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[travisbickle]

How about we compare evidence.

My evidence is that they came out yesterday confirming specs people said wouldn't even be possible on the Xbox One at all, what real evidence do you have?

I think people have been making comparisons between the two consoles and saying, because of the difference in power, a game that runs at 1080p 60fps flat out on PS4 might have to be scaled back for the One.

There's 1080p 60fps games this gen, we know the One will be capable.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm having trouble understanding why you think something somebody said in a PR video means that they cannot change it if push comes to shove.

I'm having trouble understand why you think they would come out and confirm these specs now when they've already started to "underclock" the hardware.

I think people have been making comparisons between the two consoles and saying, because of the difference in power, a game that runs at 1080p flat out on PS4 might have to be scaled back for the One.

There's 1080p 60fps games this gen.

None that look even close to the in-engine trailer of Forza 5 and that's comparing in-engine replays from GT5.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I must say this is the first for GAF; 1080p60fps = no downclock.

While I doubt that they will downclock the gpu, 1080p@60 does not imply they didn't do it. There are other things that can be compromised in order to reach a framerate/res target.

 

[Templar_Dante]

The entire idea of them underclocking the hardware right now just seems really silly.

The games are already being made based on set hardware and they've even confirmed Forza 5 at 1080p native and 60 fps, there is no possible way they've just decided all of a sudden. "let's underclock our hardware!"

If they run into problems, they will go down the 720P@60FPS route, but a HD7790@800mhz running that reveal trailer @1080P and 60FPS...was hard to believe in the first place..
I doubt we have seen legitamate Forza 5 footage yet. Whatever it looks like, they seem intent on 1080P and 60FPS...

 

[netBuff]

It was confirmed in-engine, so yes we know it was running on a Xbox One dev kit.

You're being deliberately obtuse with this one. We absolutely do not know, and evidence points to the contrary being true.

I'm having trouble understand why you think they would come out and confirm these specs now when they've already started to "underclock" the hardware.

What "specs"? The Forza team will just achieve 1080p60FPS with lower graphical fidelity if Microsoft decide to downclock their hardware: These numbers mean absolutely nothing.

What evidence do you have?

What evidence would you even need for that statement? That's just common sense.

 

[FordGTGuy]

While I doubt that they will downclock the gpu, 1080p@60 does not imply they didn't do it. There are other things that can be compromised in order to reach a framerate/res target.

Which is more likely?

This is just a baseless rumor or they managed to rework a entire engine they've been working on for two years and managed to remove enough stuff to get it to 1080p and 60fps?

 

[netBuff]

Which is more likely?

This is just a baseless rumor or they managed to rework a entire engine they've been working on for two years and managed to remove enough stuff to get it to 1080p and 60fps?

Again: We haven't seen any in-game footage so far, how can you even argue your point without knowing what Forza will look like?

 

[FordGTGuy]

If they run into problems, they will go down the 720P@60FPS route, but a HD7790@800mhz running that reveal trailer @1080P and 60FPS...was hard to believe in the first place..
I doubt we have seen legitamate Forza 5 footage yet. Whatever it looks like, they seem intent on 1080P and 60FPS...

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way Turn 10 is just going to come out and go oops 720p.

You're being deliberately obtuse with this one. We absolutely do not know, and evidence points to the contrary being true.

What "specs"? The Forza team will just achieve 1080p60FPS with lower graphical fidelity if Microsoft decide to downclock their hardware: These numbers mean absolutely nothing.

What evidence would you even need for that statement? That's just common sense.

1080p60fps native means nothing? What is that a joke?

Running in-engine on Xbox One dev kits:

Yep, they're real. Xbox boss Phil Spencer confirmed in an interview this afternoon that the footage you saw for Forza Motorsport 5 and Remedy's Quantum Break this morning are running on Xbox One dev kits. Not renders or some other trickery, you skeptics. I know some out there were questioning some of the screenshots and footage from this morning. Stop. They're the real deal.

http://www.destructoid.com/forza-5-quantum-break-footage-from-xbox-one-dev-kits-254220.phtml

Again: We haven't seen any in-game footage so far, how can you even argue your point without knowing what Forza will look like?

