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[NullPointer]

And then what? If we want nice AAA graphics and high quality content on this scale we now expect, we have to come to terms with companies seeking new ways to monetize. Game development is expensive and gets more and more expensive. Asking who's responsible for this is meaningless and I don't think the answer is as clear as you would want it to be.

You're talking about a game with a full priced edition, a deluxe edition, an ultimate edition, a premium VIP product, and a slew of premium car passes. Its already swimming in upsells, and thats for a game that's been built upon existing foundations, with iterative changes and improvements, not something built from scratch.

I just don't go with your argument that this is required for nice AAA graphics and high quality content. Where we fully agree is in MS doing this because it works and because the upside potential is enormous, but that's an entirely different argument and justification.

 

[Maintenance]

Without the free to play economy I'd imagine Forza and many other games to lack content and features we and the average consumer expect from those games nowadays.

Other games that are much smaller managed it so far, so yeah, no.

Same genre even.

 

[wumster3000]

WTF isup with Turn 10 having to wait until backlash to fix shit? Didn’t something like this happen last year?

 

[DJ_Lae]

Ah, good to hear they're fixing the VIP rewards.

I just noticed they had a little 'appreciation' message with 1m credits and some cars and figured that was just them trying to buy VIPs off with a tiny bit of goodwill.

It shouldn't have had to come to this anyway.

 

[GHG]

And then what? If we want nice AAA graphics and high quality content on this scale we now expect, we have to come to terms with companies seeking new ways to monetize. Game development is expensive and gets more and more expensive. Asking who's responsible for this is meaningless and I don't think the answer is as clear as you would want it to be.


I don't want any of this but it doesn't matter. These loot boxes work. As long as they work, companies will implement them. That's how the market works.

Without the free to play economy I'd imagine Forza and many other games to lack content and features we and the average consumer expect from those games nowadays.

That's defeating the purpose, sadly. The goal here is to potential make limitless money. Not to just have a higher revenue ceiling. And just to be clear, I'm not cheerleading for any of this. But that's just how this business works.

What so it's now consumers fault that these companies budgets are getting out of control?

If they want/need to extract extra money from consumers then there are right ways to go about it. Praying on vulnerable and naive people (and children) through phycological manipulation is not one of those.

It's disgusting and should not be supported in any way.

And for the record, if this was a budget issue, considering the way that Microsoft operate, Turn 10 would have been killed of years ago before they even got the opportunity to do this shit.

 

[Mr. Mister]

To be clear. They will always apologize if they went to far to fast. But they gotcha. You’ll eventually pay whatever they ask

In five years remember this.

 

[vg260]

That's defeating the purpose, sadly. The goal here is to potential make limitless money. Not to just have a higher revenue ceiling. And just to be clear, I'm not cheerleading for any of this. But that's just how this business works.

I get it. I know their business is making money, but we shouldn't just shrug off predatory practices with "that's just how business works". The fact that it works should not be enough to give them a pass.

 

[oti]

You're talking about a game with a full priced edition, a deluxe edition, an ultimate edition, a premium VIP product, and a slew of premium car passes. Its already swimming in upsells, and thats for a game that's been built upon existing foundations, with iterative changes and improvements, not something built from scratch.

I just don't go with your argument that this is required for nice AAA graphics and high quality content. Where we fully agree is in MS doing this because it works and because the upside potential is enormous, but that's an entirely different argument and justification.

Are you saying that a company is already upselling your their product enough so they shouldn't upsell it more? We're talking about a company here. And again. Loot boxes mean limitless revenue. That's the whole point here.

To the other point, companies will always seek better ways to make this business more worth it for them. If they didn't, they could just leave the market. In that sense this is nessecary for them. I have a hard time imagining some of today's AAA games without those loot box mechanics. The prolonged content support, the better graphics and so on. And people expect more and more. Look at Destiny 2. That game offers something like 30h of super high quality content and people still expect more.

What so it's now consumers fault that these companies budgets are getting out of control?

If they want/need to extract extra money from consumers then there are right ways to go about it. Praying on vulnerable and naive people (and children) through phycological manipulation is not one of those.

