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UDK Thread: Unreal Development Kit

(._.)

Banned
Stallion Free said:
Why doesn't the guy link to the files for that level? Do I have to be a member on the forum to see them?

Yeah, I'm guessing the scene/level uploaded will have all his assets he used when opened in UDK. Speaking of which how easy is it to make a quick build from the game scene/level in UDK? I still haven't used this much yet. Mainly focusing on Unity3D which I have a solid understanding of.
 

Mik2121

Member
Here's something I did right now during a short work break (~15 minutes). I did the marble textures using two image sources. It only has diffuse and normal maps. The specular is done within the UDK material editor.

FZmYi.png
 

Blizzard

Banned
It would appear that you too are having a few issues with shadows? Lightmass or not, as far as I know I cannot find ANY way to get clean shadows without using a dominant light. And with those you're supposed to either use one per level or make absolutely sure that two of them don't touch the same surface, apparently.

I feel like baking should be able to do it, but Lightmass seems to produce blotchy, blobby, or stairstep shadows...maybe people with clean shadows used one of the high-end external tools to bake the lightmaps?

Apparently it might even be possible to do baking in Blender, but I haven't experimented with it yet.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
It would appear that you too are having a few issues with shadows? Lightmass or not, as far as I know I cannot find ANY way to get clean shadows without using a dominant light. And with those you're supposed to either use one per level or make absolutely sure that two of them don't touch the same surface, apparently.

I feel like baking should be able to do it, but Lightmass seems to produce blotchy, blobby, or stairstep shadows...maybe people with clean shadows used one of the high-end external tools to bake the lightmaps?

Apparently it might even be possible to do baking in Blender, but I haven't experimented with it yet.
Uhm? Nope, I'm not having issues with shadows. It's just the lightmap resolution. If I make it higher I get better results:

7gII7.png


I'm using BSP's right now because the shapes are simple. For stuff like straight ground, using BSP's isn't a bad idea, because they are lighter to process and you can modify a bunch of things on the fly (texture tiling, rotation, lightmap resolution per bsp block, etc...)
To change the resolution, select any of the surfaces and press F4 to get the options.
There you will see a bunch of options (Pan, Rotation, Scaling, Lighting, Alignment, etc..). Under Lighting you will have "Lightmap Resolution". Default is 32 I think, so you will have to make it lower (for some reason BSP's work backward, so the lower the number, the higher the resolution, but for static meshes it's the other way, the higher the number, the higher the res).

For the screenshot above I've set it up to 2, but it's a big waste. I could have two BSP rows around the shadows with higher resolution and then a BSP in the center (where there are no shadows being cast) and another two on the outer area (where it's all pretty dark) with lower resolution.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Ah okay, the BSP resolution makes sense. You have lots of little dots around the panels, though. Are you resizing manually instead of using Fraps from the editor view, or a key bound to tiledshot? Just curious, not meaning to be rude. :)

After 18 years of straight work, I am still kinda concluding that it's impossible to get clean shadows in more than one room in UDK, since it seems to require dominant lights. Here's an attempt at using Blender to bake the shadows instead of Lightmass, and then hand-tweaking and blending some exported textures:

cube3xh05.jpg


The edge of the shadow is still stair-steppy or noisy if you look close, and if you used the whole baked floor map from Blender there is banding that looks pretty bad in UDK. I feel like some people were able in games like Mirror's Edge to get decent baked shadows, but maybe they just used REALLY highres shadowmaps laid across terrain or indoor surfaces creatively?

I suppose the real lesson I learn from spending so much time with UDK keeps being "go back and look at Mirror's Edge, since DICE really did some good things with it before they made a better engine on their own".
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
Ah okay, the BSP resolution makes sense. You have lots of little dots around the panels, though. Are you resizing manually instead of using Fraps from the editor view, or a key bound to tiledshot? Just curious, not meaning to be rude. :)

After 18 years of straight work, I am still kinda concluding that it's impossible to get clean shadows in more than one room in UDK, since it seems to require dominant lights. Here's an attempt at using Blender to bake the shadows instead of Lightmass, and then hand-tweaking and blending some exported textures:

http://www.abload.de/img/cube3xh05.jpg[img]

The edge of the shadow is still stair-steppy or noisy if you look close, and if you used the whole baked floor map from Blender there is banding that looks pretty bad in UDK. I feel like some people were able in games like Mirror's Edge to get decent baked shadows, but maybe they just used REALLY highres shadowmaps laid across terrain or indoor surfaces creatively?

I suppose the real lesson I learn from spending so much time with UDK keeps being "go back and look at Mirror's Edge, since DICE really did some good things with it before they made a better engine on their own".[/QUOTE]
For the screenshots I usually just press PrintScreen and paste it in a file in Photoshop. I resized it slightly in Photoshop to show more of the room (I could have resized the UDK screen and Print Screen it again, but I didn't feel like doing that..). The little dots are probable because of the aliasing being downsized.

As for the dominant lights and the quality shadows in more than one room, what do you mean? You can get high quality shadows in more rooms if you have enough lightmap resolution to bake the shadows, In my example I'm using a simple light, not a dominant light.

