to wait for the hotfixes to get certified, as it looks. If Microsoft had allowed unsigned drivers from a few select companies to be delivered immediatly through the Store, while not allowing unsigned drivers to be installed via the normal delivery methods, the matter would be different, but this is not the case.

UWA games on W10 require MS cert to patch, whereas titles on any other storefront can be patched as soon as a fix is ready to deploy.
If a patch needs to be made in conjunction with latest videocard drivers, then a UWA title can potentially lose that cert requirement disadvantage as the patch will make no difference on any platform without the associated driver patch, and the driver patch can be delayed so it is rolled out simultaneously with the software patch.

 

[00ich]

UWP is just as much affected as Steam. Both stores (and Uplay, Battle.net etc.) have to wait for the hotfixes to get certified, as it looks. If Microsoft had allowed unsigned drivers from a few select companies to be delivered immediatly through the Store, while not allowing unsigned drivers to be installed via the normal delivery methods, the matter would be different, but this is not the case.

Yes, but MS has additionally certification for their store holding off game releases compared with other stores. Requiring the delayed release of "game ready" drivers they can bridge the gap between their store and others. Parity

Spoiler

I'm not saying this is MS expressed plan, but slow neglect of the needs of WIn32 (legacy) gaming helps their store.

 

[Three]

If MS absolutely wants to destroy it's Windows userbase so let it be. They demonstrated with Xbox One how badly their decisions can turn out. If they think they can turn Windows 10 in something like a walled Xbox garden for PC gamers then I will for sure embrace a Linux distro on my PC.

Now you might even have to hunt for special hardware to do that too now that the mandate for the ability to disable secure boot is gone. MS may even have the keys for which OS you can boot.

 

[sechsterangriff]

Now you might even have to hunt for special hardware to do that too now that the mandate for the ability to disable secure boot is gone. MS may even have the keys for which OS you can boot.

Please save us European Commission!!

 

[TBiddy]

UWA games on W10 require MS cert to patch, whereas titles on any other storefront can be patched as soon as a fix is ready to deploy.
If a patch needs to be made in conjunction with latest videocard drivers, then a UWA title can potentially lose that cert requirement disadvantage as the patch will make no difference on any platform without the associated driver patch, and the driver patch can be delayed so it is rolled out simultaneously with the software patch.

See below.

Yes, but MS has additionally certification for their store holding off game releases compared with other stores. Requiring the delayed release of "game ready" drivers they can bridge the gap between their store and others. Parity

Spoiler

I'm not saying this is MS expressed plan, but slow neglect of the needs of WIn32 (legacy) gaming helps their store.

Indeed they do. But driver signing has been around for many years now and is nothing new. The notion that Microsoft only now enforces it in order to remove the "no-certification advantage" that Steam has, is bordering on conspiracy theory level. As written earlier, this has been in effect for some time now in Windows Server, and if you wish to be on the bleeding edge and use beta-drivers for your GPU you can still do so.

Now you might even have to hunt for special hardware to do that too now that the mandate for the ability to disable secure boot is gone. MS may even have the keys for which OS you can boot.

What has changed with regards to Secure Boot?

 

[dr_rus]

Wut? You are attempting to draw a rather rediculous parallel here. What I'm saying is people who make drivers, knew, thanks to official statements, that this day was coming for a year and a half. Nothing changed "overnight".

This thread is about MS flipping a switch and destroying everything that allows a 3rd party marketplace to thrive. Hardly comparable.

People who make software will know of MS plans ahead as well. Wait, Tim Sweeney is making software isn't he?.. Valve's not-so-recent push into Linux/SteamOS was prompted by what I wonder?..

Some people can't see the forest among the trees, nothing new. The signs are here already, and no, Tim isn't paranoid at all.

 

[Trup1aya]

People who make software will know of MS plans ahead as well. Wait, Tim Sweeney is making software isn't he?.. Valve's not-so-recent push into Linux/SteamOS was prompted by what I wonder?..

Some people can't see the forest among the trees, nothing new. The signs are here already, and no, Tim isn't paranoid at all.

Lol wut?

Sweeney readily admits that he has no knowledge of a plot. Just a fear. A suspicion.

There is no parallel here. Developers knew that drivers will have to be signed because MS made an official announcement over a year ago.

Sweeney suspects that MS is trying to backdoor Steam based purely on speculation. If he had knowledge of an actual plot he would just say so.

 

[horkrux]

People who make software will know of MS plans ahead as well. Wait, Tim Sweeney is making software isn't he?.. Valve's not-so-recent push into Linux/SteamOS was prompted by what I wonder?..

Some people can't see the forest among the trees, nothing new. The signs are here already, and no, Tim isn't paranoid at all.

You are talking about Gabe ranting about the Windows Store four years ago. Those are basically the early days and since then, alas, nothing really changed for the worse regarding Win32.