It's disgusting and should not be supported in any way.

It is disgusting. But as long as it works and it is legal, it will never go away. The only other option would be if bored rich people decided video games weren't interesting anymore so they'd stop buying FIFA FUT packs and other loot boxes. But we can't tell them how to spend their money.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Without the free to play economy I'd imagine Forza and many other games to lack content and features we and the average consumer expect from those games nowadays.

GT Sport is coming out with no microtransactions and no loot boxes despite the nature of it with its online focus.

Like I said, I'm not buying this "features" thing. They're already making money off the game and season passes and limited editions and everything else, adding gambling and FTP transactions to their full priced game is greed, nothing more.

 

[Liliana Eileen]

Fuckin a right you're gonna change it back. We will fuck you up.

Lmao 😂

 

[GHG]

Are you saying that a company is already upselling your their product enough so they shouldn't upsell it more? We're talking about a company here. And again. Loot boxes mean limitless revenue. That's the whole point here.

To the other point, companies will always seek better ways to make this business more worth it for them. If they didn't, they could just leave the market. In that sense this is nessecary for them. I have a hard time imagining some of today's AAA games without those loot box mechanics. The prolonged content support, the better graphics and so on. And people expect more and more. Look at Destiny 2. That game offers something like 30h of super high quality content and people still expect more.



It is disgusting. But as long as it works and it is legal, it will never go away. The only other option would be if bored rich people decided video games weren't interesting anymore so they'd stop buying FIFA FUT packs and other loot boxes. But we can't tell them how to spend their money.

Considering the fact that this is currently "legal" do you believe that as a first step it should be regulated?

 

[wol93]

#4theplayers

Spoiler

lol

 

[oti]

I get it. I know their business is making money, but we shouldn't just shrug off predatory practices with "that's just how business works". The fact that it works should not be enough to give them a pass.

I'm not telling you to give them a pass. Give them hell if that's your opinion. I'm just being a bit more pragmatic about it. This is how today's market works and as long as there isn't something like regulation stopping this it won't stop. The other way would be the loot box economy imploding. But that's not on us. That's on rich people paying hundreds of Euros every month for this stuff. As long as they continue to do so we can't do anything to stop loot boxes.

GT Sport is coming out with no microtransactions and no loot boxes despite the nature of it with its online focus.

Like I said, I'm not buying this "features" thing. They're already making money off the game and season passes and limited editions and everything else, adding gambling and FTP transactions to their full priced game is greed, nothing more.

Calling a company greedy makes no sense, sorry. I know that's what youtubers like to do and all, but it still doesn't make sense.

In the case of Gran Turismo that is really interesting. Really curious how it will do. I'm sure Sony's investors won't be too happy about it not having loot boxes.

Considering the fact that this is currently "legal" do you believe that as a first step it should be regulated?

I would love for the government to step in. This is gambling. Plain and simple.

 

[GHG]

I'm not telling you to give them a pass. Give them hell if that's your opinion. I'm just being a bit more pragmatic about it. This is how today's market works and as long as there isn't something like regulation stopping this it won't stop. The other way would be the loot box economy imploding. But that's not on us. That's on rich people paying hundreds of Euros every month for this stuff. As long as they continue to do so we can't do anything to stop loot boxes.



Calling a company greedy makes no sense, sorry. I know that's what youtubers like to do and all, but it still doesn't make sense.

In the case of Gran Turismo that is really interesting. Really curious how it will do. I'm sure Sony's investors won't be too happy about it not having loot boxes.

The problem is it's not just rich people who are spending lots of money on these lootboxes. People who can't afford it are also ploughing money into them. That's how gambling and addiction work.

 

[vg260]

The problem is it's not just rich people who are spending lots of money on these lootboxes. People who can't afford it are also ploughing money into them. That's how gambling and addiction work.

That and it also hurts the game experience itself.

I prefer to enjoy playing a game where I don't feel like I'm being subjected to gross psychological manipulation.

 

[oti]

The problem is it's not just rich people who are spending lots of money on these lootboxes. People who can't afford it are also ploughing money into them. That's how gambling and addiction work.

