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[AndyD]

So you tilt to move, and you straighten the controller to stand still? As if that weren't bad enough: instead of just tilting more to turn faster, you'd... squeeze a trigger? What???

Or you could just sit with a DS3 in your lap. It's pretty comfortable that way.

I didnt make it clear.

Two approaches I though of. One where it works like an airplane joystick. Return to center to stop, more tilt means more speed. But this can get annoying as its not attached to anything solid and there is no free auto recenter like a joystick so you could end up always moving around.

The second uses tilt but only reads it when you press the trigger. So whatever "center" you have when you press that is the zero spot and its all relative movement and tilt from that faux center. When you let go of the trigger its full stop so moving the stick does not affect movement and you can do other actions. This would work as you could just do slight tilts for direction of movement. When you press the trigger again, its a "new center" so you don't feel like you have to hold it a certain way at any time.

Most FPS games have pretty much two movement speeds, walk/jog and full sprint so there is no need for super fine control of the tilt, a slight or strong tilt left means you are strafing left. A tilt forward means walking forward. It allows full 360 degree like a current stick without a need to be super accurate or return to an imaginary center to stop. And pressing the trigger all the way in to the click could be the "sprint" speed.

I wish I had some way to test this and see if it would be comfortable/doable.

 

[Boss1337]

the wands don't need some kind of big analog stick like DS3s have, I can see Sony going for something more like the analog nub on the PSP for each wand

 

[LivingEarth]

My guess at the price in the USA:

$75.00

PS Eye curently costs $40.00 (39.95 plus tax)
Then if you look at the wii controller ($40.00) and subtract the nunchuck (-$5.00)
and replace out the speaker with the light and kill off the dpad. ($35.00)

Maybe as low as $70.00 but I would say around $75.00.

It starts to get towards $100 if you add two controllers to the mix and
the bad part about this is that you can have ONLY 4 controllers.

So either two people use two controllers (which is quite expensive, but allows you to get the best control out of the games) or each person has their own controller which give you four players playing the game in the most basic mode.

So, the price can add up quickly it seems.

 

[mr_nothin]

Part III is up:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-iii-deep-dive-into-the-e3-demo/


Dont know if i'm late or not :/

 

[mckmas8808]

Part III is up:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-iii-deep-dive-into-the-e3-demo/


Dont know if i'm late or not :/

What does it show? I can't view it.

 

[mr_nothin]

What does it show? I can't view it.

More in-depth view of the E3 demo. Not really much new...
Just shows how precise it can be and how it's 1:1 in position and movements.

Try this:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/560/309.963

 

[TTP]

Meh. They should have released all this stuff close to E3. Now... doesn't really offer anything new.

Not that it matters since we all know it's gonna fail.

 

[mr_nothin]

Meh. They should have released all this stuff close to E3. Now... doesn't really offer anything new.

Not that it matter since we all know it's gonna fail.

Well that depends on if there's an analog or not :lol
It's funny how they say it's really important to have some sort of "analog control" as the video ends. :lol

There seems to be a delay between what's on the screen and in real life. LCD delay or PSEye delay?

 

[SolidusDave]

Part III is up:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-iii-deep-dive-into-the-e3-demo/

In the tank ego-mode demo they use one wand to control the shooting and the other one to control the driving (w/o the need of an analog stick)

 

[TTP]

Well that depends on if there's an analog or not :lol
It's funny how they say it's really important to have some sort of "analog control" as the video ends. :lol

Sadly that refers to just the trigger.

There seems to be a delay between what's on the screen and in real life. LCD delay or PSEye delay?

I don't see it. Of course it can't technically be 0ms delay, but I don't see it. But this is just simple demos. Who knows how it will perform in more busy situations.

 

[mr_nothin]

Sadly that refers to just the trigger.



I don't see it. Of course it can't technically be 0ms delay, but I don't see it. But this is just simple demos. Who knows how it will perform in more busy situations.

You dont see the delay when they show the people standing in front of the tv? There's a slight delay between the feed on the tv and them. I'm not talking about when they show the direct feed from the PSEye vs the in-game controller.

 

[jett]

More in-depth view of the E3 demo. Not really much new...
Just shows how precise it can be and how it's 1:1 in position and movements.

Try this:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/560/309.963

How can people say this is not accurate? Easily the most accurate of the three motion thingies.

