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[Throwaway123456789]

Nobody is showing off any thrusting on the z-axis demos. I've watched numerous motion plus demos and have yet to see someone attempt it.

Psst, in the MotionPlus demo you yourself posted he thrusts and hits the dummy with the hilt of his sword. Again, there's nothing stopping developers from adding thrusting.

 

[Zoramon089]

He's referring to using spatial calculations to determine your aim instead of IR. It's an interesting idea, but it does open a whole 'nother can of worms (camera movement, range of motion). I really hope Microsoft and Sony support their motion solutions with the type of fervor that Nintendo has pushed. A couple of inconsequential motion games is extremely different from having a Halo or a MGS supported motion game.

This is what Red Steel 2 and the archery demo in WSR do. They don't use IR for it and, in fact, they benefit because it supports being able to point off screen without it messing up

 

[Black-Wind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxquJVGEZo
At 4:20 it completely ignores the fact that he just did a thrust forward.

*Kicks you in the balls . . . or lower lips for using a vid from a year ago showing some spazz-off having problems when we have been told that there have been advancements with M+ sense than.

Lets try again, where are you getting this from?

Maybe you should read new stuff seeing as people have just gotten their hands on it with impressions from something called "E3".
http://www.destructoid.com/e3-09-burch-n-davis-fence-in-wii-sports-resort-134942.phtml

(someone posted this already but I don't think enuff people have read it)


Some nice quotes . . .

Anthony: Yeah. When we played, I wanted to test if the blocking was a really binary thing where if you block horizontally, you will parry a downward sword blow No Matter What, and vice versa.

And that's not the case.

Ashley: Your blocking leaves the rest of your body vulnerable.

Anthony: I held my sword vertically and hit the block button, but when you came down with a vertical slice on a different area and I got owned. Same thing with a horizontal slice.

You could still hit me with a downward blow and kick my ass if I hadn't blocked in just the right place, which I loved.

Ashley: Just like it ought to work!

Anthony: Yeah, exactly.
I guess there was a sort of three-hit combo system in place to keep the fights from being insane wagglefests, which I thought was pretty decent.

We had some good back-and-forth combat, I thought.

This might also explain why that spazz wasn't doing too well with his "jabs". They must have limited it so that you don't win by just going "NANANANANANANAN!", over powering the CP/ Player 2 with a down pour of fast attacks.

Ashley: I felt like the Wii MotionPlus was really responsive. I didn't feel the delay that I felt when I used it to play other games.

I really would like it if you all would look at the newer stuff coming from actual people.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

This is what Red Steel 2 and the archery demo in WSR do. They don't use IR for it and, in fact, they benefit because it supports being able to point off screen without it messing up

Yep, they even demoed it on stage during the conference. They held the Wiimote vertically and they could still control the pointer/aim onscreen.

 

[hellclerk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxquJVGEZo
At 4:20 it completely ignores the fact that he just did a thrust forward.

actually, it didn't, it jittered a bit and then came in at about a one second delay. this is probably because the development team probably hadn't expanded the game to more precisely track the thrust, which would also be based on both the Z response and potentially an addition of the sensor bar. while that is a bit bad, it IS a year old, and not a good metric to define the tech by, so sit back and give the benefit of the doubt.

i'm pretty notorious as a Nintendo fan around these parts, but even i can give Sony their props on their wand (as much as it looks like a Disco Stick ), and what matters is that it works and works well. my only doubts come from the market viability of the product where Nintendo clearly has the leg up, but this thread isn't about the market viability of the wand, and that's largely why i haven't been in this thread, because i have no other reason to criticize the sony wand in any way other than the looks, nor do i have a reason to praise it because i don't plan on owning a PS3 any time soon either. so take note, if you don't plan on owning a Wii, then don't worry about the MP+, and if you own both, rejoice, because you get access to both. simple as that.

 

[Mrbob]

I still don't understand how this is being bundled.

Are you getting a wand and eyetoy together in one package or will they be sold seperately?

 

[Tab0203]

This is using a three month old prototype of the MotionPlus. Go read the Iwata Asks thread on the subject. They've upped the specs considerably, and the M+ now registers 1600 degrees of movement per second. You could probably spin the controller in the air and it would register every revolution (lulz) perfectly.