Yes, this is very much paranoid. I wish there was any base for this so I could join in, but you (all) just keep digging up every unrelated piece you can find to explain Sweeney's fears. You can hate Microsoft's decisions all you want and there is plenty of good reasons to do so, but it is ultimately not related to the 'Win32 to become legacy' discussion in any way. 'They did bad stuff!' doesn't mean at all that they are going to do even worse in stuff in other areas.

Do you call this a strawman? I don't know what you call it, but arguing like this is ridiculous. That's the forest you can't see.

 

[00ich]

If he had knowledge of an actual plot he would just say so.

Not in the age of NDAs.

 

[Three]

What has changed with regards to Secure Boot?

now that the mandate for the ability to disable secure boot is gone

Before the manufacturers were told to have the option to disable secure boot in bios. Now that feature is optional.

 

[Trup1aya]

Not in the age of NDAs.

Oh ic, so Sweeney he signed an NDA saying he can't tell the world about this plot to destroy Steam.

But he found a loop hole: talk about the plot as if it's hypothetical... MS' lawyers got got!

/s

If there is an NDA, he's surely already violated it.

 

[LordRaptor]

The notion that Microsoft only now enforces it in order to remove the "no-certification advantage" that Steam has, is bordering on conspiracy theory level.

Not really, if you assume the time to pass cert with a driver is roughly commensurate with the time to pass cert with a software patch.
They both have to go cert for the same reason, and cert is looking for the same things in either case.

e:
Like I've said a bunch of times; it doesn't actually matter if there is malicious intent, or its just happy coincidence in MS favour if the end results are the same.

 

[Ludens]

Well, after the last patch a user on steamgaf posted he got 50% cpu usage from Steam on Win10, it could means nothing, maybe he has a problem, but I'm curious to read reports about this update.

 

[Dusk Golem]

The new Windows 10 update apparently fucks up the font for Russian users on Steam, compresses other fonts too, and is making Steam harder to load for some people going by the STEAM GAF topic of what people are posting.

Mmm-hmn.

 

[Nzyme32]

The new Windows 10 update apparently Fuchs up the font for Russian users on Steam, compresses other fonts too, and is making Steam harder to load for some people going by the STEAM GA topic of what people are posting.

Mmm-hmn.

I haven't got that, but Steam now gives me some absurd tearing when scrolling now. The only changes since 3 hours ago are the Windows Update & my Mobo Bios update, both of which happened simultaneously since Windows decided to jump on to my mobo bios restart.

Also some Windows annoyances from this new update:

- All the apps I removed are back
- MS Edge and Win Store are back on my taskbar
- I initially found 6 apps had changed privacy settings as soon as I returned post-update, a few hours later now and there are now 17 more apps that have been added with privacy settings I have to change from my preferred options.
- "Get Office" and "One Note" apps have returned, despite the fact I have Office 2016. The two One Notes now seem to conflict with eachother. Hopefully removing the more recent will fix that, which I'll try now.
- AAC files can not be set to itunes as the default app (bizarrely). Groove is the default, and I can only seem to change it to VLC. iTunes has been the home of my AAC files for years. No idea what is going on

 

[Caesar III]

seems like steam is fixed by switching to beta. Should be in the live version of steam soon.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I haven't got that, but Steam now gives me some absurd tearing when scrolling now. The only changes since 3 hours ago are the Windows Update & my Mobo Bios update, both of which happened simultaneously since Windows decided to jump on to my mobo bios restart.

Also some Windows annoyances from this new update:

- All the apps I removed are back
- MS Edge and Win Store are back on my taskbar
- I initially found 6 apps had changed privacy settings as soon as I returned post-update, a few hours later now and there are now 17 more apps that have been added with privacy settings I have to change from my preferred options.
- "Get Office" and "One Note" apps have returned, despite the fact I have Office 2016. The two One Notes now seem to conflict with eachother. Hopefully removing the more recent will fix that, which I'll try now.
- AAC files can not be set to itunes as the default app (bizarrely). Groove is the default, and I can only seem to change it to VLC. iTunes has been the home of my AAC files for years. No idea what is going on

Yikes.

 

[Deepo]

Cross posting this from the Xbox One Controller driver thread:

Installed the Anniversary Update (Build 14393.10). It has so far broken Steam Big Picture for me; it detects every input twice (and it's detected as 2 XInput devices within Big Picture settings). Can anyone confirm they're seeing the same problem?

I'm amazed how MS has kept screwing up this driver now. I'm almost ready to don my tin foil hat and fall in with Tim Sweeney. Not quite, but it really is frustrating.

Can anyone confirm they're seeing this as well?

 

[Gin]

I haven't got that, but Steam now gives me some absurd tearing when scrolling now. The only changes since 3 hours ago are the Windows Update & my Mobo Bios update, both of which happened simultaneously since Windows decided to jump on to my mobo bios restart.