You can bake lightmaps in bender or other programs, but most companies just do it within UDK. As for Mirror's Edge, they used Beast (a light renderer that costs money. It's included in the latest Unity version though).
 

Blizzard

Banned
My understanding is that the advanced Unity 3D features cost money to get (plus I heard Beast was really slow). I did know that Mirror's Edge used it, and I've just been experimenting with alternatives like Lightmass and importing lightmaps. If you're curious I can try to go through the gory process again to show closeup shadows.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
My understanding is that the advanced Unity 3D features cost money to get (plus I heard Beast was really slow). I did know that Mirror's Edge used it, and I've just been experimenting with alternatives like Lightmass and importing lightmaps. If you're curious I can try to go through the gory process again to show closeup shadows.
Sure, I'd like to see that.

Unity3D has another lightmap baking software included in the free version, though it also has an option to export your scene to 3dsmax and bake the stuff from there (you could even do that and set up a nice vray lighting scene and get super-high quality light and shadow info, but that would take forever to render).

Either way, I think UDK's lightmass works just fine for what I need. But I can't wait to get my hands on the Crysis 2 Sandbox / CryEngine 3 SDK or whatever they release first, and get nice quality shadows.. :p
 

Blizzard

Banned
Darn CryEngine 3, why must they (and Source and all other engines ;p) be so much better than UDK. ;_; I always feel like I'll have wasted all my decades of Unreal Engine study thus far when the Crytek development kit comes out and has much better lighting and whatnot.

I'm collecting the shadow examples for you, but some of them involve lightmass so this will take a while.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Image spam incoming. It's late so I may be missing something obvious. Please pardon any ignorance or incoherence of mine. :) I'm trying to understand this stuff better.

Preview lightmass, BSP floor at max resolution (set to 1):
shadow5jme2.png


Just for fun, I let it take forever and do a production lightmass build (I might have had the bounces to just 1 instead of 3, but I didn't mess with the scale...supposedly a world properties lightmass scale of 0.25 might make things take even longer but look a little better):
shadow62mi7.png


Dynamic point light:
shadow7wjdn.png


InterpActor with light environment:
shadow80ki2.png


Dominant point light:
shadow9v89q.png


For the various dynamic light attempts, the shadows are cleaner since they're not baked, but they can be super ugly or apparently literally wrong depending on where you're looking. You can be two feet away and they will literally pop corners as I tried to show in the picture, or go from an ugly line to a clean line. I think you can change some things in the engine INI file to force your shadows to LOD less or whatever, but I'm guessing that's an even heavier performance cost.
 

Mik2121

Member
Uhm.. I don't really know much about the technical side of UDK so I can't really help much. What size is the floor on the first shot? That might have something to do with the less than optimal quality in the shadows. Either way, floors usually have textures :p and with textures applied, the shadows edges don't look nearly as bad.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Mik2121 said:
Uhm.. I don't really know much about the technical side of UDK so I can't really help much. What size is the floor on the first shot? That might have something to do with the less than optimal quality in the shadows. Either way, floors usually have textures :p and with textures applied, the shadows edges don't look nearly as bad.
The floor is a large BSP surface, probably 1024x1042 or 2048x2048 unreal units. I forget.

I just posted all this stuff on the UDK forums as well, and have thus far gotten like 40 views with 0 comments.

What's really funny is that this same sort of thing (along with blotchy shadows and/or lightmass problems?) has been asked, I feel almost certain, on at least two different occasions over the last 2 years or so. I seem to recall the response in 2009 matching the response in 2011 which also matches your response now, and is basically "put textures on everything, and maybe the lousy lighting/shadows won't be as obvious."

I was just hoping there was another way. :p If I figure out something and/or dig into Mirror's Edge and find some shadows I especially like, hopefully I can report. Thanks for looking at it anyway!
 

Blizzard

Banned
Mik2121 said:
But really, with textures it's much harder to notice those blurry edges! :p

You should give it a try.
Blurry edges don't bother me as much as stairstep edges, random shadow blotches, shadow banding, and shadows that have angles in the wrong place and jump around, but point taken. :) I intend to get back to my project of roughly modeling a giant cave environment, even though I still probably ought to practice Blender basics (especially for modeling say, a curved chair).
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
In games we never use BSP. It's an old thing that no longer has its use really. It's all mesh now.

And what do you mean by DECADES of studying Unreal? I hope not!:p

edit: For modeling a cave, it's usually best to work with simple geometry and fake volume with normal maps, and only use detailed geometry where we can see the silhouette of the geometry (corners, stalactites, etc.). Depends a lot on the look you are going for, but you could use instantiated meshes to build the basics, then fill it with props like stalactites, houses, or whatever it is that would be in said cave.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
Blurry edges don't bother me as much as stairstep edges, random shadow blotches, shadow banding, and shadows that have angles in the wrong place and jump around, but point taken. :) I intend to get back to my project of roughly modeling a giant cave environment, even though I still probably ought to practice Blender basics (especially for modeling say, a curved chair).
Haha, yeah. I don't know much about Blender so I can't help you out. Doing a curved chair shouldn't be very problematic :p

As for caves, I saw one way of building them which was really interesting, but I forgot the URL :( I will try to find it later so you can give it a try. If I can't find it, I will just do it myself and take some screenshots. The results were fairly good (for a fast method that didn't involve sculpting).


