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[dragonelite]

Or even WiiU :3 I keed.

Dat optimization and nintendo moneyhatting

 

[SneakyStephan]

There are rumors about U4 ditching it's voxel based lightning. I wonder what that means about next gen hardware if true.

For real? Smh, the one single exciting thing about unreal engine...
They're just not going to bother with it? What about pc ports? Surely pc ports and pc games should get it...

I just went from being unimpressed and blazé about next gen to actively despising it already.

Someone needs to turn that 'thanks obama' meme into 'thanks consoles'.

Ironically going back to more baked lighting just means another increase in development costs instead of a decrease.
Sony and MS cheap out, every dev will pay.

 

[AlStrong]

Right I understand I was more asking lightmass in regards to the bake statement. As in is Epic regressing back to Lightmass until they reintroduce SVOGI or are they using something else entirely in it's place. Wouldn't the removal of SVOGI cause some issues with developers who were knee deep in their next gen game development?

It's... nebulous. (Sorry)

 

[specialguy]

There's likely some stuff in there that might make Durango as good or a bit better than Orbis at certain specific tasks. And maybe a bit of hardware that helps developers out with some of the peculiarities and characteristics of Durango's memory setup (which would be less relevant in a comparison with Orbis).

Orbis might also have, in addition to the core processors, stuff like that also, targeting different things.

I think the idea of 'secret sauce' that accelerates Durango in a general multiplier sense has maybe got a bit mixed up. From comments I've read I get the impression people were 'just' talking about the usual closed-box development and optimisation letting devs get more out of less when talking about boxes acting like much more powerful PC equivalents.

You also have to bear in mind - and I hope I can say this without causing offense to anyone - that some of the sentiment around this might be based on an opinion or a small sample of developer opinions that have gotten bandied about like an echo chamber. And that some of our 'insiders' are actually on the outside looking in, and trying to figure it out from a lay person's point of view, which can raise misunderstandings. And that they may not have the full picture.

I don't have any insider info, but my first paragraph above is my impression from what's been said so far. I don't think we're talking about silver bullets or apples-for-apples compensation for relative strengths and weaknesses - there is not a lot of doubt in my mind that the main general-case workhorses of these systems are the GPUs and CPUs we've heard discussed.

I've heard rumblings Durango secret sauce is nothing amazing. I kind of expected as much anyway.

The only caveat that still makes me wonder is lherres post that he believe PS4/720 will be similar to PS3/360 in comparing their power. It seems like special sauce might be required for that to be true (but then again, there is the RAM discrepancy everybody ignores).

But even the audio DSP can help, if the PS4 doesn't have one. We hear 720 dedicates two cores to the OS, say PS4 only dedicates one, 720 is down a core already. But, if 720 has an audio chip and PS4 doesn't, PS4 may have to in turn dedicate a core or two to audio where 720 doesn't.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

There's likely some stuff in there that might make Durango as good or a bit better than Orbis at certain specific tasks. And maybe a bit of hardware that helps developers out with some of the peculiarities and characteristics of Durango's memory setup (which would be less relevant in a comparison with Orbis).

Orbis might also have, in addition to the core processors, stuff like that also, targeting different things.

I think the idea of 'secret sauce' that accelerates Durango in a general multiplier sense has maybe got a bit mixed up. From comments I've read I get the impression people were 'just' talking about the usual closed-box development and optimisation letting devs get more out of less when talking about boxes acting like much more powerful PC equivalents.

You also have to bear in mind - and I hope I can say this without causing offense to anyone - that some of the sentiment around this might be based on an opinion or a small sample of developer opinions that have gotten bandied about like an echo chamber. And that some of our 'insiders' are actually on the outside looking in, and trying to figure it out from a lay person's point of view, which can raise misunderstandings. And that they may not have the full picture.

I don't have any insider info, but my first paragraph above is my impression from what's been said so far. I don't think we're talking about silver bullets or apples-for-apples compensation for relative strengths and weaknesses - there is not a lot of doubt in my mind that the main general-case workhorses of these systems are the GPUs and CPUs we've heard discussed.

Good post gofreak. You articulate thing's so much better than I can....I can't wait see games on these machines so I can stop worrying about specs (but I can't help it)

 

[Angelus Errare]

It's... nebulous. (Sorry)

Understandable, cool you were able to say as much as you did.