As far as I know, the only difference between the Swaddle and the Wiimote is that the Wiimote sees the sensor bar, while the "sensor bar" sees the Swaddle on the PS3. Wiimote has a 1024x768 camera at 100hz and the PS Eye is 640x480 at 60hz (or 320x240 120hz)

Could someone please explain to me how this ultrasound or whatever the Swaddle has works? Curious to learn what it's used for.

http://wii.nintendo-europe.com/99.html

Now, I've also been interested in pointing devices for a while, but I've always thought that the tracking would be insufficient, and that the pointer would therefore not move as expected, if signals are only exchanged 60 times per second. Around that time, a sensor technology was released that could pick up 200 or 300 signals per second, and I felt that we should take a chance on it.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

http://wii.nintendo-europe.com/99.html

Well there you go!

 

[Zoramon089]

I always did wonder why people were throwing out tat 100Hz number...

 

[Throwaway123456789]

I always did wonder why people were throwing out tat 100Hz number...

I read it at that Lee guy's blog, they guy that made the headtracking demo. He said it was a 100Hz camera.

 

[mr_nothin]

Well I cant explain exactly what I mean.
I'll just shuttup for now and go research a little more. Will probably just leave this discussion alone since it'll never lead anywhere.

Continue on.

 

[Doctor_No]

This is using a three month old prototype of the MotionPlus. Go read the Iwata Asks thread on the subject. They've upped the specs considerably, and the M+ now registers 1600 degrees of movement per second. You could probably spin the controller in the air and it would register every revolution (lulz) perfectly.

As far as I know, the only difference between the Swaddle and the Wiimote is that the Wiimote sees the sensor bar, while the "sensor bar" sees the Swaddle on the PS3. Wiimote has a 1024x768 camera at 100hz and the PS Eye is 640x480 at 60hz (or 320x240 120hz)

Could someone please explain to me how this ultrasound or whatever the Swaddle has works? Curious to learn what it's used for.

We should not compare IR sensors to a normal image sensor in something such as a PS Eye. Most imaging sensors found in webcams, cameras, etc. use a bayer arrangement for their photosensors; with each pixel representing RGGB (and green being duplicated due to the fact that the human eye can detected it better). So relative resolution is very different compared to an IR-centric sensor in a Wiimote and an RGGB one(or any variation/alternative of it). What ultimately makes a difference is implementation, what each of these companies are doing is very different relative to how they work, we should be careful about reducing these vastly different products into a common whitepaper, spec-to-spec, method in comparing them.

 

[Tab0203]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision.



"Finally we have an interface on a console that lets us do real time strategy."

 

[Movement]

Looks awesome. I can't beleive SONY is making this as a peripheral and is 100x better than the Wii, yet this was their main goal in their console. Its really sad for Ninetendo, I laugh.

 

[Zoramon089]

"Finally we have an interface on a console that lets us do real time strategy."

I loved that line...

 

[Throwaway123456789]

Looks awesome. I can't beleive SONY is making this as a peripheral and is 100x better than the Wii, yet this was their main goal in their console. Its really sad for Ninetendo, I laugh.

Nice try. B- for effort.

 

[ZAK]

We should not compare IR sensors to a normal image sensor in something such as a PS Eye. Most imaging sensors found in webcams, cameras, etc. use a bayer arrangement for their photosensors; with each pixel representing RGGB (and green being duplicated due to the fact that the human eye can detected it better). So relative resolution is very different compared to an IR-centric sensor in a Wiimote and an RGGB one(or any variation/alternative of it). What ultimately makes a difference is implementation, what each of these companies are doing is very different relative to how they work, we should be careful about reducing these vastly different products into a common whitepaper, spec-to-spec, method in comparing them.

Dude, I dunno. In an apples-to-apples comparison, it's clear the Wiimote's packing an awful lot of oranges.

 

[Liabe Brave]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision.

There should be no difference in how relaxed and subtle you can be, since it's all about the same angles over the same distance. And the precision looks just fine there.

Since the presenter isn't trying to fling the crosshair around at max speed, there's no way to tell if the hardware can keep up. There's no technical reason why not, though.

 

[Tab0203]

Since the presenter isn't trying to fling the crosshair around at max speed, there's no way to tell if the hardware can keep up. There's no technical reason why not, though.

I'm pretty sure it will keep up with faster motions. That's not the point.

There should be no difference in how relaxed and subtle you can be, since it's all about the same angles over the same distance. And the precision looks just fine there.

He is waving instead of pointing. It depends on cursor sensitivity, deadzone, distance to screen etc. but what about smaller movements? Tip of the remote: radius 5-8cm (2-3inch).

 

[AranhaHunter]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision.



"Finally we have an interface on a console that lets us do real time strategy."

This is the best part of the controller, RTS on consoles.