That's the ethical side of things and that's an important conversation to have. I can't contribute more to it than just saying that I don't like loot boxes. I've studied Business Administration so the pragmatic market side of this conversation is more up my alley.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Calling a company greedy makes no sense, sorry. I know that's what youtubers like to do and all, but it still doesn't make sense.

In the case of Gran Turismo that is really interesting. Really curious how it will do. I'm sure Sony's investors won't be too happy about it not having loot boxes.

Making a profit is one thing, targeting addictions and addictive personalities is greed because, ultimately, that's where this ends up and the sooner it's accepted as gambling the better off people will be. Forza 7 is rated 3+ by PEGI. There's Pokemon games with a 12+ rating because of casinos in the game because gambling carries a minimum 12 rating on the PEGI system because loot boxes and the like aren't seen as gambling.

 

[Mr. Mister]

The problem is it's not just rich people who are spending lots of money on these lootboxes. People who can't afford it are also ploughing money into them. That's how gambling and addiction work.

Ohh those people. Nevermind them - justt give the money up.

It’s so gross.

 

[Hoo-doo]

LOL yeah right. Listen guys, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was all planned from the beginning. This is just their way of getting the Forza franchise more exposure.

Sucks for those of you who jumped the gun and requested a refund. It pays to have a little patience. I bought the Ultimate Edition and just sat quietly observing from the sidelines.

Yeah, I guess they totally planned for having their game get shit on by nearly everyone. And honestly, this feels like a band-aid on a gaping wound.

Good tht they are doing something here, but the cancerous F2P lootcrate mechanics remain ever pervasive in the game.

 

[oti]

Yeah, I guess they totally planned for having their game get shit on by nearly everyone. And honestly, this feels like a band-aid on a gaping wound.

Good tht they are doing something here, but the cancerous F2P lootcrate mechanics remain ever pervasive in the game.

I saw the wide array of loot box options in the Giant Bomb QL and was immediately saddened by it. It's like window shopping for loot box addicts.

 

[Slayer-33]

Peeps getting reversed psychology'd into buying VIP passes? 🤣

 

[chrominance]

Not gonna lie, the tiered cars bother me a lot more than the VIP rewards. You seriously can't buy any car you want so long as you have the credits? What possible reason would Turn 10 have to do this besides greed?

 

[vg260]

I'm not telling you to give them a pass. Give them hell if that's your opinion. I'm just being a bit more pragmatic about it. This is how today's market works and as long as there isn't something like regulation stopping this it won't stop. The other way would be the loot box economy imploding. But that's not on us. That's on rich people paying hundreds of Euros every month for this stuff. As long as they continue to do so we can't do anything to stop loot boxes.

Unless customers actively speak out, it is giving them a pass. So is "it's just business" and "that's not on us". How is this ever going to get regulated or reigned in unless it becomes a bigger topic?

 

[Poster#1]

Good. MS is getting so fucking greedy with MTX in their games.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Peeps getting reversed psychology'd into buying VIP passes? 🤣

Also this. Extending a tiny olive branch to the suckers who already paid a premium and changing nothing for the majority of people who paid 60-70$ for the base game. This 'fix' rings incredibly hollow.

 

[Brandon F]

Been a fan since the first game(the driving game that finally convinced me to buy a wheel and give sim racing a real chance!), but this has left such a rotten taste, alongside the loot progression complaints, that I am passing this game up regardless. Good to see them not continue to be pricks in the face of an obvious scam, but the decision making on this game was led by pricks nonetheless. Hardly feels like the same team that built a racing franchise I gladly would spends hundreds extra on peripherals to fully appreciate.

This should have been an event release in a year already full of them, but instead it’s legacy will be the near sham it was and the backpedal apology. Heartbreaking as someone that spent dozens of hours crafting liveries in Forza 2 and trying to self-build a dedicated wheel stand for F3 and 4.

 

[wapplew]

Good, MS always listen and react to feed back quick.

 

[GHG]

Good, MS always listen and react to feed back quick.

It would be much nicer if it didn't have to be this way though.

 

[IISANDERII]

This is a business.