 

[gofreak]

It was useful for me on two points:

1) after all that debate in the capcom thread I think that vid makes it very obvious that 'rotational pointing' works

2) a subtlety I didn't pick up on all before was the role of position in pointing, as in position in 3D space, something they were saying was unique to their solution. They didn't really explain this very well, but he was talking about how with like a laser pointer it can be difficult to write or draw because you're 'writing' on a surface some distance away...like painting with a two metre long brush or whatever. But if you know the 3D position, I guess they can relate your pointing to a virtual canvas right in front of the wand or something? So you get a result as if you're drawing right onto something directly in front of you, rather than 'drawing' on your TV screen 10 feet away or whatever? I thought that was interesting, something I didn't pick up on before...that would let you be way more accurate with things like drawing and writing etc. and I can sort of understand better now why they were making such a big deal out of that at E3 and how challenging writing was etc.

 

[Totobeni]

More in-depth view of the E3 demo. Not really much new...
Just shows how precise it can be and how it's 1:1 in position and movements.

Try this:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/560/309.963

in FPS mode he actually move ( using his feet ) I don't think that was analogue stick , but it worked fine I guess.

can someone gif that part ?

 

[SolidusDave]

in FPS mode he actually move ( using his feet ) I don't think that was analogue stick , but it worked fine I guess.

can someone gif that part ?

that only works in this tiny room, not a "normal" game. But they show in the same video that moving+pointing w/o analog sticks is no problem at all by using 2 of these things.

 

[gofreak]

that only works in this tiny room, not a "normal" game. But they show in the same video that moving+pointing w/o analog sticks is no problem at all by using 2 of these things.

Yeah in that case they locked translational movement to strafing and forward/back and rotation (omg?!) to pointing. Whilst it's doable I dunno if it would get confusing to map both to one stick...

However, two sticks could be a different matter. And then that raises the question that if a second stick can itself sub in for the traditional role of a analog stick...do you need to put an analog stick on it? Maybe this is why they're reluctant to confirm it yet.

The analog stick is really only going to be useful on the secondary wand, but if you can get full analog stick control with the wand's motion..it begs the question if you need it. (I dunno if it can sub in for that role comprehensively or not, but...if it can...)

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Awesome stuff, one more week until TGS right?

 

[cakefoo]

Well that depends on if it has good/fun games or not :lol

Fixed. That's really all it needs to have to convince me to spend money.

 

[mr_nothin]

Fixed. That's really all it needs to have to convince me to spend money.

Well I only see very basic games being made w/o the analog. It's the same thing that makes the Natal unattractive to me. You have to move a limb to move around. It's the same thing as that "move foot forward to go" crap that the natal uses.

Moving my arm forward/backwards and around for movement just seems so clumsy. It's like playing DDR with an FPS. Not to mention that it doesnt have feedback. When you let go of an analog it snaps back into it's starting position...you loose that when you use the 2nd controller as the analog stick. Unless you assign a button to reset the position, and that's starting to over complicate things.

 

[gofreak]

Well I only see very basic games being made w/o the analog. It's the same thing that makes the Natal unattractive to me. You have to move a limb to move around. It's the same thing as that "move foot forward to go" crap that the natal uses.

Moving my arm forward/backwards and around for movement just seems so clumsy. It's like playing DDR with an FPS. Not to mention that it doesnt have feedback. When you let go of an analog it snaps back into it's starting position...you loose that when you use the 2nd controller as the analog stick. Unless you assign a button to reset the position, and that's starting to over complicate things.

This is possibly the very debate they're having internally that's making them coy about it. They're probably having a back and forth on this.

That said, I don't think it's quite the same as "put one foot forward to move forward, one foot back" etc. And it could be done with hand movement/rotation, not full arm movement. Like, hold a pen in your hand, tip it forward to move forward, pull back to move back, tip to the left to move left, right to move right etc. It wouldn't have to be waving your arm all about to move. The point on position resets is a valid one though. And it wouldn't be EXACTLY the same as an analog stick, it wouldn't have exactly the same characteristics, I don't know if all the differences need necessarily be minuses...

I think this might be hitting on why they haven't confirmed the status of an analog stick on this thing though, for sure.

