-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Tropes Vs. Women Episode 2 - Damsels In Distress Part [spoiler warning]
- Thread starter Mesoian
- Start date
- Status
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
But how can she do that when she seems to consider that Prototype 2 and Inversion are in the same narrative level as Azura's Wrath and Dishonored?
She's a feminist, with a very specific point of view and motive. Even if she is not aware, she is picking things that illustrate her views, not every view. As such, this is ineffective at trying to "examine and realize what we're taking in". For that to happen, discussion is required. Multiple viewpoints. But her very particular view is worthless without the opposite.
So who's up for funding my Tropes Vs Spoilers kickstarter?
No, that would be reducing women to a male power fantasy copy cat thing.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is the only person that really cares about him and provides the balance Jacky needs in his life. Even if short, their relationship was very well done (much beter than in most videogames) and in no way pictures Jenny as his posession.
Uhhh... isn't the whole point of Alan Wake that he wants to rescue his wife?
DragonSworne
Banned
Should have been a same sex marriage
Oh wait, if it was male-male that would mean that females can't play the role of hero. If it was female-female that means females can't save males.
These sexists writers just keep backing themselves into a corner.
polyh3dron
Banned
TOO SOON
redmetal86
Member
Shit, I wish I had waited for the spoiler warning before I clicked on the link.
If there's a disproportionate amount of narratives doing this, YES. And I'd put more blame on a title like that's come out, say, 15 years after FF7 and still fell on the exact same plot trope when it didn't know what to do with a woman in the plot.
I'm just not convinced she made her argument successfully and knowledge of the context of her complaints are kind of the #1 problem with simply dissecting plot tropes - you haven't made a meaningful critique, you've just created a list and tried to discern meaning from it anyway.
despite of the narrative? what?
the narrative is wrong in the first place..... games are primitive in story department
MrCunningham
Member
New drinking game: Take a shot every time she says the word "trope"?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
So to her tropes are not inherently bad... bud they are bad anyway and you should be ashemed regardless of the context...
GetemMa
Member
It's ridiculous how black and white she is when she views damsels in videogames.
Delusibeta
Banned
"A dramatic reading of TVTropes" would be my preferred description of the first episode. Judging from the reactions, episode 2 is even worse in that regard.
If you really take a step back and examine what's going on in Asura's Wrath and Prototype, how different is it really? Sure the contexts aren't the same, but what happens? Girl dies, you go get revenge. No matter if the girl was your best friend, wife, lover, etc. The key thing to look at is the events in question.
I think the gap in narrative quality between Asura's Wrath and Prototype isn't as wide as you think. Probably the storytelling in Asura is better, since they devote a lot more effort.
Edit: It's funny, I've recently been watching "Luther", a UK drama, and realized that the basic trope of a "damsel in distress" is present there too. Lots and lots of media has these tropes in it, not just games.
Riposte
Member
People who have issues with violent games are going to love this. Indie game namedrops lol.
EDIT: Basically her overall problem seems to be that there is violence against humans in games ("power fantasies", etc), but she chooses to focus on the fact that this violence happens to visit vulnerable females and (though it isn't clearly said) that because males more often star in games women are less likely to be in the role of vengeance seeker.
Showing Child of Eden is really weird though.
EDIT: Basically her overall problem seems to be that there is violence against humans in games ("power fantasies", etc), but she chooses to focus on the fact that this violence happens to visit vulnerable females and (though it isn't clearly said) that because males more often star in games women are less likely to be in the role of vengeance seeker.
Showing Child of Eden is really weird though.
Partially. It's ignoring the fact that the focus of the story is on the Dark Presence, the fact that Alice gets just as much character development as anyone else, and the fact that there's two fantastic examples of fcharacters who are not damsels and well written.
While she brings up some valid points, a lot of her examples are taken out of context completely. :\
No, not games in particular.
Tropes allow for less exposition. Sure, they're lazy, but they aren't intended to be offensive.
If I decide to write a book, and at some point the main character goes to a mechanic, and the mechanic is female, I would need to justify that. Because it defies convention, and if I didn't it would seem strange. Anything that isn't inherently strange would be a trope, to a certain degree.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I can kind of see why people are bothered by Ico's presence, but c'mon guys, I'm pretty sure that the creator is a confirmed sexist.
