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Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
- Thread starter gofreak
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Amir0x said:
I'm quoting you as you were the last to mention 'automated'. Can you, or anyone else, give an example of a non-scripted climbing mechanic that has been done well in a game?
The last 3 TR games, Ubi's POP games, and the AC series, all have scripted climbing/swinging/ledge-hopping. The only way to fail, is by jumping off in the wrong direction, or by missing a timed event (e.g crumbling ledge).
IMHO, what Uncharted needs in the platforming department is non-obvious paths (e.g false paths) combined with a more diverse move-set (e.g more than just ledge hopping).
StrayB said:
Well first, your analysis of Tomb Raider is simply factually incorrect. In Tomb Raider, you can die at the slightest mistake of the platforming. That's the first reason why TR is so different from Uncharted. Uncharted has a MASSIVE window for mistakes, and as long as you're pointing in the right direction, you will automatically make 99% of all jumps. In Tomb Raider, there is timing involved and actual skilled based distance requirements for some of the more complex segments.
I think, though some might disagree, that the Tomb Raider series does the platforming right in terms of what I want. It's got many many moments where you have to rely on your skill or speed to properly make a series of platforms, and if you're not good enough you won't succeed. Uncharted platforming requires no skill.
Other qualities aside, platforming specifically is one area TR > Uncharted. Lots of fancy crumbling shit while you're climbing <<< actually having risk while you climb.
Solo said:
Well then they should remove the platforming so we don't have to play such shit.
Yeah, the platforming is more about the elements of adventure and making the traversal unique and interesting than it is about difficulty.
That direction could certainly be diversified a bit, but I don't feel that the core mechanics need to be made more difficult. This isn't supposed to be a platforming game like Mario.
That direction could certainly be diversified a bit, but I don't feel that the core mechanics need to be made more difficult. This isn't supposed to be a platforming game like Mario.
Tomb Raider's platforming, beyond brief exploration passages, is to facilitate giant, multiple-room puzzles that you climb over (it completely schools Uncharted in this regard). As the platforming isn't there to provide tension, being automated is fine. The automation is also dialed down in comparison to Uncharted.StrayB said:
Only the recent watercolour PoP has automated platforming, if I recall correctly.
In Assassin's Creed, the platforming is there for stealth purposes or fast traversal through a location. Automation is perfect for this case and the game makes no bones about hiding it (hold trigger and point stick forward TO BUST SOME SWEET SHIT).
Uncharted tries to hide its automation and attempts to use it for tension-building outside of gunplay. That's why it could be improved by being non-automated.
Problem is, becoming non-automated could potentially make the gunplay-platforming-fusion segments harder. Decisions, decisions...
Majmun
Member
Amir0x said:
I had a lot of suicide jumps during my first playthrough.
I died a lot of times in the icy area I had to explore with Tenzin. That's the place I remember dying the most. I even died in the moving train. Been a long time since I've played the singleplayer, so I don't remember all of the hazardous platforming sections. But I remember being pretty nervous during some of those sections.
Jack Scofield
Member
Amir0x said:
I'm sure you're so much more hardcore than us plebeians.
DMeisterJ said:
Except that's a blatant lie. At least one third of Uncharted games comprise of platforming. To say it's not a focus is just being intellectually dishonest. And that one third is made to look really over the top, shit crumbling... it's made to have the illusion of being dangerous.
Except, it's not. And you feel no risk and no danger because it's all automated crap. I don't mind being somewhat forgiving, but Uncharted goes to the extreme. Such an extreme that the platforming consistently betrays its intent, to make you feel like you're doing RISKY platforming maneuvers, because there is no risk.
I'm glad that the sum totality of its worth can be summed up as "it looks cool" - but I need something a bit more. I'm a graphics whore and even I need more.
Jack Scofield said:
Of course! herp derp
I'm sorry but that's such a lame response. It's two chapters for a start, it's like forty minutes of pointless crap I should never have to go thru a second time. It's the worst part of the game and we even have to do the train bit twice in a single playthru from slightly different angles.jett said:
The idea that it's only bad for a short time is really weak. Imagine if every time you wanted to watch the deleted scenes in the Avatar bluray you had to sit thru that 'intro' that provides context. It's just poor design. The idea that it's poor design with a sense of brevity to it is hardly compelling.
D
Deleted member 30609
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the fancy movement from point a->b, from one awesome combat room to another, worked because it wasn't just window-dressing. You'd see a great environment that would inform something about the story or setting in a very Valve like way, you'd see a combat-room or distant area that you know you're heading towards (also in a Valve 'citadel in the distance' way, gosh, HL2 was important), they would transition to and from combat or puzzle room seamlessly (the fight while hanging from signs or, say, in the Sanctuary/Monastery/what's-it in UC2 where you climb the outside of the big snowy tower thing and then have to drop inside and take out a bunch of guys) and you'd get your Gordon and Alyx character moments as the characters helped each other out.