Ether_Snake said:
In games we never use BSP. It's an old thing that no longer has its use really. It's all mesh now.
UT3 uses BSP's. I know it's 99% meshes, but BSP's can still be used under surfaces. (I still make all my floors as static meshes but really, it could be done I'm sure. Even more reason if it's a game similar to COD or Battlefield that doesn't need all the destroyed and grungy floors, but rather straight surfaces).

I know UT3 is old, but still... :p
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
I don't know, I never see BSP being used, or anything similar, in other editors I've used, so I'm guessing if it was really more optimal they would use it too.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Ether_Snake said:
In games we never use BSP. It's an old thing that no longer has its use really. It's all mesh now.
I know, but it seems to me that almost everyone says to first block a level out with BSP to see if the gameplay is fun, and then replace the BSP with meshes. I really think I tried the shadows on at least one mesh as well (also increasing the resolution up to something like 1024 or 2048 that should have been sufficient) and still saw jagged edges. I dunno though. I need to stop getting stuck forever on details and just make an ugly game I guess. :p

And what do you mean by DECADES of studying Unreal? I hope not!:p
I'm always sarcastic and exaggerate things by a factor of 10000 or more.

edit: For modeling a cave, it's usually best to work with simple geometry and fake volume with normal maps, and only use detailed geometry where we can see the silhouette of the geometry (corners, stalactites, etc.). Depends a lot on the look you are going for, but you could use instantiated meshes to build the basics, then fill it with props like stalactites, houses, or whatever it is that would be in said cave.
My goal was to make a huge open cavern that things would be inside, maybe like Portal 2. I think I started with a multires cube and sculpted out a "bowl" shape, basically. Aside from crazy issues with trying to properly navigate INSIDE a giant model with Blender, I don't mind sculpting out something and potentially trying to simplify it again later by bumping back down the multires level.

The plan is to get that looking decent, and then put an inverse bowl-shaped mesh over the top, thus closing off the cave chamber.

The biggest problems with appearance so far are coming up with textures that can look decent up close, like a normal cave wall, but which also convey a semi-realistic image of a cave wall far, FAR away in the distance. I think I briefly tried experimenting with height fog, but basically I need to figure out how to make realistic haze etc. so that the cave actually has a since of scale, and you can see walls and ceilings and think "Man, it's gonna take me minutes just to walk across this huge cave."

Mik2121 said:
Haha, yeah. I don't know much about Blender so I can't help you out. Doing a curved chair shouldn't be very problematic :p

As for caves, I saw one way of building them which was really interesting, but I forgot the URL :( I will try to find it later so you can give it a try. If I can't find it, I will just do it myself and take some screenshots. The results were fairly good (for a fast method that didn't involve sculpting).
Thanks! I'm not planning to try lots of curvy tunnels for a cave to start with. I know something like a chair probably wouldn't be -hard- in Blender, I'm just still learning the basics about things like curves and lattice modifiers etc. I imagine they have parallels in other modeling software packages.
 

Mik2121

Member
Ether_Snake said:
I don't know, I never see BSP being used, or anything similar, in other editors I've used, so I'm guessing if it was really more optimal they would use it too.
Dunno. I've seen them used in a few Unreal Engine titles that have shown wireframes within the engine (BSP's show up in grey inside the engine).

7OYWS.gif

(DM-Deck included in UDK)

Then again this might be an older technique and not used anymore. And while mostly everything is done with models, I think BSP's can be still used in certain (limited?) cases.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Yeah I don't know really:)

Blizzard: For the cave there is a better approach to take. You need to keep iteration in mind. When you make a level, it might turns out it's boring. You want to be able to change things easily for most of the production, until polishing. So instead of making one big mesh, make instances. A hall mesh, an L shaped corner, a T section, a X section, etc. And then just instantiate those basic blocks around. You'll then figure out that you need some more shapes and make them too, etc. Once you got your overall foundation done, do a second iteration on those models. It will update them everywhere in the map where you used them.

This is the efficient way to make levels. You can end up with higher quality because you don't spread yourself thin; you refine individual meshes which are used everywhere, rather than refine a whole level meter by meter, and you avoid using some sort of procedural modeling method that would force you to start almost all over if you need to move things around.

Levels are made with assets. Just in that picture above, look at how often objects are repeated. Less time spent modeling, UV mapping, texturing, correcting bugs, etc. and your level remains modular so you can make adjustments without losing work. For a cave it's no different than for a factory.
 

