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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
again, both handhelds are in a precarious situation, the fact that 3ds is doing better than the vita is because of the hw price, market demographics and 1st party IPs. tablets and smartphones are eating them for breakfast and it won't stop anytime soon.
they won't take "risks" on the hw internals because they don't need to, just like nintendo did and microsoft will probably do too.
i sort of "understand" what you're trying to say, but the days of exotic hardware in these machines are long gone. while microsoft and sony developed cell and xenon 7 years ago, there just is no need in the current marketplace. having cell 2 and xenon 2 won't help microsoft and sony in any way.
this generation showed that apart from one or two titles, games nowadays are so expensive to make there's no other solution than to release in all possible platforms, look at the vast majority of 3rd party games, they're on ps3/360/pc. expect the same to happen next gen. moving to a x86 architecture is actually amazing if you think about BC in the future and will probably mean a smooth transition from the typical pc lead development to console version and will ensure 3rd party support from the get-go.
the rumored specs (which are exactly that, rumors) are a significant step up from any console released so far, including the wiiU. a sony exec has expressed interest in having a large amount of internal bandwidth, the gpu is pretty powerful and recent, and the cpu is pretty capable too.
i fully expect ms and sony to be in the same ballpark regarding performance and there's nothing wrong with that. designing another cell-like processor will most likely lead us to another ps5 situation of no BC, new development learning curves and problematic ports and huge losses. why are you spending millions developing a cpu when you can use that money to have more RAM in every machine? or to just get better commodity hw?
I would argue that they were really successful despite hardware issues.
The point is, MS took advantage of Sony banked research when developing the 360. It released it's console first and consolidated it's position on this generation. Sony released the PS3 later and only now 6 years later is catching up to MS globally.
From the looks of it, it seems we're seeing the same thing again.
eighty(one)
Member
Canis lupus
Member
It had bluray, the cell, it had exotic hardware in it. What kind of results it produces is subjective, but fact is that Sony used top notch parts in the ps3, that is what made it so expensive. They're not following the same path with the Vita.
Live and PSN are easily the most important marketing tools at the start of next-gen. If they had any modest marketing savvy they would transfer PS360 Friend Lists straight over. A small system update would give PS4/720 a newer and flashier logged in notification.
Quick and extremely dirty example based on whatever google had.
Old console users keep traditional notifications.
Users logging in with new-gen consoles get something a little different.
Obviously my example is poor, but something different that catches the eye as exemplified by the November TotM.
Real next gen box art? (Mobile download warning) - THREAD OF THE MONTH
So what? That's besides the point. I play primary on the PS3 and there's no arguing that Sony is still the biggest loser this generation.
I don't really care about sales, I'm not a shareholder of any of the hardware makers.
What I'm wondering is if MS is "stealing" Sony ideas again and implementing then better than Sony did.
Hardware wise MS engineers were just average up until now. They wanted 256mb of RAM until Epic schooled then. They had to resort to Sony/IBM tech to design their processor. Not to mention the RROD fiasco like eighty(one) remembered. If you go back even further the original Xbox was mostly regular PC parts put up together. There was little customization there.
I really don't expect the 720 to be anything exceptional. And from the looks of it the PS4 won't be either.
Again, the question is if MS is closely paying attention to what Sony is doing and acting accordingly.
AranhaHunter
Banned
I thought about that for an eventual relaunch, but no way in hell do they release a playstation tablet that plays all that + vita games on an android machine, or even a dual boot android/vita os machine. PSM can already be played on a rooted android machine and it would just be a matter of time before vita was completely hacked and compromised. No, if sony was to do a playstation tablet, it would be based on the vita OS which is expandable to other platforms according to them. It would have a paltry app store and a lack of an MP3/Music store, which would be a major minus, but if they aggressively pursue non game apps for psmobile/vita, make further improvements to the OS and browser, get their mp3 music store that's exclusive to australia ww (dat company synergy), integrated with music unlimited and psn, and target the device mainly gamers they should be ok relaunching vita on a tablet, but they would have to do a refresh every year or so with new chips and whatnot as is usual with tablets.
Generation changes is a risky time for that though. If they don't have BC then you're basically starting from scratch, you have no critical mass already using LIVE on the new console. Players might see a Sony console with free online at a similar price and jump ship.
That's Sony's problem though, piracy issues and such, people don't care about those (actually they care...in the opposite sense
). What people want is pretty much clear and Sony like very other company has to deal with it. The Android platform with its apps right now is the big thing for mobile products aimed at the global market, a Playstation tablet with an eventual dual boot (Android and proprietary OS for Playstation) would be a much better product with much better chances of success than the Vita which is the usual proprietary gaming handheld, too pricey to get kids on board, with not enough games to get all the gamers on board and not enough functionalities to be considered an alternative to an Android tablet, hence the sales failure so far.