Also some Windows annoyances from this new update:

- All the apps I removed are back
- MS Edge and Win Store are back on my taskbar
- I initially found 6 apps had changed privacy settings as soon as I returned post-update, a few hours later now and there are now 17 more apps that have been added with privacy settings I have to change from my preferred options.
- "Get Office" and "One Note" apps have returned, despite the fact I have Office 2016. The two One Notes now seem to conflict with eachother. Hopefully removing the more recent will fix that, which I'll try now.
- AAC files can not be set to itunes as the default app (bizarrely). Groove is the default, and I can only seem to change it to VLC. iTunes has been the home of my AAC files for years. No idea what is going on

this makes me so glad i passed on the upgrade - holy crap at the above

 

[Nzyme32]

Yikes.

this makes me so glad i passed on the upgrade - holy crap at the above

Credit where it's due, Cortana actually obeyed the options I set from before. It is staying as a standard search bar, not searching the web or doing general Cortana stuff, from what I can tell. So that's good. Now I have to take the time to delete all these extra apps I don't want again, along with the new ones I don't want either.

Cross posting this from the Xbox One Controller driver thread:



Can anyone confirm they're seeing this as well?

I don't have that problem. BPM seems to have reset itself, showing all the old tutorial messages at the bottom, but that could easily be something on Valve's end

 

[Durante]

Doom has been impending for a year now, lol.

It has been impending for longer than that.

It's good of you to admit it now though.

 

[Deepo]

I don't have that problem. BPM seems to have reset itself, showing all the old tutorial messages at the bottom, but that could easily be something on Valve's end

Ok, problem might be on my end then. Will keep trying different USB ports and such. Thanks for checking!

 

[Frustrated_me]

I haven't got that, but Steam now gives me some absurd tearing when scrolling now. The only changes since 3 hours ago are the Windows Update & my Mobo Bios update, both of which happened simultaneously since Windows decided to jump on to my mobo bios restart.

Also some Windows annoyances from this new update:

- All the apps I removed are back
- MS Edge and Win Store are back on my taskbar
- I initially found 6 apps had changed privacy settings as soon as I returned post-update, a few hours later now and there are now 17 more apps that have been added with privacy settings I have to change from my preferred options.
- "Get Office" and "One Note" apps have returned, despite the fact I have Office 2016. The two One Notes now seem to conflict with eachother. Hopefully removing the more recent will fix that, which I'll try now.
- AAC files can not be set to itunes as the default app (bizarrely). Groove is the default, and I can only seem to change it to VLC. iTunes has been the home of my AAC files for years. No idea what is going on

That is shitty, I don't recall ANY of the above happening to my desktop when I updated.

Cross posting this from the Xbox One Controller driver thread:



Can anyone confirm they're seeing this as well?

Can confirm I don't have that problem.

 

[00ich]

Oh ic, so Sweeney he signed an NDA saying he can't tell the world about this plot to destroy Steam.

If there is an NDA, he's surely already violated it.

It would be roadmaps for Windows/DX/Xbox or something and by staying as vague as he does I can't imagine that he violates anything. He doesn't even claim do know anything and there's no *nudge, nudge, wink, wink* happening.

If he was on a crusade he surely would claim inside knowledge to backup his stuff.

 

[Ludens]

Last Win10 update messed up fonts in Steam, now I can barely read them, it's like one of those font from 1990 sites.

 

[Nzyme32]

That is shitty, I don't recall ANY of the above happening to my desktop when I updated.

Can confirm I don't have that problem.

Well this certainly has happened to me. The taskbar stuff is a mild inconvenience, but the apps is annoying as hell. Skype is now installed and auto logs in throwing notifications at me, so I have to sign out and delete the thing - again. Other new additions / re-eneabled background apps include 3dbuilder, connect, contact support, feedback hub, films and TV, get office, get started, messaging, edge, microsoft wifi, money, news, one note, paid wifi & mobile, people, phone, photos, skype preview, sway, twitter, voice recorder. Skype, messaging and twitter also activated the "let apps access my contacts" setting, which I switched off prior.

On topic of Steam, I have tearing when scrolling, BPM seems to think I've never used it before, and that's about it

 

[dsk1210]

Well this certainly has happened to me. The taskbar stuff is a mild inconvenience, but the apps is annoying as hell. Skype is now installed and auto logs in throwing notifications at me, so I have to sign out and delete the thing - again. Other new additions / re-eneabled background apps include 3dbuilder, connect, contact support, feedback hub, films and TV, get office, get started, messaging, edge, microsoft wifi, money, news, one note, paid wifi & mobile, people, phone, photos, skype preview, sway, twitter, voice recorder. Skype, messaging and twitter also activated the "let apps access my contacts" setting, which I switched off prior.

On topic of Steam, I have tearing when scrolling, BPM seems to think I've never used it before, and that's about it

I also have screen tearing when scrolling through games on steam now as well.