 

[madmaxx350]

am i the only one here hoping that Steamrollers are ready by the time Orbis' final kits will be ready so that they ditch the 8 core Jaguar for a 4 core setup of Steamrollers?

 

[Groder Mullet]

I've heard rumblings Durango secret sauce is nothing amazing. I kind of expected as much anyway.

The only caveat that still makes me wonder is lherres post that he believe PS4/720 will be similar to PS3/360 in comparing their power. It seems like special sauce might be required for that to be true (but then again, there is the RAM discrepancy everybody ignores).

But even the audio DSP can help, if the PS4 doesn't have one. We hear 720 dedicates two cores to the OS, say PS4 only dedicates one, 720 is down a core already. But, if 720 has an audio chip and PS4 doesn't, PS4 may have to in turn dedicate a core or two to audio where 720 doesn't.

Come back home, Tyrone. It's time to come back home.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

am i the only one here hoping that Steamrollers are ready by the time Orbis' final kits will be ready so that they ditch the 8 core Jaguar for a 4 core setup of Steamrollers?

I'm far from an expert on this, but I think it is a tad late for that if this is coming out later this year.

 

[Iacobellis]

am i the only one here hoping that Steamrollers are ready by the time Orbis' final kits will be ready so that they ditch the 8 core Jaguar for a 4 core setup of Steamrollers?

Wouldn't both consoles having the same CPU setup make porting games a more convenient process for developers?

 

[Angelus Errare]

am i the only one here hoping that Steamrollers are ready by the time Orbis' final kits will be ready so that they ditch the 8 core Jaguar for a 4 core setup of Steamrollers?

Generates too much heat compared to Jaguar.

 

[JonathanPower]

You're cherry-picking what you want to hear to make a case you want to be true. I said third parties talked to Sony. Sometimes publicly. What I implied was that an internal team at Sony made a specific case to higher-ups about the memory in the system, which was not 4GB a year ago. Or even six months ago.

Also, if you're living your life on the idea that the Vita isn't one of the biggest disasters of Sony's time in the console space, then I don't know that you can be reasoned with.



360 devkits arrived in august before launch.

I think that Vita is the best portable console ever released, the hardware itself is fantastic. The only problem of Vita are the ridiculously overpriced memory cards.

 

[JonathanPower]

I've heard rumblings Durango secret sauce is nothing amazing. I kind of expected as much anyway.

The only caveat that still makes me wonder is lherres post that he believe PS4/720 will be similar to PS3/360 in comparing their power. It seems like special sauce might be required for that to be true (but then again, there is the RAM discrepancy everybody ignores).

But even the audio DSP can help, if the PS4 doesn't have one. We hear 720 dedicates two cores to the OS, say PS4 only dedicates one, 720 is down a core already. But, if 720 has an audio chip and PS4 doesn't, PS4 may have to in turn dedicate a core or two to audio where 720 doesn't.

Why would you need one core dedicated to the OS for PS4? A jaguar core would be powerful enough to run the OS with just a fraction of its power, unless there is a very overbloated OS, which seems to be the case with Durango. Thus, it may be the case that all 8 cores are available to games in the PS4.

 

[Can Crusher]

I've heard rumblings Durango secret sauce is nothing amazing. I kind of expected as much anyway..

What is it then?

 

[grimshawish]

I think that Vita is the best portable console ever released, the hardware itself is fantastic. The only problem of Vita are the ridiculously overpriced memory cards.

A handheld where most games are below the resolution of the screen is not 'fantastic' hardware.

 

[Iacobellis]

A handheld where most games are below the resolution of the screen is not 'fantastic' hardware.

 

[JonathanPower]

A handheld where most games are below the resolution of the screen is not 'fantastic' hardware.

The hardware itself is fantastic. What you are talking about is the software.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

You also have to bear in mind - and I hope I can say this without causing offense to anyone - that some of the sentiment around this might be based on an opinion or a small sample of developer opinions that have gotten bandied about like an echo chamber. And that some of our 'insiders' are actually on the outside looking in, and trying to figure it out from a lay person's point of view, which can raise misunderstandings. And that they may not have the full picture.

Or perhaps some people only have information about placeholder hardware that's in the devkits at the moment, while others know the target specs for the final hardware (which, of course, may still keep changing until the final machines enter mass production). In any case, the best we can do is wait for actual playable games. If the PS3/Xbox 360 pre-launch period (or even the Wii U situation) should have taught us something, it's that theoretical figures on paper can often be deceiving.