 

[PistolGrip]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

 

[Tab0203]

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

Compensate? Inaccuracy? Never had a problem in games (CRT). The menu lowers the update rate to save batteries (jumpy cursor) and different games use different deadzones.

 

[ZAK]

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

Having played the fuck out of Corruption, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[pakkit]

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

No matter the specs, every type of motion solution will have a learning curve. It's a new interface, after all. Your difficulty with navigating the Wii's menu just tells me that you need more time with the system.

 

[bdouble]

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

Not sure how you compensate for inaccuracy anyways. And hey everyone is obviously not true because you just got four people who said otherwise. If it was so inaccurate how does that Wiiplay video work?

 

[Hellsing321]

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

How far away are you sitting from the sensor bar? The further away you sit the harder it is going to be for the remote to see the bar which would make the cursor very jumpy.

 

[PistolGrip]

Not sure how you compensate for inaccuracy anyways. And hey everyone is obviously not true because you just got four people who said otherwise. If it was so inaccurate how does that Wiiplay video work?

You compensate by moving slower and small gestures. Yeah I dont play the Wii much at all... partly because the controls turned me off, I seriously feel like I am not even playing and I can just do whatever I want... the wii play video is amazing though that's why I was surprise. I guess it could just be me not being used to the control though a lot of Wii owning friends tell me the control is hard for them to use as well. Just doing a quick google search has this from ...stiq:

So far, the revolutionary controller that was supposed to be universally accessible is confusing, finicky, and imprecise. Maybe over time, developers will learn how to create challenging games that also have intuitive controls, not just one or the other. Until then, the Wii Remote is breaking more than just TV screens... it's breaking hearts.

http://www....stiq.com/2007/04/02/cooking-mama-cook-off-highlights-wii-remote-issues/

 

[deathkiller]

I think that the Sony's "pointer" is better for Strategy games (but no for FPSs) since is more similar to a mouse (in the RTS demo they aren't pointing to the screen, but moving the Wand "over the screen" as if the screen were under your hand, like with mouses) witch make more sense to games that show a "table" on the screen.

In the end no matter how good is their technology, Sony won't push it http://gizmodo.com/5279079/sony-dual-shock-still-defacto-motion-control-secondary so it will end with an small niche of an optional accessory.

 

[..pakbeka..]

this is the best thread ever



you can tell what anyone is saying just by looking at their avatar image

Something must be wrong with me then because when I use the wiimote I have to compensate greatly for the pointer's inaccuracy. Everyone I talk to tells me the same.. just clicking on the menus is hard.

Some games are that way for some reason, like Punch-out, over sensitive pointer controls in games that don't even require any motion

 

[PistolGrip]

How far away are you sitting from the sensor bar? The further away you sit the harder it is going to be for the remote to see the bar which would make the cursor very jumpy.

hrm it does get jumpy for me, i'll try that thanks... My whole family has Wiis is hard not to play this thing

 

[pakkit]

http://www....stiq.com/2007/04/02/cooking-mama-cook-off-highlights-wii-remote-issues/

That article is talking about motion controls, which Nintendo has pretty much admitted were flawed by "patching" through the MotionPlus. The IR control is where your complaints stem from, and that's been almost universally praised.

 

[Rocket Punch]

So in this thread I've learned from our trusted resident GAF experts that the sony wand has TRUE 1:1 response with no discernible delay based on human perception and that nintendo's Motion + has only 0.8:1 response with 0.3 sec delay at absolute zero temperature under the normal electromagnetic spectrum in zero gravity.

We're extremely lucky to have so many industry insiders with access to prototype technology to ascertain superior from inferior hardware. God help us if we had no way of knowing who's techno-dick is bigger in our console of choice!

 

[Duke Togo]

So in these thread I've learned from our trusted resident GAF experts that the sony wand has TRUE 1:1 response with no discernible delay based on human perception and that nintendo's Motion + has only 0.8:1 response with 0.3 sec delay at absolute zero temperature with under the normal electromagnetic spectrum in zero gravity.

We're extremely lucky to have so many industry insiders with access to prototype technology to ascertain superior from inferior hardware. God help us if we had no way of knowing who's techno-dick is bigger in our console of choice!

Finally, a voice of reason! Its as though everybody here has been called out in one massive, sweeping gesture! I wish there were more people like you to rid this message board of the scourge that plagues it. Truly a hero in our midst! It takes a man of brawn to throw himself on the sword for the greater good.

I propose that we end this charade. Lay down your arms, and trust in Rocket Punch's wisdom...for he will lead us to salvation!