Mik2121

Member
Ether_Snake said:
Yeah I don't know really:)

Blizzard: For the cave there is a better approach to take. You need to keep iteration in mind. When you make a level, it might turns out it's boring. You want to be able to change things easily for most of the production, until polishing. So instead of making one big mesh, make instances. A hall mesh, an L shaped corner, a T section, a X section, etc. And then just instantiate those basic blocks around. You'll then figure out that you need some more shapes and make them too, etc. Once you got your overall foundation done, do a second iteration on those models. It will update them everywhere in the map where you used them.

This is the efficient way to make levels. You can end up with higher quality because you don't spread yourself thin; you refine individual meshes which are used everywhere, rather than refine a whole level meter by meter, and you avoid using some sort of procedural modeling method that would force you to start almost all over if you need to move things around.

Levels are made with assets. Just in that picture above, look at how often objects are repeated. Less time spent modeling, UV mapping, texturing, correcting bugs, etc. and your level remains modular so you can make adjustments without losing work. For a cave it's no different than for a factory.
Yep. That reminds me of this ppt file I saw some time ago from Epic Games. They talked about modular design and they recycle tons of elements by mixing them with others, or rotating/scaling them to make different elements.
I will try to find the download url again so Blizzard can check it out too.

Edit - In the meantime, there's this PDF too:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/rsrc/Three/ModularLevelDesign/ModularLevelDesign.pdf

Edit 2 - Oh, and this:

http://www.philipk.net/tutorials/modular_sets/modular_sets.html

And this:

http://www.3dmotive.com/product-modular-building-udk (this one costs moneyz, so if you're just doing it for fun, it might not be worth it..?)

And this:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/WorkflowAndModularity.html


Can't find the ppt though, so I might just upload it from my HDD. What's a good website to upload it?
 

Blizzard

Banned
Ether_Snake said:
Yeah I don't know really:)

Blizzard: For the cave there is a better approach to take. You need to keep iteration in mind. When you make a level, it might turns out it's boring. You want to be able to change things easily for most of the production, until polishing. So instead of making one big mesh, make instances. A hall mesh, an L shaped corner, a T section, a X section, etc. And then just instantiate those basic blocks around. You'll then figure out that you need some more shapes and make them too, etc. Once you got your overall foundation done, do a second iteration on those models. It will update them everywhere in the map where you used them.
I definitely agree in general, it's just that for this cavern, I literally wanted a large, quick, non-detailed, relatively low polycount chamber. Detailed meshes would fill the chamber, but for the chamber itself I just wanted a giant chunk as if it were cut out of rock, rather than repeated corners and dealing with textures matching along corner chunks, and placing all the chunks, and resizing them etc.

Plus, sculpting makes it in theory pretty quick to hollow out a bowl shape. If I were making tunnels or building parts instead of two bowls, I'd agree more on the modular part.

Mik, that first PDF is from 2002, but the writing/titles are hilarious so I shall read it and appreciate it. :p ("You may ask yourself, how did I get here?")
 

Blizzard

Banned
To make up for the recent boring lighting discussion, it's time to share some more UDK projects I have come across!

Fancy mansion video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Fg-moXAHY
Desert oasis with nice Prince of Persia music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OS9zPvvHNA

The guy who made the desert oasis has a website: http://www.damianlazarski.com/
From that website here are some shots of what he has done:

cellar_1.jpg


cellar_2.jpg


river_scene_2.jpg


river_scene_3.jpg


I thought they were quite impressive, though I did not see any videos for either of these scenes.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
To make up for the recent boring lighting discussion, it's time to share some more UDK projects I have come across!.
Oh well, too bad... because I come with more lighting tests!. This time using static meshes as light sources:

Af4de.png


It seems to work just fine. The colors get applied to the light and overall it looks convincing enough, but I definitely want reflections on the roof. I know with DX11 I can get'em, but until then I guess I'll have to stick to cubemaps. It's a pity, because using cubemaps for reflections always ends up in the reflections being slightly offset when watching from certain directions.

Which makes me wonder.. why do games like Roller Coaster Tycoon, which was released in like 2003 or 2004 have actual real-time reflections and the Unreal Engine don't? I guess what it's reflecting is much heavier in the case of UDK (complex shaders..), but still...
 

Blizzard

Banned
There are probably several things that the Unreal Engine 3/UDK doesn't have, or has in a very inefficient manner, compared to other engines. I don't know enough to say why, though.

One thing I ran across yesterday: Apparently you used to be able to use "light volumes" and set up inclusion/exclusion volumes on your lights, preventing light from spilling into areas where you didn't want it. Now, that functionality has been removed (per an Epic guy/moderator on the forums), light volumes are still in the editor (but presumably useless since you can't hook them to anything), and you just have to try to find a way to use the (presumably limited) number of lighting channels to try to produce a similar effect. I even tried messing with UnrealScript to re-enable the light volume options in LightComponent, but the functionality does indeed seem to be gone unless it only worked with baked lights. I didn't try baking them.

Regarding realtime reflections, you can use a reflection capture actor (I forget the name exactly) to render to a texture and display that on some surface, but that always seems super heavy to me. I -think- that functionality has been around for a while even in DX9. My graphics card fan will kick up, however, and the reflection might make things jerky. Plus I guess it makes the performance even worse if you try to get even one decent image capture actor/reflection by increasing the resolution or trying to render it at 30-60 fps.