 

[grimshawish]

The hardware itself is fantastic. What you are talking about is the software.

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

 

[Iacobellis]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

Well, Sony was right when they said the Vita was a portable PS3!

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

lol at this picture.

What's the story behind it/where is it from?

 

[madmaxx350]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

aren't all those first gen games ? I'd understand if you said that 4 years into the console's lifecycle

 

[flak57]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.

Sorry but this is terrible logic. They could have made the games at lower quality elsewhere and had the resolution match the screen, they just chose the quality elsewhere instead.

 

[JonathanPower]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

Games like Ridge Racer and Whipeout 2048 look amazing, they show indeed the power of the console.

 

[DieH@rd]

Golden Abyss is a fantastic looking game.

 

[Massa]

A handheld where most games are below the resolution of the screen is not 'fantastic' hardware.

This is false. The majority of Vita games run at native resolution.

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

Games like Ridge Racer and Whipeout 2048 look amazing, they show indeed the power of the console.

2048 is such a good game. The races, the music, especially the infinite mode or whatever it was called, is all just too damn good. Perfect handheld game I say, minus the load times.

 

[Mung]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

Nonsense. Vita is very good hardware, very impressive.

 

[Borman]

As Ive been saying, the Xbox 1 used Alpha hardware through May of 2001, Beta hardware through at least August of 2001. The console launched in November of 2001. Its not all that unusual. The hardware is close enough in some regards, and the software isn't just windows running, it begins to resemble the final software even in the alpha stage.

 

[Iacobellis]

lol at this picture.

What's the story behind it/where is it from?

Did you have too many drinks?

 

[thehypocrite]

As Ive been saying, the Xbox 1 used Alpha hardware through May of 2001, Beta hardware through at least August of 2001. The console launched in November of 2001. Its not all that unusual. The hardware is close enough in some regards, and the software isn't just windows running, it begins to resemble the final software even in the alpha stage.

Development time for games has increased. Target specs need to be nailed down by now in order to launch in 2013 IMO.

 

[AgentP]

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

That logic works for the PS3 and 360 at the beginning of the generation. Are they bad hardware too?

BTW "sub-res" is not a real thing.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Development time for games has increased. Target specs need to be nailed down by now in order to launch in 2013 IMO.

It hasn't increased all that much, from what we know, and launch games could easily be targeting lower, safe specs. That said, I don't think Microsoft wants shortages this time around (and neither does Sony) so they'll have to start mass production earlier. Exactly how early, we don't know.

 

[Iacobellis]

It hasn't increased all that much, from what we know, and launch games could easily be targeting lower, safe specs. That said, I don't think Microsoft wants shortages this time around (and neither does Sony) so they'll have to start mass production earlier. Exactly how early, we don't know.

June, for a nice September/October launch.

 

[RaijinFY]

You're cherry-picking what you want to hear to make a case you want to be true. I said third parties talked to Sony. Sometimes publicly. What I implied was that an internal team at Sony made a specific case to higher-ups about the memory in the system, which was not 4GB a year ago. Or even six months ago.

Also, if you're living your life on the idea that the Vita isn't one of the biggest disasters of Sony's time in the console space, then I don't know that you can be reasoned with.



360 devkits arrived in august before launch.

Did they really think going with 2GB only with PS4? I have a hard time believing that... but seriously if that is true, i really would like to know who is in charge of the machine because i cant imagine it's the western part of SCEWWS sticking with just 2GB of ram.

 

[grimshawish]

That logic works for the PS3 and 360 at the beginning of the generation. Are they bad hardware too?

BTW "sub-res" is not a real thing.

You realise the Vita comes with a screen?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Did they really think going with 2GB only with PS4? I have a hard time believing that... but seriously if that is true, i really would like to know who is in charge of the machine because i cant imagine it's the western part of SCEWWS sticking with just 2GB of ram.

Wasn't there a report that MS also wasn't aiming for where they're rumored to be at now until publishers started pressuring them? Both Sony and MS want to make money as fast as possible on their next consoles, so it isn't too surprising that both of them would prefer to build a console as cheap as possible.

 

[StevieP]

Did they really think going with 2GB only with PS4? I have a hard time believing that... but seriously if that is true, i really would like to know who is in charge of the machine because i cant imagine it's the western part of SCEWWS sticking with just 2GB of ram.