 

[allreal]

So in these thread I've learned from our trusted resident GAF experts that the sony wand has TRUE 1:1 response with no discernible delay based on human perception and that nintendo's Motion + has only 0.8:1 response with 0.3 sec delay at absolute zero temperature with under the normal electromagnetic spectrum in zero gravity.

We're extremely lucky to have so many industry insiders with access to prototype technology to ascertain superior from inferior hardware. God help us if we had no way of knowing who's techno-dick is bigger in our console of choice!

i quote because i like. you my friend are a gentlemen and a scholar.

 

[PistolGrip]

Finally, a voice of reason! Its as though everybody here has been called out in one massive, sweeping gesture! I wish there were more people like you to rid this message board of the scourge that plagues it. Truly a hero in our midst! It takes a man of brawn to throw himself on the sword for the greater good.

I propose that we end this charade. Lay down your arms, and trust in Rocket Punch's wisdom...for he will lead us to salvation!

I approve

 

[SSJ1Goku]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision.



"Finally we have an interface on a console that lets us do real time strategy."

What's wrong with it?

:lol Oh I get it, Nintendo gets a "It's an old demo" free pass but Sony's tech demo is garbage am I right?

 

[SSJ1Goku]

So in these thread I've learned from our trusted resident GAF experts that the sony wand has TRUE 1:1 response with no discernible delay based on human perception and that nintendo's Motion + has only 0.8:1 response with 0.3 sec delay at absolute zero temperature under the normal electromagnetic spectrum in zero gravity.

We're extremely lucky to have so many industry insiders with access to prototype technology to ascertain superior from inferior hardware. God help us if we had no way of knowing who's techno-dick is bigger in our console of choice!

Nobody is forcing you to be in a topic about Sony's motion controller , in fact I am still trying to figure out why some of you are in here trolling.

 

[TTP]

The "pointer" function doesn't look that great. That's the best feature of the Wii. Very little hand movement, comfort (resting on your couch/leg), speed and precision.



"Finally we have an interface on a console that lets us do real time strategy."

hm... that actually seems to work a bit differently. On the Wii, pointing doesn't require to move the hand around. You just rotate the wrist so that the Wiimote points to the part of the screen u want to interact with.

For what I can understand from that giffed part of the presentation, it looks like you have to actually move the lightdildo around (not just orientate it), which is definitely more stressful.

Not sure tho. There might be a gyroscope in that thing that kinda helps out.

What's wrong with it?

I think what I posted is what he was referring to.

 

[Black-Wind]

What's wrong with it?

:lol Oh I get it, Nintendo gets a "It's an old demo" free pass but Sony's tech demo is garbage am I right?

. . . Wat?

 

[Rocket Punch]

Nobody is forcing you to be in a topic about Sony's motion controller , in fact I am still trying to figure out why some of you are in here trolling.

Does that honestly read as trolling to you? I posted that with the purpose of showing how ridiculous the duscussion has turned in this thread.

There's no real discussing about possible gaming applications of the technology. The discussion is centered, as usual, in presenting a particularly endorsed piece of hardware as superior to the perceived competition.

It's pitiful and depressing at the same time. Is it wrong to expect some maturity in threads? Is that why I shouldn't be here?

 

[Alx]

For what I can understand from that giffed part of the presentation, it looks like you have to actually move the lightdildo around (not just orientate it), which is definitely more stressful.

Not sure tho.

It's certainly how it's done here. You have to keep in mind that the in this case the sony system is basically like a reverse nintendo system, where you're holding the sensor bar (light source) and the real sensor is under the TV ; the accelerometers not being used for pointing...
In theory you could use the 1:1 estimation to get a pointing system that would work only by moving your wrist, but it would probably be less precise than the ball-only method. And you wouldn't be pointing toward the screen anyway, so I don't know if it would feel intuitive.

 

[Tab0203]

hm... that actually seems to work a bit differently. On the Wii, pointing doesn't require to move the hand around. You just rotate the wrist so that the Wiimote points to the part of the screen u want to interact with.

For what I can understand from that giffed part of the presentation, it looks like you have to actually move the lightdildo around (not just orientate it), which is definitely more stressful.

Not sure tho. There might be a gyroscope in that thing that kinda helps out.



I think what I posted is what he was referring to.

Correct.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Does that honestly read as trolling to you? I posted that with the purpose of showing how ridiculous the duscussion has turned in this thread.

There's no real discussing about possible gaming applications of the technology. The discussion is centered, as usual, in presenting a particularly endorsed piece of hardware as superior to the perceived competition.