We can still compare in-engine to current gen in-engine and it's not even close.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

So we heard back from our semi-conductor sources overnight.

They all said the same thing, can't say specific to a single product, but anything that complex and large is bound to have yield issues. The last time one of them had a similar product to fabricate yields were below 30%.

Just to put this into perspective for people, I did a little quick calculation. (If anybody sees any glaring errors lemme know)

I tried to do a little measurement in photosho of what I thought the boundaries of the die under the spreader looked to be, and coated the results to some GPUs die sizes. I'm estimating this as though the APU is 20.5mmx20.5mm. I'm also assuming they're using a 300mm wafer.

With a kinda average setup, (4mm edge of exclusion, .08mm clearance all
around) you would get 133 chips at 100%. Let's say "less than 30%" is 29%.

If MS is paying $5000 a wafer, that's just over $130 per APU. Just for the silicon.

Ouch. Considering I'm putting the best possible construction on everything and the numbers get worse really quickly just by dropping that percentage a few points.

 

[netBuff]

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way Turn 10 is just going to come out and go oops 720p.



Running in-engine on Xbox One dev kits:



http://www.destructoid.com/forza-5-quantum-break-footage-from-xbox-one-dev-kits-254220.phtml

I'm sorry I'm not taking Phil Spencer's PR statement from the 21st as gospel when everything points to actual trickery having been involved.

I love that the article ends with "Nice. This system is a beast."

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Which is more likely?

This is just a baseless rumor or they managed to rework a entire engine they've been working on for two years and managed to remove enough stuff to get it to 1080p and 60fps?

Rework what? They can just change the internal rendering resolution to 900p and then scale it to 1080p. No one but the most hardcore will notice anyway.

 

[DC R1D3R]

Hang in there Ford. The wolves smell blood.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Nice, witty comprehensive summary, thanks Amir0x.

From the list I've been keeping you could add:

1. Region locked. (Not sure if it did get confirmed?)
2. Backwards compatibility. (Sorry if people don't think this is an issue, but with both the PS3 and 360 people have significant downloaded software, as well as discs.)
3. The dismissive attitude to BC. (Andriod, iOS, Windows and MacOS all accommodate BC. Consoles need to do this period.)

I still have questions about DLNA media sharing, and what audio/video formats this thing will support. No fan of AppleTV being so locked down on codecs or the PS3 restriction to FAT HDD format to restrict <2gb files, it would be another nail in the Xbone coffin if these things were similarly deficient.

I don't think that should be a problem. The xbone and ps4 are made from different architectures compared to the custom made ones for the xbox 360 and ps3.


BC would be very costly to them and the consumer (IMO)

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm sorry I'm not taking Phil Spencer's PR statement from the 21st as gospel when everything points to actual trickery having been involved.

I love that the article ends with "Nice. This system is a beast."

So basically what you're saying is that you won't accept evidence even if it's from a official source? He also confirmed that the Forza 5 in-engine trailer was a month old at the time.

Rework what? They can just change the internal rendering resolution to 900p and then scale it to 1080p. No one but the most hardcore will notice anyway.

They've already confirmed it's native 1080p.

would they have to rework an entire engine for that?

I can easily affect the number of frames I get by adjusting sliders in my games on my PC. There should be something similar to this in a development environment on console games.

I'm sure they just have sliders they can change.

...

 

[MasLegio]

Which is more likely?

This is just a baseless rumor or they managed to rework a entire engine they've been working on for two years and managed to remove enough stuff to get it to 1080p and 60fps?

would they have to rework an entire engine for that?

I can easily affect the number of frames I get by adjusting sliders in my games on my PC. There should be something similar to this in a development environment on console games.

 

[Templar_Dante]

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way Turn 10 is just going to come out and go oops 720p.



1080p60fps native means nothing? What is that a joke?

Running in-engine on Xbox One dev kits:



http://www.destructoid.com/forza-5-quantum-break-footage-from-xbox-one-dev-kits-254220.phtml



We can still compare in-engine to current gen in-engine and it's not even close.