 

[Totobeni]

I dunno if this will work , but I guess in FPS mode they can map the run on one button on the wand ( just like Shenmue , when you press R trigger to walk/run ) , if you press button to run and move the wand to change your direction and position then it's alternative to an analog stick or 2nd wand.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

EA's Grand Slam Tennis to be the first game to use PS3 motion control

 

[gofreak]

I dunno if this will work , but I guess in FPS mode they can map the run on one button on the wand ( just like Shenmue , when you press R trigger to walk/run ) , if you press button to run and move the wand to change your direction and position then it's alternative to an analog stick or 2nd wand.

That means no running and shooting at the same time though. Might be OK for simpler stuff but I think you'd want a second wand (be it with or without an analog stick) for 'dual analog' style stuff.

 

[TTP]

EA's Grand Slam Tennis to be the first game to use PS3 motion control

You missed the question mark.

But this is likely.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

You missed the question mark.

But this is likely.

Well, the question mark was in the page title, "First Game To Use the PS3 Motion Control?" Then they come right out and say, "EA Sport's 'Grand Slam Tennis' will have the honour of heralding a new way of gaming when it debuts the Playstaion 3 Motion Control."

 

[cakefoo]

So you all think they're going to replace the analog stick with a tilt of the remote? That's like the old TGS '05 trailer where you flick upwards to make Mario jump. People knew it was a bad idea back then, so they axed it. Sony has never shown anything like that, so there's absolutely no reason to suspect that's their solution.

Why do people keep forgetting about the DS3? I highly doubt Sony's going to take a step back in controller interfacing. The standard controller can be held in your left hand resting in your lap or up against your hip while standing, while the motion controller sits in your right and acts as a sword, tennis racket, fire hose, cattle prod, paint brush, or whatever craziness they want to come up with.

 

[mr_nothin]

So you all think they're going to replace the analog stick with a tilt of the remote? That's like the old TGS '05 trailer where you flick upwards to make Mario jump. People knew it was a bad idea back then, so they axed it. Sony has never shown anything like that, so there's absolutely no reason to suspect that's their solution.

Why do people keep forgetting about the DS3? I highly doubt Sony's going to take a step back in controller interfacing. The standard controller can be held in your left hand resting in your lap or up against your hip while standing, while the motion controller sits in your right and acts as a sword, tennis racket, fire hose, cattle prod, paint brush, or whatever craziness they want to come up with.

$599

They have pulled some stuns before...

 

[Kaako]

Just saw the one posted today on PS blog. Good stuff, especially the paint demo and fire bone snakes!

 

[gofreak]

So you all think they're going to replace the analog stick with a tilt of the remote? That's like the old TGS '05 trailer where you flick upwards to make Mario jump.

It's not really. When you use a analog stick you basically tilt that stick around with your thumb. Mapping movement to another stick at a larger scale isn't the same as mapping a jump to that movement. It's more similar to what you're used to seeing with a analog stick that mapping a jump to a tilt...even if it's still different and has its own characteristics it's not as different as tilting to jump..

Not saying it would definitely be effective, but I'd like to try it to see.

As for DS3 with wand, I do think that's perfectly feasible, to take your right hand off the DS3 and pick up a wand. Others for some reason think the idea is laughable, but I think it could be workable.

 

[Jostifer]

They should make a new app for the XMB like pictochat for the DS (but with heaps of options, image export in various formats, collaborative drawing online..etc).

 

[Totobeni]

Why do people keep forgetting about the DS3? I highly doubt Sony's going to take a step back in controller interfacing. The standard controller can be held in your left hand resting in your lap or up against your hip while standing, while the motion controller sits in your right and acts as a sword, tennis racket, fire hose, cattle prod, paint brush, or whatever craziness they want to come up with.

DS+Wand combination will fail , Guncon+DS was bad and stupid, even Namco know that.

Wand need something like Guncon's 3 sub-grip but with Sixaxis motion-sensing.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

As for DS3 with wand, I do think that's perfectly feasible, to take your right hand off the DS3 and pick up a wand. Others for some reason think the idea is laughable, but I think it could be workable.

Workable, but it's likely to never be supported nor intentionally designed to be controlled in that fashion. Sony want these wands, above all, to help broaden their appeal, not create new default control schemes that are more complicated (manual dexterity-wise) than just using the standard DS3. Not everyone has the same size hands to hold the DS3 in that way, too. No, for Sony, I'm pretty sure that it's wand(s) control only with any upcoming PS Eye stuff as they don't want to complicate or confuse the message they're trying to get out with the new wands to begin with.