It's more like a gambling operation now with this "business" only as a front.

 

[oti]

Unless customers actively speak out, it is giving them a pass. So is "it's just business" and "that's not on us". How is this ever going to get regulated or reigned in unless it becomes a bigger topic?

Call your representative, start an online petition. That could actually maybe change things. Liking a YouTube video or posting on GAF about it? Not so much.

This right now is Turn 10/Microsoft trying to see how far they can go. They scale it back down after the feedback, which is fine. But it won't change anything about loot boxes.

 

[gotoadgo]

"We thought you guys were dumber than you actually are. Sorry, we'll change everything back now please don't be too mad and keep buying our loot boxes!"

Ugh..

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

.

But that's just how this business works.

Then hopefully they go out of business.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Good, MS always listen and react to feed back quick.

How about they listen to the vast majority of people who haven't bought into the ultimate edition. I mean, they aren't touching the core game at all here, it's still festering with the exact same issues.

 

[Duchess O'Death]

Good, MS always listen and react to feed back quick.

Always?

 

[Kusagari]

Seems like MS just does this shit intentionally with Forza now.

 

[NullPointer]

Not gonna lie, the tiered cars bother me a lot more than the VIP rewards. You seriously can't buy any car you want so long as you have the credits? What possible reason would Turn 10 have to do this besides greed?

You can see it in action here in the Giant Bomb Quicklook (PC version).

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAXOp9MIPVg&t=2m14s[/URL]

Starts at 2:14 if the link doesn't take you right to it.

Cars acquired through the random prize crates circumvent this limitation.

 

[GHG]

Call your representative, start an online petition. That could actually maybe change things. Liking a YouTube video or posting on GAF about it? Not so much.

This right now is Turn 10/Microsoft trying to see how far they can go. They scale it back down after the feedback, which is fine. But it won't change anything about loot boxes.

Are you fucking kidding me?

They have literally just changed something in the game based on online feedback from message boards and social media feedback but yet you're saying it won't change anything?

If anything, in the current day these methods of making your voice heard are more effective than any petition could ever be. Social media opinions spread like wildfire when they are being reinforced by millions of people. Pretty soon after that an opinion is formed in the community and that opinion then becomes fact. People then start discussing it in real life; "did you hear about xxxx?", "Oh you didn't hear about xxxx? Let me tell you, come have a look at this..."

That's how the world works today. There is very little separation now between what happens on the internet and how that impacts on real life interactions and decisions. No company enjoys being dragged through the mud online and if they see it happening they will take steps to change it.

You want to see a recent example of that? Look no further than the shit Microsoft attempted to pull at the Xbox One reveal and how long it took for them to shake the negative reputation. They are still suffering from it today in some parts of the world.

Do you think Turn 10 want to get this negative reputation they are currently developing with everything they have done with this iteration of Forza? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what that will mean for future (and current) sales for the franchise.

 

[Recall]

This is a business. Companies need to make more money in order to be interested in this all sorts of broken AAA market and engage with it. Loot boxes are here to stay.

Profit margins. The only reason any business ever exists.

 

[oti]

Are you fucking kidding me?

They have literally just changed something in the game based on online feedback from message boards and social media feedback but yet you're saying it won't change anything?

If anything, in the current day these methods of making your voice heard are more effective than any petition could ever be. Social media opinions spread like wildfire when they are being reinforced by millions of people. Pretty soon after that an opinion is formed in the community and that opinion then becomes fact. People then start discussing it in real life; "did you hear about xxxx?", "Oh you didn't hear about xxxx? Let me tell you, come have a look at this..."

That's how the world works today. There is very little separation now between what happens on the internet and how that impacts on real life interactions and decisions. No company enjoys being dragged through the mud online and if they see it happening they will take steps to change it.

You want to see a recent example of that? Look no further than the shit Microsoft attempted to pull at the Xbox One reveal and how long it took for them to shake the negative reputation. They are still suffering from it today in some parts of the world.

We're talking about loot boxes here. The whole conversation started with a poster saying they should get rid of loot boxes next. Yeah, not happening. Companies won't give up a monetization mechanic that just works. Shouting YouTubers won't change that. People who make up the vast majority of loot box revenue don't care about YouTubers and online reactions.