Ask Phil Spencer if the UI demo was real too...

Which is more likely?

This is just a baseless rumor or they managed to rework a entire engine they've been working on for two years and managed to remove enough stuff to get it to 1080p and 60fps?

A downclock wouldnt need to "rewrite the engine" they would just downscale certain aspects. However, I am still convinced what we saw at the Xbone reveal was a pre-rended Forza 4 Autovista model...
We're yet to see ingame footage. That was pre-rendered.

 

[-Amon-]

Sure, but prepare for shrinking budgets and fewer big budget releases. Which kind of defeats the purpose of a powerful games machine in the first place, if not enough money can be invested into taking advantage of the hardware.

Wiiu generation then ?

 

[QaaQer]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Xbox-One-APU-Jaguar-Radeon-Next-Generation,22726.html

phase-change thermal interface material, neat stuff. For those that don't know, it is a metal alloy that turns liquid at around 90°C. It is, afaik, the best thermal material you can use between cpu/apu heatspreader and heatsink. If they are using that though, it says to me they are pushing the envelope as far as the need to dissipate heat because it is so much harder to deal with and so much more expensive than conventional TIM.

I used that kind of material on my 875k (indigo extreme brand), I had to heat my $300+ cpu to 90+ degrees to get to the phase change. Tense, but fun.

Still using that cpu & TIM, btw, and with Haswell being a dud as far as desktop CPUs go, it'll probably be good for another couple years.

 

[SToRM]

Has this been posted yet? MS is now even using pictures from PS4 games to promote the XBone: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...8862149.129550.476245352401828&type=1&theater

But my guess is someone made a huge mistake

 

[twobear]

I'm having trouble understand why you think they would come out and confirm these specs now when they've already started to "underclock" the hardware.

This isn't an argument; this is you insisting that a PR video is logical proof that MS haven't downclocked the Xbone. For all you know they've targeted lower specs all along, or the game looks worse than it did at reveal.

 

[CLEEK]

The entire idea of them underclocking the hardware right now just seems really silly.

The games are already being made based on set hardware and they've even confirmed Forza 5 at 1080p native and 60 fps, there is no possible way they've just decided all of a sudden. "let's underclock our hardware!"

Two failures to your logic.

The first is, dev kits arent final hardware. As far as I know, neither MS or Sony have released final dev kits (someone correct me if Im wrong). Until final hardware is released, specs are not set in stone. Launch games get tweaked like crazy in the final few weeks once devs know final hardware capabilities.

The second is that MS wont downclock on a whim, but would do so when faced with real, unavoidable manufacturing issues on the production line. Like Sony gimping the Cell to meet release volumes.

Oh yeah, and in-engine doesn't mean in-game. GT5's photo mode is in-engine, but the actual game looks no where near as good. If the Forza footage was in-game, they would have said in-game.

 

[Whiteshirt]

This isn't an argument; this is you insisting that a PR video is logical proof that MS haven't downclocked the Xbone. For all you know they've targeted lower specs all along, or the game looks worse than it did at reveal.

That what makes his argument so confusing. Now it can be true that Microsoft won't downclock their APU's GPU but how would he know what it has/hasn't been downclocked if Microsoft hasn't really officially announced the clock speed of their hardware. They've been pretty coy about actual specs, hence the 5 billion transistor comment. The most we've got out of them was that the GPU has 768 shader cores, which has nothing to do with clock speed unless we're automatically assuming its a HD7790.

Using an actual PR video to say that they have/haven't downclocked their GPU is utterly confusing unless they specifically mentioned what clock speed their system was running at.

 

[ElTorro]

So basically what you're saying is that you won't accept evidence even if it's from a official source? He also confirmed that the Forza 5 in-engine trailer was a month old at the time.

This is also in-engine and running on actual PS3 hardware. No trickery, just game assets and the game's actual rendering pipeline:

http://www.gtplanet.net/66-stunning-gran-turismo-5-screenshots-18-megapixels/

Only that it does not look that good during gameplay.

Of course, you can use the game's rendering pipeline on the target hardware to render photos/sequences that look awesome but are not real-time and, thus, do not represent the actual game.