 

[gofreak]

I do agree with that Mighty, I think for simplicity's sake it's most likely that they won't 'mix and match' controllers.

However I wouldn't put it past a developer allowing a DS3 analog to be subbed in for a second wand's duties in that respect if they were 'emulating' analog movement control with a second stick. Not as the primary or 'promoted' control scheme for the game, but just as a untrumpeted option for those who might prefer that.

 

[cakefoo]

My point is, everyone knew they didn't need to replace the super-responsive buttons/sticks with a tilt or a flick, unless it actually makes the experience more fun, realistic, precise, and/or intuitive. Swinging a baseball bat? Yeah, that meets all those standards. Controlling where a character runs? It might be fun if you're wasted I guess, but... yeah.

 

[gofreak]

Well, I dunno if it makes it any less fun to control character movement by tilting a wand around vs tilting an analog stick around with my thumb...both seem similarly abstract.

I do see the problem of the absence of tension, there being no 'automatic neutral' etc. but whether these are dealbreakers or not, I'm not sure. It'd be interesting to try.

It's just a thought that crossed my mind watching that video, that the idea of the wand itself acting as a kind of analog stick in your left hand MIGHT be why they seem uncertain about adding an analog stick to the wand. In trying to think of reasons why they're being coy about it, this makes as much sense as anything else.

 

[MrPliskin]

Sony are missing a trick if they don't have buttons named "1", "2", "A" or "B". They should try to keep the design as pedestrian as possible.

I disagree. Consumers can still relate, shapes are just as easy to remember as letters and numbers.

I could get into design etc, but it's proven that shapes are just important to identifying an object as letters and numbers. I think it would be a huge mistake to use 1,2,a,b for a new controller, as opposed to triangle, square, circle, and cross.

Afterall, if they do that, then they potentially open up "that market" to a more 'serious' facet of gaming, and potentially expand their core audience.

 

[SolidusDave]

I remember playing Tomb Raider on PC with a joystick, a motion control moving system wouldn't be different at all.

Though I don't know if we will see any "normal" games developed especially for 2 wands (considering the package includes two but I would be surprised if not).
They bring in this motion control thing to allow casual game concepts just like the Wii does and I can't imagine which people they want to target with a standard PS3 game (like GoW, KZ etc.) but played with the new wands just so that you can swing Kratos swords manually or something (including a rather complex control scheme put on the wands, they want to achieve the exact opposite).

 

[Raist]

Part III is up:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/09/motion-controller-update-part-iii-deep-dive-into-the-e3-demo/


Dont know if i'm late or not :/

FPS and pointing is much more stable than during E3, nice.
The snake bit was cool :lol

 

[Jostifer]

FPS and pointing is much more stable than during E3, nice.

It's.. the same?

 

[blehh]

"Domino Snakes: Tails of Fire" confirmed.

 

[KillerAJD]

Again, I don't see the problem with having walking/running movements mapped to the face buttons, if there isn't an analog stick. You move with the face buttons (just like on a PC with WASD) and you aim with the wand. It would be weird with one wand, but with a second one, it would work perfectly. It might not be as smooth with other types of games, but with FPS's (which is what I'm most interested in) it would be fine.

 

[gofreak]

Ha, yeah, it's easy to forget you don't need an analog to 'replicate' wasd+mouse. But it should be acknowledged that it is slightly different to use 4 buttons with one thumb than using three fingers on a keyboard for wasd..

The other movement option if there is no analog stick is to treat the wand as a wireless, untethered 'joystick' in the air (as suggested out of that video). For couch play it's good that it's not tethered to a base, but on the downside you lose the 'auto centering' of a joystick (or analog stick).

Of course with an analog stick you have that plus all these other options too.

 

[Jostifer]

Movement alternatives:

Analog on Motion controller: Awesome. Games that require movement can also support dual-pointing since playing with 2x Motion controllers is now a true option.

Motion controller + DualShock 3: Works like a Wiimote + Nunchuck but less attractive and a 'hack' solution. No dual pointing.

2x Motion controllers where one is held vertically as a joystick: Horrible

Standing up and walking around the room: Horrible

WASD keyboard: A third controller device? You will also need a surface. And this is a console environment. No analog movement.

 

[Raist]

It's.. the same?

No, not at all. Compare both vids.

 

[gofreak]

Motion (with an analog stick) + dual-pointing is more horrible than anything else on your list

Motion (with analog stick) + single-pointing = OK. But I think asking the user to point and move with the same controller, analog stick or no, is going to be too much.