It was simple, automated and as such required very little skill, but it fed into everything else ingeniously and made everything surrounding them so much more engaging. It's easy to see them in a vacuum when you play through the game more than once and forget what made them so important in the first place, but on a first playthrough they are so damn essential in making the final product as good (edit: or at least memorable) as it is.
It was simple, automated and as such required very little skill, but it fed into everything else ingeniously and made everything surrounding them so much more engaging. It's easy to see them in a vacuum when you play through the game more than once and forget what made them so important in the first place, but on a first playthrough they are so damn essential in making the final product as good (edit: or at least memorable) as it is.
Amir0x said:
I don't see my analysis of TR as "factually incorrect". I'm a big fan of the series, and a big fan of speed runs. The margin of error for pointing in the right direction is rather large, with the exception of some segments in the Great Pyramid level in TRA. But there's isn't a single segment where I would consider the slightest mistake would cause Lara to die, even with manual grab on (in TRA). All you need to do is either have the camera face in the general area you want to jump, or make sure Lara is pointing the right direction. Also, I would like to know what segment in any of the last 3 TR has "skilled based distance requirements."
Suairyu said:
For moments other than gunplay+platforming combination, how would you design the platforming mechanic?
D
Deleted member 30609
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Well, the two examples in my post not withstanding, let's say the platforming sections preceding the helicopter fight in Tibet.
You climb up on a beam and expect to climb across it because that's what the game has conditioned you to do (just prior to this you climb up a hotel, which in itself had a few moments of things not going as you'd expect and even required a, gasp, DIAGONAL jump, which is a bit risque in UC's platforming space), only to have your expectations fucked with as a helicopter (which has been foreshadowed earlier on in that oh so fashionable way) shoots your pathway into oblivion and knocks the structure your climbing back in on itself.
You're then forced to jump over a few platforms, climb up a sign which gets knocked over in the cross-fire and jump into an arena of guys shooting at you and seamlessly proceed to have a cover-based fight with the helicopter blowing pot-plants and grenades every which way.
This is the game at its best, when its playing with everything you've been conditioned to expect and makes you use all your skills together in a way you'd not have expected, but at the same time never makes you step outside yourself at the time and think "oh, here's this section, now this section". You don't think about it until you look back on it, and i think that's UC2's greatest success.
You climb up on a beam and expect to climb across it because that's what the game has conditioned you to do (just prior to this you climb up a hotel, which in itself had a few moments of things not going as you'd expect and even required a, gasp, DIAGONAL jump, which is a bit risque in UC's platforming space), only to have your expectations fucked with as a helicopter (which has been foreshadowed earlier on in that oh so fashionable way) shoots your pathway into oblivion and knocks the structure your climbing back in on itself.
You're then forced to jump over a few platforms, climb up a sign which gets knocked over in the cross-fire and jump into an arena of guys shooting at you and seamlessly proceed to have a cover-based fight with the helicopter blowing pot-plants and grenades every which way.
This is the game at its best, when its playing with everything you've been conditioned to expect and makes you use all your skills together in a way you'd not have expected, but at the same time never makes you step outside yourself at the time and think "oh, here's this section, now this section". You don't think about it until you look back on it, and i think that's UC2's greatest success.
Second said::lol
I'd love to investigate that evil puddle of yours. But I'm sure ND has fixed it by now
I personally had zero glitches during my sp playthroughs*.
*not counting mp. That was glitch heaven.
Yeah, it was really funny. It was in ... The Monastery level. IIRC Right before you get into the second firefight at the gate of the Monastery, there's a little path to the left of the doorway. There's a little puddle there. I thought maybe they were hiding a treasure there. I calmly walk over the puddle... Drake's body goes ragdoll and dies :lol
Easy.StrayB said:
Two mandatory changes:
Don't let the game autopilot you
Keep Nathan's jumping range a constant (or predictably variable, depending on the run-up time). Nothing pisses me off more than missing small jumps that should work but don't because the developers don't want you to go there, then seconds later making an impossible jump because that's what you were meant to do. The only time I die in Uncharted through platforming is due to such discrepancies.
The above would make the platforming mean something, but would require more meticulous level design.
Optional change:
Have a grip button. Hold to grab, release to fall. Potentially not a good idea in a shooter/platformer hybrid, though.
I don't care about trophies, but that's not the point. You can skip any level, should that be part of the design to? Might as well give us level skip cheats again too.jett said:
The point is to have a more mature design, once we've gone thru the tutorial, there is no reason to assume we will want to do it again, and the design should recognize that by making it truly optional. Maybe even offer a five minute recut cutscene before going to the prison cutscene or something. It just feels lazy to me.