Mind you, I am not skeptical because of XBone hate, I am just skeptical because every single racing game has made the same statements and has shown the same awesome screenshots/sequences. Things start to look different when you change to the actual gameplay.

Of course, Forza 5 will look great and way better than current gen. But people should just stop being non-skeptical with non-live-gameplay footage, especially when generalizing and comparing system performances based on that.

 

[Guymelef]

Ask Phil Spencer if the UI demo was real too...

.

 

[JaseC]

I'm sure they just have sliders they can change.

...

The point is that a GPU downclock would not in any way necessitate a significant reworking of T10's engine; they're scalable by design. If you'd prefer to take MS at its word that the Forza 5 and Quantum Break trailers were rendered in real-time on developer kits, that's all well and good as currently there's no concrete evidence to the contrary, but you probably shouldn't speak so condescendingly on things you yourself do not understand.

 

[bidguy]

i can actually see this happening.
allthough i dont really care as long as the bluray drive is still there.
im more of a movie guy anyway.

 

[CLEEK]

I cant believe that in 2013, some people still don't know the difference between in-engine and in-game. Folks like FordGTGuy are the reason that bullshots still exist.

 

[kitch9]

If they run into problems, they will go down the 720P@60FPS route, but a HD7790@800mhz running that reveal trailer @1080P and 60FPS...was hard to believe in the first place..
I doubt we have seen legitamate Forza 5 footage yet. Whatever it looks like, they seem intent on 1080P and 60FPS...

1280x1080 is classed as 1080p you know......

 

[c0de]

I cant believe that in 2013, some people still don't know the difference between in-engine and in-game. Folks like FordGTGuy are the reason that bullshots still exist.

Seems especially famous for games he doesn't play because it's not MS' games...

 

[DangerousDave]

I cant believe that in 2013, some people still don't know the difference between in-engine and in-game. Folks like FordGTGuy are the reason that bullshots still exist.

This.

In-engine simply means that the video has been rendered using the game engine, instead of doing externally with 3DStudio Max.

But the video can be recorded at 1 fps each second, showing graphics and effects that are not able to be reproduced ingame at 60 fps.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Oh my, thats quite a jump you are making.

CBoat: MS has an EA exclusive
Xbone guys: Yay! Hnngg *explode*

CBoat: Yo, that Kinect demo was faked
Xbone guys: Pfft, we knew that.

CBoat: Yo, MS be having some issues
Xbone guys: Lies, we saw that in-engine 1080p60fps trailer

Just need to let them have it. I remember all the WiiU truthfacts that were out there. Yet everytime their hero, Virgil, released some politically correct statement about WiiU, they took it as proof that everyone was delusional and had agendas.

 

[Impeccable]

I'm sure they just have sliders they can change.

...

Awwwwwwwwwwww :x

 

[c0de]

The first is, dev kits arent final hardware. As far as I know, neither MS or Sony have released final dev kits (someone correct me if Im wrong). Until final hardware is released, specs are not set in stone. Launch games get tweaked like crazy in the final few weeks once devs know final hardware capabilities.

This looked quite fixed:

The second is that MS wont downclock on a whim, but would do so when faced with real, unavoidable manufacturing issues on the production line. Like Sony gimping the Cell to meet release volumes.

The manufacturing issues are especially a problem if you don't have enough money

Spoiler

(or you don't want to spend the money but a downclock would kill the system so I highly doubt they will do it - they wait until process ripens)

.

 

[RiverBed]

In 5 days, we'll know the real sources from the sheep.

 

[Septimius]

PS3 can do 1080p60, Xbone is absolutely capable of it even with the lowered clocks. The question is, if they did drop the clockspeed, would they cut res and keep the effects or cut effects and keep the res.

I don't need to present evidence because I'm not arguing that they've cut the clockspeed, only that they could. You need to present much stronger evidence that they haven't or they couldn't.

Yes, and Xbone can render a black screen 60 times a second with a resolution at 1080p.