FYI, going with 2 was in their final target specs released a year ago. It isn't just power/heat that you add. It was (and still is) extremely expensive and drives up the cost and complexity of the motherboard (while also affecting future cost reduction strategies) to include 4gb of that type of expensive memory. For an (admittedly layman) example see the price difference between a 2gb GTX 680 and its 4gb version. It shouldn't surprise anyone given what Sony's currently dealing with that there were (are) some bean counters involved with the decision in regards to memory.

 

[RaijinFY]

FYI, going with 2 was in their final target specs released a year ago. It isn't just power/heat that you add. It was (and still is) extremely expensive and drives up the cost and complexity of the motherboard (while also affecting future cost reduction strategies) to include 4gb of that type of expensive memory. For an (admittedly layman) example see the price difference between a 2gb GTX 680 and its 4gb version. It shouldn't surprise anyone given what Sony's currently dealing with that there were (are) some bean counters involved with the decision in regards to memory.

I know all of that, but holy shit. What would have happened if they had to release the machine last christmas? It would have been an epic disaster all around (for Sony and 3rd parties).

 

[Juice]

For real? Smh, the one single exciting thing about unreal engine...
They're just not going to bother with it? What about pc ports? Surely pc ports and pc games should get it...

I just went from being unimpressed and blazé about next gen to actively despising it already.

Someone needs to turn that 'thanks obama' meme into 'thanks consoles'.

Ironically going back to more baked lighting just means another increase in development costs instead of a decrease.
Sony and MS cheap out, every dev will pay.

Ugh.. Hope it isn't true.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

FYI, going with 2 was in their final target specs released a year ago. It isn't just power/heat that you add. It was (and still is) extremely expensive and drives up the cost and complexity of the motherboard (while also affecting future cost reduction strategies) to include 4gb of that type of expensive memory. For an (admittedly layman) example see the price difference between a 2gb GTX 680 and its 4gb version. It shouldn't surprise anyone given what Sony's currently dealing with that there were (are) some bean counters involved with the decision in regards to memory.

Exactly, its not just about the cost now, they also have to consider if their ram choices are going cost reduce enough over the life of the console. Nobody wants to have even one component end up like the cost reduction nightmare the Xbox 1 ended up being.

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46625160&postcount=7432

My understanding of the IBM patents is that it presents methods to Ray Trace/process images in a parallel method (GPU too). The most common artwork block diagram has something similar to a Jaguar CPU package with 4 Jaguar CPUs and a common L2 or a 1PPU3SPU CPU package that must have a common L2 also to work in AMD APUs and connect with AMD's Xbar switch. Calling it VTE or BTE or a 4 CPU package that is running software to vector/Ray Trace audio paths and video light/vision paths is just confusing the issue.

Why raytrace, in the descriptions is this: 1) "Real time Ray tracing is computationally intense and methods to optimize the process are needed". 2) "As scene complexity increases (objects and resolution) Rasterization processing loads increase linearly while Ray tracing increases logarithmically" (more slowly). So at some point in moving to Ultra High Resolution it will become advantageous to move to Ray Tracing. So the VGLeaks article stating DX 11.5 when we are at DX 11.1 is probably accurate. DX12 will probably be full Ray tracing and likely starts with 4K video. In the mean time a mix of ray tracing and rasterization = .5

It looks like Virtual Reality requires Ray tracing/ray casting techniques so in the short term it's needed for the Head mounted S3D Virtual Reality glasses in Microsoft's Forenza (sp) and Sony's Orbis (Greek root is "of the eye" and Latin root is orbit or "around the world", I suspect it's the Greek version).

Yeah right now RT for scale of today games is not possible on current hardware (next gen). Problem is rasterization have also limits. I mean all those advanced techniques are just recreating or emulate parts of RT rendering. In some point in future it will be more taxing for hardware to emulate those effect rather than use actual RT.

Perkel has it = "As scene complexity increases (objects and resolution) Rasterization processing loads increase linearly while Ray tracing increases logarithmically" (more slowly). So at some point in moving to Ultra High Resolution it will become advantageous to move to Ray Tracing."

 

[jeff_rigby]

Tell us more Alstrong! What would be a good replacement for SVOGI in Epic's case?