I suppose you could try to use a hack of rendering it at a low framerate and using a filter to make it less obvious, but I dunno. Or if you are only wanting blurry/distorted reflections, a lower-res capture actor might work for you.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
Regarding realtime reflections, you can use a reflection capture actor (I forget the name exactly) to render to a texture and display that on some surface, but that always seems super heavy to me. I -think- that functionality has been around for a while even in DX9. My graphics card fan will kick up, however, and the reflection might make things jerky. Plus I guess it makes the performance even worse if you try to get even one decent image capture actor/reflection by increasing the resolution or trying to render it at 30-60 fps.

I suppose you could try to use a hack of rendering it at a low framerate and using a filter to make it less obvious, but I dunno. Or if you are only wanting blurry/distorted reflections, a lower-res capture actor might work for you.

Thanks, but that's the cubemap I was talking about :p :p

I have already set that up on one of my test levels and it works just fine without slowdowns, but as I said, depending on where you're looking at it from, it shows up really offset, and it's hard to use in other places. What many games do is just make it very blurry so that you only get blobs of colors and basic shapes, and apply that to everything that's reflective. It usually does the work, but it's not even by far a good quality reflection.

With DX11 you get real time billboard reflections which is a good thing. I think CryEngine has them too, or something similar. Can't wait for that SDK to go out...
 

Blizzard

Banned
Mik2121 said:
Thanks, but that's the cubemap I was talking about :p :p

I have already set that up on one of my test levels and it works just fine without slowdowns, but as I said, depending on where you're looking at it from, it shows up really offset, and it's hard to use in other places. What many games do is just make it very blurry so that you only get blobs of colors and basic shapes, and apply that to everything that's reflective. It usually does the work, but it's not even by far a good quality reflection.

With DX11 you get real time billboard reflections which is a good thing. I think CryEngine has them too, or something similar. Can't wait for that SDK to go out...
I didn't realize realtime reflection actors were cubemaps, but I've never really used cubemaps. I just put the reflection texture on a surface and the actor in approximately the same place so it acted like a mirror.

I wonder if a ton of people will go CryEngine-only once it comes out. At least there should be another UDK beta in a week or two, but I don't know any reason to expect new features more than some bug fixes and documentation updates.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
I didn't realize realtime reflection actors were cubemaps, but I've never really used cubemaps. I just put the reflection texture on a surface and the actor in approximately the same place so it acted like a mirror.

I wonder if a ton of people will go CryEngine-only once it comes out. At least there should be another UDK beta in a week or two, but I don't know any reason to expect new features more than some bug fixes and documentation updates.
Yeah, I don't think we'll be getting anything big in the next beta. Perhaps they add the minimize option for the content browser. That would be epic... jeez...

But really, I personally like UDK better. I have not played around with the CryEngine sandbox and I definitely wanna try out the SDK, but for some reason I like Unreal Engine more. I guess having been using UnrealEd since UT99 has something to do with it... :p
 

Blizzard

Banned
Another project, with video and website references:

http://forums.epicgames.com/showpost.php?p=28463068&postcount=1

It is not the most graphically impressive project, but I think it is a decent example of doing an architectural model/walkthrough of an area. One nice thing is that the creator recorded the steps they did, including things like getting shadows to look the way they wanted, basically from start to finish. You can download the PDF from the website if you'd like to read it.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Here's a project by someone after my own heart -- they wanted to make a large environment using as few texture maps as possible. =P

zest_hires_03mhyg.jpg


zest_hires_05pimy.jpg


Thread with more pictures: http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?p=28465703

They posted that they are working on an extensive modular environment creation tutorial, so I look forward to seeing that. I will try to remember to link it here if they post it.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Two things for tonight.

1. Epicgames forums were apparently hacked and encrypted passwords taken, at least. Change your password if you had an account there.

2. I saw a comment that said if you're using modular design, the only way to get decent lighting without light/shadow problems on the seams is basically to use seam decorations or trim stuff that hides the joint. Is this accurate?
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
Two things for tonight.

1. Epicgames forums were apparently hacked and encrypted passwords taken, at least. Change your password if you had an account there.

2. I saw a comment that said if you're using modular design, the only way to get decent lighting without light/shadow problems on the seams is basically to use seam decorations or trim stuff that hides the joint. Is this accurate?
1. Thanks!.


2. No, it isn't accurate. It depends on what you are doing and how you've made your assets. What some people get is ambient occlusion between meshes where there shouldn't, but that's also related to how you place the meshes.

There's also a problem with the amount of lights affecting one mesh. For example, look at the screenshots you posted two posts above. The ground uses all the same meshes yet it's all lighted slightly weird. You can fix that in multiple ways. I believe adding one or two edges on the mesh itself can help "smooth" the light. You can also break up the ground in even smaller pieces or play around with the lights.

I know there was a thread on polycount.com slightly related to this issue. I will try to find it and post it here.