Personally, I think they'd down resolution and keep effects. Because it's much easier to sell effects to most gamers.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Some of you should be reminded that most in-game or in-engine trailers shown during conventions like E3 is usually not how the final version will look like especially for launch games.
Usually the games will look worse as developers starts to cut corners in order to have it release on time.
Also, stuff like under clocking to get more yields happens a lot more than you realise.

 

[Glorified G]

I must say this is the first for GAF; 1080p60fps = no downclock.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but down clocking the gpu would have nothing to do with frame rate or resolution. It's a choice by the devs.

RR7 had 1080p and 60fps 7 years ago on the ps3.

 

[Septimius]

In 5 days, we'll know the real sources from the sheep.

How will we? It's not like MS will come out and say they're having yield problems, or that they're down-clocking. We'll probably know nothing new, come E3.

 

[Templar_Dante]

Just need to let them have it. I remember all the WiiU truthfacts that were out there. Yet everytime their hero, Virgil, released some politically correct statement about WiiU, they took it as proof that everyone was delusional and had agendas.

Xbone Confirmation Bias (XCB)

Relating to being emoionally invested in a games console, People display this bias
when they gather or remember information
selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased
way . The effect is stronger for emotionally
charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

How will we? It's not like MS will come out and say they're having yield problems, or that they're down-clocking. We'll probably know nothing new, come E3.

"Power of the cloud" is their attack and defence until Digital Foundry and a teardown reveals the truth.

 

[c0de]

Yes, and Xbone can render a black screen 60 times a second with a resolution at 1080p.

Damn, Xbone can't do anything that PS4 can't...

 

[c0de]

Some of you should be reminded that most in-game or in-engine trailers shown during conventions like E3 is usually not how the final version will look like especially for launch games.
Usually the games will look worse as developers starts to cut corners in order to have it release on time.
Also, stuff like under clocking to get more yields happens a lot more than you realise.

Killzone says hello (E3, 2k5).

 

[FlutterPuffs]

This looked quite fixed:

The manufacturing issues are especially a problem if you don't have enough money

Spoiler

(or you don't want to spend the money but a downclock would kill the system so I highly doubt they will do it - they wait until process ripens)

.

That's most likely not the moss production model though. I don't think any of the 2 companies have started mass production yet.

Killzone says hello (E3, 2k5).

Which one was shown during E3 2k5? The target render or the in-game demo?

Anyway, yes some games do look better (god of war 3) comes to mind but launch games are usually the opossite.

 

[JaseC]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but down clocking the gpu would have nothing to do with frame rate or resolution. It's a choice by the devs.

RR7 had 1080p and 60fps 7 years ago on the ps3.

Sure, compromises could be made to facilitate 1080p60, but his post was in reference to FordGTGuy alleging that Forza 5 (reportedly) being 1080p60 is proof positive that the downclock isn't happening.

 

[c0de]

That's most likely not the moss production model though. I don't think any of the 2 companies have started mass production yet.

I think the final mainboard will pretty much like this.

 

[Nachtmaer]

How will we? It's not like MS will come out and say they're having yield problems, or that they're down-clocking. We'll probably know nothing new, come E3.

Considering how they've been trying to avoid giving hard facts about their hardware, we probably never will.

 

[Glorified G]

Sure, compromises could be made to facilitate 1080p60, but his post was in reference to FordGTGuy alleging that the game being 1080p60 is proof positive that the downclock isn't happening.

ok, I wasn't too sure who he was referencing.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Seems especially famous for games he doesn't play because it's not MS' games...

Is this supposed to imply that Microsoft Studios' games and other games on the Xbox platform haven't ever been guilty of bullshotting?

...

 

[ElTorro]

Considering how they've been trying to avoid giving hard facts about their hardware, we probably never will.

This. Hell, we even know nothing official about Wii U, and that thing is over half a year old.

If you can't brag with it, keep it to yourself.

 

[Drachma]

This is still just a rumour(One I do not believe for a second). It's not worth anyone losing their shit over either way.

 

[c0de]

Is this supposed to imply that Microsoft Studios' games and other games on the Xbox platform haven't ever been guilty of bullshotting?

...

no.