Sony has acknowledged it, the only fact they have created the Playstation certified Android tablets means that they know the market situation, the problem is that their message is weak and confusing, they have to take the next bold step, making a full Playstation device compatible with non proprietary platforms. Solving the potential business issues is their job.
thehypocrite
Member
No. Is the site banned?
http://www.*************************/2012/12/05/ps4-specs-blowout-gpgpu-directx11-sony-london-set-the-bar-industry-global-illumination-instant-radiosity-more/
Edit: Yep. Unless another source posts some details is better not to give much attention to it. *Wrong*
Edit2: it's a good article, that's well sourced, read it.
doctorstrange
Neo Member
Except all the information in it is from job listings, linkedins etc, rather than an anonymous source. So even if you don't trust/like the site, you can follow the links in it yourself and see it there.
-the writer of said piece
bigboss370
Member
GPGPU? interesting >_>
PS1, PS2 and PS3 were successful based on the software developers that made games for these systems. The PS4 doesn't need a gimmick, it just needs to be attractive enough for the likes of Bethesda, Bioware, Rockstar, etc.
As long as Sony locks in the three keys-
1. Power
2. Affordability
3. Games
They will be fine.
Psychotext
Member
I was under the impression everyone will be using GPGPUs.
thehypocrite
Member
Actually everything in the article is well sourced, I liked the information in the article and it's consistent with the expected actions for a new harware launch.
I only dislike that it was split in 3 pages and my auto-pager extension didn't trigger on it, but its a good article IMO.
AranhaHunter
Banned
That's Sony's problem though, piracy issues and such, people don't care about those (actually they care...in the opposite sense
What people want is pretty much clear and Sony like very other company has to deal with it. The Android platform with its apps right now is the big thing for mobile products aimed at the global market, a Playstation tablet with an eventual dual boot (Android and proprietary OS for Playstation) would be a much better product with much better chances of success than the Vita which is the usual proprietary gaming handheld, too pricey to get kids on board, with not enough games to get all the gamers on board and not enough functionalities to be considered an alternative to an Android tablet, hence the sales failure so far.
Sony has acknowledged it, the only fact they have created the Playstation certified Android tablets means that they know the market situation, the problem is that their message is weak and confusing, they have to take the next bold step, making a full Playstation device compatible with non proprietary platforms. Solving the potential business issues is their job.
I agree and disagree with you. A playstation tablet and smartphone is the way forward. It would need yearly refreshes and is a different model than the dedicated handheld market. I just don't think sony will go with android for that. I really don't. I don't see them leaving android for their other tablets and smartphones, but I don't see them using it for a hypothetical ps tablet/phone. They kinda did with the xperia play and that was a major bomb.
doctorstrange
Neo Member
Glad you liked it! Yeah, I hate page splits as well, haha, so I rarely use them. But it looked crazy long without it.
GPGPU will be a standard feature, that is why more silicon will be given to the GPU compared to the CPU in the next gen consoles. GPUs are now capable of handling tasks that traditionally were done by CPUs.
The Cell processor had a similar but opposite philosophy with the SPEs, graphical tasks could be offloaded to specific units inside the CPU.
Comparing the PS3 design to a next gen console design SPEs should be considered to be part of the GPU instead of the CPU. That is why the PS4 CPU should be compared to the PPU only while the GPU will take most of the flops share.
thehypocrite
Member
Yeah I think it could look like that. Well I was checking to see if we could create a new thread about this article, it seems that using your article as a source is frowned upon, but we could post the info using the job postings, etc.
doctorstrange
Neo Member
But then I get no sweet, sweet credit
and every site out there links GAF, which has happened hundreds of times. Very depressing and just perpetuates the problems with games journalism.I have no idea why we're banned (happened before I joined and took over), we're an established site that I'd like to think makes up less shit than most.
thehypocrite
Member
But then I get no sweet, sweet credit
I have no idea why we're banned (happened before I joined and took over), we're an established site that I'd like to think makes up less shit than most.
I know, I think it happened some years ago (2?) because of some shady news. However I think this article has valid info, it's too bad that a thread cannot be created using the site as a source.
yurinka
Member
Great article, interesting and more credible than random rumors based on annonymous leaks.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yep if anything it's more like these are certain things you can expect in next gen consoles article.
Which is not bad at all .
But the Xperia Play is just the same of the Playstation Certified Tablets.
It's just Sony understanding that they have to move on with their mobile products while corporate issues (the individual interests of the gaming division in this case) prevented them to take the bold steps necessary to make successful products. Those products ended up being confusing, weak and basically sent to die.
Sony failed with their portable music readers 10 years ago because their music division was against digital music for piracy issues, while their engineers refused to embrace the market standard (mp3) to promote their own in house solution (atrac3).
Now it's kinda the same with the Playstation division involved, Vita should have been an Android tablet device with the full Playstation experience running on it (PS1, PS2, PlayStation Network, next gen portable games), a digital music store and a Google partnership.
Unfortunately the gaming division management refused the idea to lose the full control of their platform, adopting free market standards and ended up with a traditional proprietary product with very limited commercial appeal and a hardware full of unexploited potential.
But the point is that sooner or later they have to move on, it's either adapt or die.
Moon Walk
shinra-bansho
Member
Brand, software, services.
Hmm. Making up "less shit than most" is no different than making up "more" shit than most. Don't make shit up at all...But then I get no sweet, sweet credit
I have no idea why we're banned (happened before I joined and took over), we're an established site that I'd like to think makes up less shit than most.