I'm at work right now so I'll post more info once I get home in a few hours.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Chinese Electric Batman said:
Anyone know how to get the group editor up in this?

Can't find it.

I can add stuff to groups with right click.
I don't know of a "group editor". What version are you using? If you mean you are selecting multiple actors and using the right click -> "Group Actors" option, then that just groups those actors so you can select and move them together. You can use the View menu's "Allow Group Selection" (and similarly the "Lock Prefabs from Selection" for prefabs) options to be able to select them individually after grouping.

If you want to be able to group and hide things like older versions of the editors supported, I think that has been renamed to "layers". You can edit the object properties to have a layer name. I don't know if you can have a single object share multiple layers since I haven't tried, but I suspect it is unlikely. You can view layer options in View->Browser Windows->Layers, and the Layer menu in that dialog box should also give you some useful options.
 
Blizzard said:
I don't know of a "group editor". What version are you using? If you mean you are selecting multiple actors and using the right click -> "Group Actors" option, then that just groups those actors so you can select and move them together. You can use the View menu's "Allow Group Selection" (and similarly the "Lock Prefabs from Selection" for prefabs) options to be able to select them individually after grouping.

If you want to be able to group and hide things like older versions of the editors supported, I think that has been renamed to "layers". You can edit the object properties to have a layer name. I don't know if you can have a single object share multiple layers since I haven't tried, but I suspect it is unlikely. You can view layer options in View->Browser Windows->Layers, and the Layer menu in that dialog box should also give you some useful options.

Layer seems right, thanks.

I'm watching UDK tutorial videos but it's using an older version.
 

Mik2121

Member
Blizzard said:
Two things for tonight.

1. Epicgames forums were apparently hacked and encrypted passwords taken, at least. Change your password if you had an account there.

2. I saw a comment that said if you're using modular design, the only way to get decent lighting without light/shadow problems on the seams is basically to use seam decorations or trim stuff that hides the joint. Is this accurate?
This is not the best example out there, but I placed a couple pieces of modular elements on a wall to show you how it doesn't give any lighting errors.
I will set up another scene today at home with some object casting shadows on the walls, but meanwhile..

7FPQ2.png


The red lines indicate each element of the wall. Don't mind the textures. I'm not even close to done with them... :p
 

Blizzard

Banned
Ah but your modular elements have borders. I guess part of what I meant was that if you were trying to join two elements without having lines on the edge then it could be very difficult to avoid seams.
 

Ydahs

Member
I've been tossing up between Source SDK and UDK for a while. After I'm done with a couple small games for the iPhone, I'm planning to tackle my first full game.

Is UDK only first person or is the camera easily adjustable? As in, how difficult is it to make an over the shoulder perspective or a 3D platformer-ish camera, where you're looking at the main character from a high angle. From my understanding Source SDK doesn't have a versatile camera.

If this doesn't allow for one, I guess Unity is my last hope.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Ydahs said:
I've been tossing up between Source SDK and UDK for a while. After I'm done with a couple small games for the iPhone, I'm planning to tackle my first full game.

Is UDK only first person or is the camera easily adjustable? As in, how difficult is it to make an over the shoulder perspective or a 3D platformer-ish camera, where you're looking at the main character from a high angle. From my understanding Source SDK doesn't have a versatile camera.

If this doesn't allow for one, I guess Unity is my last hope.
I don't know Source (Botolf would be a better source), but Alien Swarm had an overhead angle, did it not?

UDK can certainly have side-scrolling platformer cameras, and I believe over the shoulder or high overhead cameras should be possible too. There are probably even tutorials for some specific camera angles. As for how "easy" it is, I'm not positive that it can be done completely with Kismet, the UDK/UE3 graphical script system. You might need to learn a little bit of UnrealScript, but it's not hard if you have a tutorial and just need to change the camera.

I'd suggest doing some youtube searches for "udk camera" without quotes, or maybe "udk overhead", or even just udk in general. You should be able to find some examples of things people have made with various camera angles.

If you wanted just a plain over the shoulder camera view without modifying anything yourself, there may even be one in UDK by default, but I forget the exact console command to enable it.

If you can't find anything, let us know and one of us can probably dig something up. :)
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Mik2121 said:
This is not the best example out there, but I placed a couple pieces of modular elements on a wall to show you how it doesn't give any lighting errors.
I will set up another scene today at home with some object casting shadows on the walls,

The red lines indicate each element of the wall. Don't mind the textures. I'm not even close to done with them... :p

Looks good. Reminds me of Tron.
 
Ydahs said:
I've been tossing up between Source SDK and UDK for a while. After I'm done with a couple small games for the iPhone, I'm planning to tackle my first full game.

Is UDK only first person or is the camera easily adjustable? As in, how difficult is it to make an over the shoulder perspective or a 3D platformer-ish camera, where you're looking at the main character from a high angle. From my understanding Source SDK doesn't have a versatile camera.

If this doesn't allow for one, I guess Unity is my last hope.

There is a tutorial over at 3dbuzz on how to do a top down style camera and a few others I believe.
 