I agree with Amir0x that platforming doesn't have the feeling of danger that they clearly wanted there to be(scripted 'oh noes, teh danger' sequences as a evidence). On a second playtrough, most platforming parts were just boring since it felt just like 'going thru the motios'.
I don't like hard single player games, but there is a difference between being hard and having player involved in traversal.
Platforming works great in firefight situations, because it's up to player to improvise the use of platforming abilities while engaging enemies.
Straight platforming sections are just autopilot and ask no mental, timing or dexterity skills at all.
I don't like hard single player games, but there is a difference between being hard and having player involved in traversal.
Platforming works great in firefight situations, because it's up to player to improvise the use of platforming abilities while engaging enemies.
Straight platforming sections are just autopilot and ask no mental, timing or dexterity skills at all.
If we consider trophies a part of the game (and Naughty Dog blatantly do - they were in Uncharted 1 before trophies even existed on a global scale and are tied to bonus content unlocks), your argument is essentially "you can skip that part of the game if you don't care about finishing the game". For StuBurns, trophies obviously are an important element (EDIT - apparently not. My point still stands). I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.jett said:
... though this point is equally as silly. Games rely on interaction to provide narrative and enjoyment. A mature game design wouldn't allow the possibility of elements you can skip and have summarised as cutscenes unless it's a core game mechanic.
Not that Uncharted is mature game design, mind. It's simply refined-to-the-illusion-of-perfection corridor shooter/platformer hybrid. And I love it.
D
Deleted member 30609
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I'm up for a debate on this because my opinion isn't set in stone, but I don't feel like a game, especially one with a fully-featured multiplayer mode, needs to inherently accommodate players interest-levels on a repeat playthrough on a design level. If you're making a super-linear game, then I say making sure a scripted section remains fun on a second playthrough should probably be low of your priority list.
The obvious counter to this is all the unlocks and higher difficulty levels, but I feel like you have to either make compromises in your design for the people playing it for the first time (the majority) in favour of those playing it more than once (the minority), or you have to make compromises for the people playing it multiple times in favour of those who will only play it once.
I feel like ND made the right choice in going with the latter approach.
The obvious counter to this is all the unlocks and higher difficulty levels, but I feel like you have to either make compromises in your design for the people playing it for the first time (the majority) in favour of those playing it more than once (the minority), or you have to make compromises for the people playing it multiple times in favour of those who will only play it once.
I feel like ND made the right choice in going with the latter approach.
Uncharted is a mixed media production, part CG movie, part interactive game, as most video games are. It already relies completely on it's cutscenes to tell it's story. If there was some significant emergent story detail in the first two chapters, I might feel different, but there isn't. It feels like having to take a driving test to every time you want to drive.Suairyu said:
I don't think it's some huge deal breaker or something, I just think it's poor design.
D
Deleted member 30609
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this, I agree with!Amir0x said:
or hell, just publicly release a Konami-code or sorts that unlocks it. That way the people like us who want it will be able to easily seek it out and use it and Joe Gamer won't accidentally choose it and hate their game.
I totally agree with everything you said except in your describing the "skip the driving test" idea as mature game design. Mature game design would make the driving test narratively/ludicly important in such a way that skipping it would be unthinkable. I'd totally be behind you on calling it better game design. But as I previously said, the best design of them all would be to make the driving test level kick as much ass as the later levels.StuBurns said:
I fully agree, I just mean a better game design that doesn't really require additional budget. The real design conclusion would be to have those levels be different once you've played them once. Maybe give you a gun instead of a tranq gun so you have the option not to do the stilted stealth lesson, things of that nature. But those kinds of additions take time and money, that might not be budgeted for things that assist replay value. I honestly have no idea how budgets are broken up and assigned so I can't say. But skipping the levels and showing a reedited cutscene really wouldn't be too costly I'd imagine.Suairyu said:
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I died quite a bit from wrong / wrongly timed jumps in UC2 and UC1 as well (rope vines on the fortress come to mind there first) first time through games. A guy I know from work complained a LOT about missing jumps in first UC, and he's sort of a hardcore shooter player.
Second time around, all platforming sections in any game are never that engaging anymore, and it sure helps that in UC games you don't die from a smallest mistake there. If the platforming was producing any more deaths for me, I wouldn't like it, simple as that, but I can't talk for others.
Second time around, all platforming sections in any game are never that engaging anymore, and it sure helps that in UC games you don't die from a smallest mistake there. If the platforming was producing any more deaths for me, I wouldn't like it, simple as that, but I can't talk for others.
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