 

[GHG]

We're talking about loot boxes here. The whole conversation started with a poster saying they should get rid of loot boxes next. Yeah, not happening. Companies won't give up a monetization mechanic that just works. Shouting YouTubers won't change that. People who make up the vast majority of loot box revenue don't care about YouTubers and online reactions.

So do you think they will be able to be profitable when in the future they will only be selling the game to the gambling addicts while everyone else moves on to a game that doesn't attempt to fuck with them at every single opportunity?

 

[watdaeff4]

So do you think they will be able to be profitable when in the future they will only be selling the game to the gambling addicts while everyone else moves on to a game that doesn't attempt to fuck with them at every single opportunity?

Depends on how much the gambling addicts spend and how much profit they get from it all.

MS is going the way of loot boxes for the short-term at least. Halo 5 and Gears 4 had them too (just named differently). Those were relegated just to MP P2W. Now they are dipping their toe into SP P2W

 

[Sjefen]

I wonder how many refunds it took to make this happen?

 

[Heshinsi]

I have no god damn clue why they thought people wouldn’t complain about their initial change. Who on earth decided that was a good idea? Thanks for changing the perks back to what it was before.

 

[MouldyK]

I don’t get people who complain about how because you can get cars higher than your tier level from Boxes, it’s designed around Loot Boxes...

...it really ain’t that hard to get to Tier 5 anyway. It would take you a day or two. I’m sure people won’t spend money on Microtransactions in that day.

But yes, Loot Box only cars suck.

 

[NullPointer]

I wonder how many refunds it took to make this happen?

And how many people at Turn 10 expected this response. There had to be some, if not many.

Change, even when positive, leads to gnashing of teeth for change's sake, but this was a purpose built regression.

I don't get people who complain about how because you can get cars higher than your tier level from Boxes, it's designed around Loot Boxes...

Because its designed around loot boxes. You got it.

 

[oti]

So do you think they will be able to be profitable when in the future they will only be selling the game to the gambling addicts while everyone else moves on to a game that doesn't attempt to fuck with them at every single opportunity?

Those are quite a few assumptions your're making here. "Everyone else" won't move on to games that don't have lootboxes. It's not just "gambling addicts" that buy those games. If they don't get the balancing right publishers will be punished. If Shadow of War comes out and in the end all the uproar was for nothing, since they are 100% optional, it will work out just fine.

Here's the inconvenient truth of it all: Those people who do buy a lot of loot boxes generate WAY more revenue for publishers than we do. Even those who buy Special Editions and Season Passes.

 

[Heshinsi]

I don’t get people who complain about how because you can get cars higher than your tier level from Boxes, it’s designed around Loot Boxes...

...it really ain’t that hard to get to Tier 5 anyway. It would take you a day or two. I’m sure people won’t spend money on Microtransactions in that day.

But yes, Loot Box only cars suck.

Making the credit bonuses be a limited use thing was scummy as fuck.

 

[MouldyK]

Because its designed around loot boxes. You got it.

Yes and I got to Level 5 through only getting the Level Up cars and 300,000CR Loot Box...

That’s by far a longer way than buying your own cars, especially when the cars I got were never worth 300,000.

Making the credit bonuses be a limited use thing was scummy as fuck.

Also never used mine. Granted they gave me 6 times as much Mod Packs as they should have for Loyalty, but I always felt the Car Tier System is fine since it goes quick.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I'm not sure how to stop loot boxes system anymore when many big games include this feature, plus more and more people keep throwing money in it.
Yeah this is gambling, and it seems most people love gambling lol.

Maybe like above said, when people start feeling gambling is boring, then it will stop.

 

[Lothars]

Well I guess it’s good they changed it but fuck turn 10, they have really made the forza series down a pretty bad path and it makes me worried about how they are going to mess up forza horizon 4. I’m hoping they leave it alone when it is released.

Seems like MS just does this shit intentionally with Forza now.

of course they are. They want to see how far they can screw up the franchise before fans revolt.