Blizzard

Banned
WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. If anyone would rather I not include all this stuff in an actual post, please let me know, and I will remove it and try to find a web hosting option to link to intead.

So, in the last 10 years or so, I have had many game ideas in various forms, but hardly anything was actually FINISHED. I suppose I semi-finished one or two simple Windows puzzle games 5-10 years ago, in the sense that you might have been able to actually launch them, start a new game, play, win, and quit. You might have even been able to load/store the puzzle state, or load/store premade puzzles, but I forget.

At any rate, since I have been learning tiny bits and pieces with the UDK in my spare time, and the chances of me actually finishing anything are miniscule, I decided I would try to force myself to make something. Now, I acknowledge this will be incredibly simple. It will not be a game anyone in their right mind would WANT to play. It will only receive a 7/10 IGN rating. It will, in short, be a horrible failure. However, it will in theory be a complete installable game that will force me to quickly go through the process of making the whole thing.

I am going to lay out a rough "schedule" here, and post to update when I reach certain milestones. Since this is in my spare time I am not going to limit myself to a certain number of hours or days to finish. Instead, I am going to list the steps that I think I need to do, and give a certain amount of time to complete that step. Ideally, the total development time will be within the "budget" I lay out. I have made some step budgets very long, and I hope to finish early, but I wanted to allocate time for unforeseen problems.


STEP 1: SCHEDULE/DESIGN/PLANNING: 2 hours
==================================================
Since I already thought of this project and came up with a very simple game idea, this step primarily consists of writing down my thoughts. I am including the time it takes to write up this post. The design is below, though the final product may not fully match the design if I have too much trouble with any particular facet, or if I come up with a better idea and implementation within the development time constraints.

The game will be installed via the normal installer created by the Unreal Frontend tool. After installation, when the game is launched, it will present the user with a menu screen. Time permitting, there could be a decorative background image. There will be a button to start a new game, and a button to close the game and exit to Windows. All settings (graphical, control, etc.) will be preset in INI files. Users familiar with Unreal Engine 3 games will be able to edit the INI file to customize the settings if they want, since creating a settings/options screen would be too much work for this initial quick project.

If the new game button is pressed, a game level will load. There is only one level in the game, and it consists of a single room. Details about windows, decorations, lighting, and so forth will be postponed until the POLISH LEVEL step. The key design requirements of the room and player viewpoint are as follows.

The room will have enough space to lay out an 8x8 grid on the "floor" of some reasonable size (128x128 pixel squares are probably reasonable). The grid can either be invisible, or made visible to the player via coloring or a pattern, such as chessboard colors. If time permits, certain spots on the grid could have raised pillars, so that the "floor" of that grid square is actually on top of a pillar.

The game will use the default UDK first-person view, HUD, character, and controls in order to save time. If feasible, the default gun could be removed and some/all player sounds disabled (jumping/landing/falling grunts) since they can be rather obnoxious.

When the level is loaded, a fixed number of "targets" will be automatically placed in the level. Ideally, there will be 8 targets on random grid squares. If doing this is not feasible within time constraints, 4 targets can be used, and the positions can be preset instead of random. Visual design of the targets is postponed to later steps, but all targets need to be easily visible. The room needs to be lit brightly enough that the player can easily see all targets and plan a route to move through the room. Movement through the room will use default UDK FPS controls (WASD, mouse, and spacebar).

Gameplay will consist of the player spawning into the room within a starting region (square, circle, shape, or similar) that is visible on the floor. The player can take as much time as desired to look around at the room and targets before leaving the starting region. Once the player leaves the starting region, a timer will start counting up. If time permits, this timer can be displayed on the screen, but this is not required. The player's goal is to touch (move into) all targets in the level, as quickly as possible, which will cause each in turn to vanish or change in some obvious visual fashion. Once all targets have been touched, the game is over and the timer will stop. The elapsed time will be displayed to the user, and two buttons will be displayed. One button will restart the game, and one will quit to the main menu. Decisions about whether restarting the game generates targets in new random positions are postponed until the POLISH UI step. If development time constraints require it, the buttons can be replaced by a single button that will exit to Windows.

Additional note: When the player is ingame (or even in menus, whatever is easy to do), the ESCAPE key will cause the game to instantly exit to Windows, or, if time permits, will cause the game to pause and a menu to be displayed with "restart game" and "quit to main menu" buttons.


STEP 2: CREATE ROUGH LEVEL: 2 hours
=================================================
In this step, an unmodified UDK installation will be used to create a map consisting of a room, simple lighting inside the room, and a player spawn point. The room will consist of a large, hollow BSP block. The player's start region will consist of a raised, solid BSP block. The 8x8 grid will consist of a raised, solid BSP block. No texturing or further visual design will be done at this point.


STEP 3: UDK GAME SETUP: 3 hours
=================================================
In this step, the default UDK files will be customized for a new game, "bliz_tg1". This will probably involve a little UnrealScript setup. I have done this sort of thing previously, and I may reuse some previous code or INI file changes in order to save time.