It's pitiful and depressing at the same time. Is it wrong to expect some maturity in threads? Is that why I shouldn't be here?

I was not refering to you (regarding the trolling), I was refering to what happened in the topic a few pages back.

 

[TTP]

In theory you could use the 1:1 estimation to get a pointing system that would work only by moving your wrist, but it would probably be less precise than the ball-only method. And you wouldn't be pointing toward the screen anyway, so I don't know if it would feel intuitive.

Well, you don't really point toward the screen with the Wii solution either. But that's beyond the point.

Perhaps a way to simulate pointing is having the Eye to assume the ball is the starting point of the imaginary line, and then "draw" that line from there towards the screen using the accelerometers/gyroscope/whatever is in there to determine the orientation of the thing. Cos sure it DOES detect orientation somehow. When he placed the dildo vertically at the beginning of the presentation (check this @ 1:05) and rotated it around the vertical axis, the digital version of it mapped that move 1:1, despite the ball being er... spheric (meaning the camera alone can't tell if the ball is rotating).

Edit: actually the flashlight demo proves pointing is a non-issue.

 

[Alx]

Well, you don't really point toward the screen with the Wii solution either. But that's beyond the point.

Anyway now that I think about it, you could absolutely use the wand by pointing toward the camera, ball forward. It's just a change of coordinates.

And yes there are sensors inside the wand for motion measurement, that's how the 1:1 is made possible. The ball only allows to detect the "line of sight" between the wand and the camera, and maybe the distance. Everything else is measured by internal sensors.

 

[Graphics Horse]

hm... that actually seems to work a bit differently. On the Wii, pointing doesn't require to move the hand around. You just rotate the wrist so that the Wiimote points to the part of the screen u want to interact with.

For what I can understand from that giffed part of the presentation, it looks like you have to actually move the lightdildo around (not just orientate it), which is definitely more stressful.

.

From what I understand (which is sketchy), the Sony wand contains accelerometers like the Sixaxis or Wiimote, but has no functionality as a pointer. Instead, it's more like writing or drawing in the sky.
I'm going to have to watch the conference again, but I think the only demo which showed wii-like aiming was the archery one, which uses both controllers to determine the angle of the line between them.

edit: nah, I'm probably wrong, I'd missed the start of this in the conference.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

From what I understand (which is sketchy), the Sony wand contains accelerometers like the Sixaxis or Wiimote, but has no functionality as a pointer. Instead, it's more like writing or drawing in the sky.
I'm going to have to watch the conference again, but I think the only demo which showed wii-like aiming was the archery one, which uses both controllers to determine the angle of the line between them.

edit: nah, I'm probably wrong, I'd missed the start of this in the conference.

Seeing the augmented reality parts, it becomes clear that the system as a whole detects rotation, even when the Eye shouldn't be able to pick it up. Pointing the glowing ball towards the camera and turning it so that the camera isn't able to see it is moving, should still result in the turning being detected.


Ah, I see TTP is saying the same

 

[Atcha]

I were impressed by the Sony REMote.

If it's used for Gamers Game, I will support it. If it's just for casual thing...it's without me.
I have the same opinion about the natal.


Games for Gamers = YEAH
CAsual Game like nintendo = Oh NOES !

 

[Graphics Horse]

Seeing the augmented reality parts, it becomes clear that the system as a whole detects rotation, even when the Eye shouldn't be able to pick it up. Pointing the glowing ball towards the camera and turning it so that the camera isn't able to see it is moving, should still result in the turning being detected.

Yeah I'd only seen in from the spraypaint onwards, but the stuff at the start suggests you can use it as a pointer too.
I've no idea how it knows which direction it's pointing relative to the screen.

 

[Wollan]

I've no idea how it knows which direction it's pointing relative to the screen.

It was kinda a mystery to me as well. Doctor_No had a detailed post some pages back however:

No, the PSMote. For example, the FPS section. He aimed around with one remote and it showcased every little shake in his hand instantly. Minute movement. How do they determine the aim? It looked way too precise and instant to be just accelerometers.
The ultrasonic sound and ball positioning seem enough for one x,y,z reference point but they would need a second reference point somehow.

I'm speculating since there really isn't much information available at the moment, but it seems to me that the Sony Remote is using a combination of optical mocap techniques using markers (using the LED orbs), ultrasound, biometric techniques (facial recognition, etc), and the use of orientation based sensors (accelerometers etc).

The combination of those techniques should be more then enough to get that level of accuracy. Writing with the LED orb alone is conceptually similar to those pictures where people write out words or drawing pictures using a penlight and a long-shutter speed camera.