This. I swear the number of people I've seen thinking Durango is going to do real time raytracing at 1080p has been painfully hilarious. We're another generation away from that entering the realm of possibility in a console.

Secret sauce makes people think crazy things yo.

Gesh, I've not said that. Real time ray tracing of the entire scene is impossible now but might be possible for next generation 2020 when 10 TFlops is speculated for handhelds. In the mean time it's used by AMD for bundled ray tracing for lighting and for Virtual reality. Some special sauce like FPGA which is more efficient for some of the tasks may be used to increase the number of bundled rays to make lighting more accurate.

In the mean time we should expect Ray casting and ray tracing being used with a few rays and anything that makes it more efficient or techniques to improve performance will be developed. We are walking technology into Ultra High definition and likely the 11.5 in VGleaks means there is some hardware in BOTH next generation consoles to support some ray tracing.

 

[Mario007]

I've heard rumblings Durango secret sauce is nothing amazing. I kind of expected as much anyway.

The only caveat that still makes me wonder is lherres post that he believe PS4/720 will be similar to PS3/360 in comparing their power. It seems like special sauce might be required for that to be true (but then again, there is the RAM discrepancy everybody ignores).

But even the audio DSP can help, if the PS4 doesn't have one. We hear 720 dedicates two cores to the OS, say PS4 only dedicates one, 720 is down a core already. But, if 720 has an audio chip and PS4 doesn't, PS4 may have to in turn dedicate a core or two to audio where 720 doesn't.

Do tell us more about Durago's special sauce! Is it similar to what has been reported by Eurogamer regarding Orbis?


I have a feeling these machines were similar in power in 2012 but then Sony decided to step up their game.

 

[pieatorium]

Which is powered by the hardware. Co'mon.
You make hardware that can power the screen you put on the system. Thats efficient and also gives a better image quality overall.

Uncharted is sub-res.
Little Big Planet is sub-res.
Gravity Rush is sub-res.

The hardware is a poor match for the intended output. Its just bad. How much Vita software is at native resolution? Its tiny. Not to mention the first party games listed above.

You can't have first party games sub-res and not say its the hardware limitations. You can't.
Vita is bad hardware. Its a fact.


Orbis meanwhile has me surprisingly excited. It sounds very efficient, whilst Durango sounds like some very bad trade offs took place.

So if they put a cheaper lower res screen and had ganes at the exact same resolutions they are now then the hardware would be better?

 

[jeff_rigby]

No fucking way ray tracing is in next gen consoles.

But anyway, it might interest you Jeff, that Eric Mejdrich is the Sr Director of SOC Architecture and Principal Architect.Xbox at Microsoft

Some Ray tracing will be in next generation and most of his patents/papers deal with Vector processors (Cell, Mini-cell, Spurs, GPGPU) and methods to parallel process Ray tracing as well as optimizations, most of which are obvious like keeping the last frame in memory and only updating the parts that change. This massively reduces the work in some scenes. I posted a summary of his patents on NeoGAF last week.

That Eric Mejdrich was hired by Microsoft means they are preparing software for Ray tracing and perhaps putting together hardware that can do real time Ray Tracing. Next Xbox4 development starting now anyone?

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

So they can use ray tracing to help with real time lighting right? Is it possible that UE4 dropped their voxel lighting system because ray tracing is superior?

This is the last hope we have cause if a better solution is not found then UE4 would confirm underwhelming specs.

I think both consoles should have some sauce dedicated purely on lighting as its a huge part of games and would lower development costs. I'm not too worried about physics and AI atm.

 

[jeff_rigby]

From uuse5 on SemiAccurate

There should be no question of Amkor involvement with consoles anymore. This is from an old investor presentation report from Nov last year, but I don't recall seeing it posted before.

From June 2012 presentation

GPS and FM radio in a Game console??

PDF from Oct 2011
Page 2
Si Interposer + DDR + Logic
GPU / CPU (28nm) notice the production date
http://sites.amd.com/la/Documents/TFE2011_001AMC.pdf

So ... Orbis APU is supposed to be the 21mm*21mm CPU/GPU on interposer mentioned on page 9 of that document? Don't know if this is the Transposer or multiple chips on transposer area?

 

[Ashes]

Not gddr5 then?

Edit: gps could them covering all bases..

 

[rdrr gnr]

Can someone link me to alleged changes Epic is making to Unreal 4?