STEP 4: INITIAL UI SETUP: 5 hours
=================================================
In this step, the main menu will be created with its two buttons (ideally using Flash/Scaleform, or something else if needed). Both buttons should work. The new game button should cause the map created in the UDK GAME SETUP step to be loaded, and the main menu to be hidden. The escape button should be implemented to immediately exit to Windows. At this point, no gameplay or additional UI features will be created. I have allocated a huge amount of time for this step because I am afraid of running into something I have not done before, and/or unexpected problems that cause big delays in getting the initial menu and level loading setup working.


STEP 5: INITIAL GAMEPLAY: 4 hours
=================================================
In this step, 4 targets will be placed in preset locations. They will consist of existing UDK static meshes, with properties configured to not block the player's movement. The timer will be implemented. When this step is completed, the player should be able to leave the starting region, move through all meshes, and see the final elapsed time printed to the screen and/or console.


STEP 6: ENHANCE GAMEPLAY: 4 hours
=================================================
In this step, 4 targets will be placed in random locations, using Kismet if possible for scripting. If this goes well, then the number will be increased to 8 targets. If everything goes VERY well, then I may look into randomly placing some targets higher than others on raised pillars. The pillars themselves would probably not be random, however, but just fixed into the grid "shape".


STEP 7: POLISH UI: 5 hours
=================================================
In this step, a winning message and/or graphic and/or animation will be displayed along with final elapsed time once the player finishes the level. The "restart level" and "quit to main menu" buttons will be displayed on the same screen. Their functions will be implemented in this step. Note that this implementation may include some gameplay modification depending on how I want to implement restarting the level. When this step is completed, the game should be playable from start to finish, starting from the main menu.


STEP 8: CREATE AND TEXTURE MODELS: 4 hours
===================================================
In this step, custom models and textures will be created for the following game assets:
* Grid area (chessboard)
* Starting area (raised platform)
* Targets (hovering objects, potentially spinning)
* Floor, wall, and roof BSP textures


STEP 9: POLISH LEVEL: 6 hours
===================================================
The newly created custom assets will be used to replace existing assets in the rough level. Assets will be adjusted as needed, and additional asset/BSP creation/work may be done if desired to make the level look reasonably nice. Any remaining gameplay changes should also be performed in this step. If baked lighting is used, it will be baked using production settings at the end of this step.


STEP 10: PACKAGE/TEST GAME: 5 hours
===================================================
The Unreal Frontend tool will be used to cook and package everything, and an installer will be created. If possible, the installer will be tested on a computer other than the development machine.




Progress so far:
================
Step 1 has been completed on schedule, taking about 2 hours. However, note that I originally predicted 1 hour for the design phase, but took longer than expected to write up the design. Thus, I adjusted my design schedule to 2 hours. =P I will not adjust the budgeted step times for the rest of the project.

I plan to post a status update after completing each of the following steps: 3, 7, 9, 10

Total development time in budget: 40 hours
Approximate total development time used so far: 2 hours
Steps completed: 1
 

Blizzard

Banned
Update before bedtime. I set up the basic game, INI, and UnrealScript stuff, and made the simple room with the start region and grid area. Note that the squares shown are just a default texture and the actual grid will have larger squares in the end. Also note that I probably spent at least 40 minutes or so just downloading, installing, and setting up another copy of the UDK since I wanted to have a fresh directory structure to start from.

bliztg1_1qu0c.jpg


Approximate total development time used so far: 4 hours (3 hours under budget)
Steps completed: 1-3
 

Blizzard

Banned
A playable demo of a third-person scifi shooter was just posted on the UDK forums. It was made as a learning project by 6 people over a year's time, with the goal of producing a playable demo for portfolio and experience purposes. I have no idea if it's any good and I haven't tried it myself yet, nor can I guarantee that the download doesn't have viruses or something, if you're paranoid. :p There is also a known bug list in the UDK forum thread. At any rate, here is a flythrough video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSLo6BsHoNk

And here are a couple of screenshots. I like the idea of the city with flying cars and stuff outside.

scifi2hfgc.jpg

scifi1zfn6.jpg


Thread link with more information and download: http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=801635
 
Mik2121 said:
Yep. That reminds me of this ppt file I saw some time ago from Epic Games. They talked about modular design and they recycle tons of elements by mixing them with others, or rotating/scaling them to make different elements.
I will try to find the download url again so Blizzard can check it out too.

Edit - In the meantime, there's this PDF too:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/rsrc/Three/ModularLevelDesign/ModularLevelDesign.pdf

Edit 2 - Oh, and this:

http://www.philipk.net/tutorials/modular_sets/modular_sets.html

And this:

http://www.3dmotive.com/product-modular-building-udk (this one costs moneyz, so if you're just doing it for fun, it might not be worth it..?)

And this:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/WorkflowAndModularity.html


Can't find the ppt though, so I might just upload it from my HDD. What's a good website to upload it?

Thanks a bunch for these links, I don't use Unreal but they should still come in handy.

Keep up the good work Blizzard!
 
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