Anyway, an analog stick on the wand would be best since then you'd have the full range of options, it'd be the most versatile solution. But I'm not convinced of the 'horrible-ness' of the wand as a psuedo joystick thing for movement. I think that could work out even if it's inherently more effort than a analog stick (moving a hand vs a thumb)...

 

[Jostifer]

But I think asking the user to point and move with the same controller, analog stick or no, is going to be too much.

I agree. I meant more like how a developer could indulge themselves with a puzzle now and again that requires 'two hands' even if the left remote is mostly just used for analog stick movement.

 

[Massa]

Analog on Motion controller: Awesome. Games that require movement can also support dual-pointing since playing with 2x Motion controllers is now a true option.

In my opinion analog on motion controller = fail. Analog sticks work great if you don't have to move the controller but otherwise they're not really comfortable, as demonstrated by some PS3 games using the Sixaxis and some Wii games using the Nunchuk and analog stick at the same time.

There are other solutions as well they could adopt, I don't know why people are jumping the gun assuming what the controller will or will not have. Wait until the controller is shown, then wait until the games are shown. Mine is bought anyway even if just for Grand Slam Tennis.

 

[gofreak]

I agree. I meant more like how a developer could indulge themselves with a puzzle now and again that requires 'two hands' even if the left remote is mostly just used for analog stick movement.

Oh I see. Like if you are stopped, and wanna use the two wands for other things. Sure, that'd work.

For reasons like that and others, analog sticks would have all bases covered. Though I suppose you could do the same if 'forced' to use your second stick as a psuedo wireless joystick in the absence of a analog stick. Go from using it to move to using it as a second pointer in places.

But we'll see.

 

[mr_nothin]

Motion (with an analog stick) + dual-pointing is more horrible than anything else on your list

Motion (with analog stick) + single-pointing = OK. But I think asking the user to point and move with the same controller, analog stick or no, is going to be too much.

Anyway, an analog stick on the wand would be best since then you'd have the full range of options, it'd be the most versatile solution. But I'm not convinced of the 'horrible-ness' of the wand as a psuedo joystick thing for movement. I think that could work out even if it's inherently more effort than a analog stick (moving a hand vs a thumb)...

Ok...so how would the pseudo joystick be implemented? Would it be move forward/backward + strafe or would it be move forward/backward + turn? I'm guessing move forward/backward + strafe since the other wand would be used for turning, for the most part. Lets say you have the wand tilted (moved or whatever they opt for) forward and you're running forward and you want to stop and strafe. How would that be handled? Would you have to move the controller back to the original position and then to the left and right? Or does the controller automatically reset once you start moving the wand to the left or right?

How would you handle wanting to be able to stop moving forward and then strafe AND wanting to be able to move diagonally (strafe + moving forward) at the same time??? You'd have to add a button to reset the position and that adds another layer of unnecessary complication. Unless you make it where you have to move the controller back to the original position yourself...but then that probably gets a little touchy.

If you have it setup to always move in the direction that you're pointing then it gets clunky when you're trying to handle pointing and moving at the same time. Just try it with anything in your hands. It feels weird...which is probably why they had 1 person controlling movement with 1 wand and the other aiming with the other (in the demo).

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Man, I think a lot of you guys are far too concerned about how to translate a different interface into workable schemes for standard controller game types. From that angle, it's almost always going to end up as inferior for any alternative interface. Although there's plenty of opportunities for overlap and traditional game type controls to be augmented by alternative input, it still breaks down to alternative games for alternative interfaces as standard games are for standard interfaces.

Analog or similar controls on an already moving controller are difficult for a lot of people to deal with. Nunchuk on Wii works fine because, when you're focused on using the stick, you're also keeping it steady at your side or in your lap and not moving it at the same time for game purposes. Yeah, you could put a D-pad on the wand and use that while you move it physically, but I think there's a good reason why very few games outside of those that use that combination of input from the player (driving action games, specifically) take advantage of it...and that's because it confuses the action for most people asking you to be aware of directions controlled by your thumb and those directions that are controlled by your hands, arms, and body. For most people, the analog or D-pad control needs to be on a separate piece from the primary aiming and movement wand controlled by your favored hand. I would get used to the idea that the wands do not have analog sticks or button layouts to emulate cardinal directions...