She didn't claim it was sexist. She pointed out that the idea of a bride, in her wedding dress, shooting the crap out of a giant bug in revenge is considered humorous because duh, girl.
I always said the biggest fictional element of Wreck-It Ralph was portraying a female lead in a AAA military shooter.
Avallon
Member
This "euthanized damsel" she speaks of is not limited to only Men vs. Women. Plenty of times in games, movies, etc. this happens with Men vs. Men as well.
End of the game cinematic
Zombie James
Banned
I don't know about anyone else, but if the genders were reversed and I was the one turning into a grotesque mutant, I'd want to die, too
. I don't really see this as women subordinating themselves to men.
(and I did just that in The Walking Dead)
SolidSnakex
Member
What does that have to do with her putting ICO in a section where she's talking about games that use this trope with romance? That isn't in ICO and it's never even implied in the game.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Is called Execution. Thats the whole reason of 'tropes'.
Eh... Narrative depends of STORYTELLING in most cases.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools
bernardobri
Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
It's not a "monkey see, monkey do" scenario. There's no evidence of that (she even mentions it), but someone can't be blind enough to this day to deny that entertainment as a whole (which games are a large part of it) can influence people, for the good or for the bad.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Watched it with an open mind. Very disappointed. 90% of the video is just spoilerific examples of damsels in distress in different forms. The only explanation given why this is bad is because there are women in the real world who are abused and killed and the gaming medium should be more sensitive to this in it's storytelling.
There is an argument to be made that the video game industry uses immature plot devices too much. This video is not one of those arguments.
There is an argument to be made that the video game industry uses immature plot devices too much. This video is not one of those arguments.
It doesn't have to be humorous. That's actually the plot of The 3rd Birthday.
and Kill Bill.
There's actually a ton of female revenge stories out there. Have you ever seen the Lifetime Channel?
Yeah, this thread was pretty fun. Especially the comment about the gender of the composers for his games.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I can't watch much more without eating spoilers left and right. There's a spoiler about Dishonored that was totally unnecesary.
EvilKatarn
Member
I wonder how many people who actively play the videogames she mentions are actually violent against women.
I'd wager it's a lot less than the amount people who don't have access to videogames, don't care about videogames, or ones who have extremely limited and closedminded tastes in games.
I'd wager it's a lot less than the amount people who don't have access to videogames, don't care about videogames, or ones who have extremely limited and closedminded tastes in games.
IHaveCandy
Banned
She should work on stage-laughing.
Take ICO. Would the story make sense if Yorda went around kicking monsters asses? She someone that spent her whole life in a cage isolated from everyone else. Sure, you could make a point about how no one forced the writers to write the story like that, but then... what? Should every story be the same?
Also, she's using the fact that some characters are females and you get to fight them to make a point about domestic abuse and violence, it's just fucked up.
Her whole thing with the "euthanized damsel" isn't just a female exclusive thing. Look at Gears of War 3 when
All she does is name a whole bunch of shit then labels it sexist then moves onto the next.
Marcus' Dad died. THAT is a euthanized damsel in her view but no, only Maria is.
All she does is name a whole bunch of shit then labels it sexist then moves onto the next.
rain elbows
Member
Beaten, haha! I was going to post that, a series in distress.
No, and that's kind of the point of her entire video series. The stories are the same today.
In Borderlands 2, they have this same element, a big obese female mechanic character, and a little girl bomb making character. I can't remember how they justify it exactly but they do exist.
I guess you could step back and examine why you'd have to justify it in the first place. Maybe in the world of your novel, female mechanics are commonplace? Why is it an inherently foreign concept? Many games take place in fantastical worlds... so a female mechanic may not seem like such a weird thing if put into the context of those worlds.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
It doesn't have to be humorous. That's actually the plot of The 3rd Birthday.
and Kill Bill.
There's actually a ton of female revenge stories out there. Have you ever seen the Lifetime Channel?
Funny. T3B is probably way more sexist than the majority of the games she named.
CaptainSchwann
Member
Even more so the reason why it's annoying to see her character reduced to being called "a male possession". It makes me question if Anita actually played through the series and got the back story of it.
Byronic Hero
Member
D-did Dishonored just get spoiled for me?
That's a little bit ad hominem.
Anyway, ICO spoilers,
the big bad is a woman who, whilst evil, isn't overtly sexualised, whilst feminine, and powerful.
- Status