.
doctorstrange
Neo Member
Well it was meant to be a joke... but yeah, we don't run rumors from unnamed sources at all.
Still reading, sounds interesting. The writing format for some reason reminds me Jeff Rigby
Why would "news" from a banned site be posted?
doctorstrange
Neo Member
Jeff Rigby is my middle name. Makes for an awfully confusing passport unfortunately.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Instant Radiosity? That's my favourite thing!
So, this whole rumor that MS and Sony are using the same CPU is ridiculous, where did it come from?
Both Dev kits use completely different CPUs to hit their target specs, A10 in Sony and an 8core 16thread dual cpu set up for Microsoft @ 1.6GHz (this excludes AMD in the dev kit, but they are building Microsoft a CUSTOM CPU from most rumors). Of course both Sony and Microsoft are using custom silicon, but it's impossible for those custom parts to be the same unless Microsoft and Sony work together. They commissioned AMD to make them CPUs, those designs will be licensed to Sony and Microsoft separately and barred from use on competitive hardware.
When has Microsoft used anything but custom designs, especially after the Xbox. Why would they change that now? Microsoft probably wants to put some DX12 functionality in their GPU like Xenos had some DX10 functions, certainly nothing you could find on PCs for another year or two.
And if Microsoft is running 2CPUs with a total of 8cores with 16threads right now, that means an Intel or IBM is in those dev boxes. It's literally impossible for AMD off the shelf atm, so until custom hardware is done in the next couple months, Microsoft is using like 2 server 4 cores down clocked to 1.6GHz from either Intel or IBM that have SMT.
I am sorry that I'm just throwing a wrench into the speculation going on right now, but it's just a bit ridiculous given real rumors that have been flying around. Where does this 16core Sony rumor even come from? the first I heard of it was a few pages back when Jeff told me that it was possible.
Speculation =! rumor.
Both Dev kits use completely different CPUs to hit their target specs, A10 in Sony and an 8core 16thread dual cpu set up for Microsoft @ 1.6GHz (this excludes AMD in the dev kit, but they are building Microsoft a CUSTOM CPU from most rumors). Of course both Sony and Microsoft are using custom silicon, but it's impossible for those custom parts to be the same unless Microsoft and Sony work together. They commissioned AMD to make them CPUs, those designs will be licensed to Sony and Microsoft separately and barred from use on competitive hardware.
When has Microsoft used anything but custom designs, especially after the Xbox. Why would they change that now? Microsoft probably wants to put some DX12 functionality in their GPU like Xenos had some DX10 functions, certainly nothing you could find on PCs for another year or two.
And if Microsoft is running 2CPUs with a total of 8cores with 16threads right now, that means an Intel or IBM is in those dev boxes. It's literally impossible for AMD off the shelf atm, so until custom hardware is done in the next couple months, Microsoft is using like 2 server 4 cores down clocked to 1.6GHz from either Intel or IBM that have SMT.
I am sorry that I'm just throwing a wrench into the speculation going on right now, but it's just a bit ridiculous given real rumors that have been flying around. Where does this 16core Sony rumor even come from? the first I heard of it was a few pages back when Jeff told me that it was possible.
Speculation =! rumor.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
I still don't quite understand why Microsoft is allegedly taking the opposite approach next-gen by having a crazy CPU design.
Kinect + Windows 8 or Windows RT,
dragonelite
Member
It is more like a overview of next gen buzzwords and wikipedia snip its and other paper articles.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Next-gen kinect and windows 8 are going to require that much of a CPU?
shinra-bansho
Member
Jeff Rigby, afaik.
I may be recalling incorrectly, but iirc, Xenon is essentially a tri-core modified Cell PPE...
So it's not like one of them hasn't been played before in this regard.
True, but PPE's were an IBM design, Cell in fact was a collaboration between a few companies, here is what Wiki says about PPE.
Power Processor Element (PPE)
The PPE is the Power Architecture based, two-way multithreaded core acting as the controller for the eight SPEs, which handle most of the computational workload. The PPE will work with conventional operating systems due to its similarity to other 64-bit PowerPC processors, while the SPEs are designed for vectorized floating point code execution. The PPE contains a 64 KiB level 1 cache (32 KiB instruction and a 32 KiB data) and a 512 KiB Level 2 cache. The size of a cache line is 128 bytes. Additionally, IBM has included an AltiVec unit which is fully pipelined for single precision floating point. (Altivec does not support double precision floating-point vectors.) Each PPE can complete two double precision operations per clock cycle using a scalar-fused multiply-add instruction, which translates to 6.4 GFLOPS at 3.2 GHz; or eight single precision operations per clock cycle with a vector fused-multiply-add instruction, which translates to 25.6 GFLOPS at 3.2 GHz.
Xenon in Xbox 360
The PPE was designed specifically for the Cell processor but during development, Microsoft approached IBM wanting a high performance processor core for its Xbox 360. IBM complied and made the tri-core Xenon processor, based on a slightly modified version of the PPE.
So while Sony might be able to use some similar CPU cores, they will not be able to use the Design that Microsoft has licensed AMD to create for them.
Well, assuming the 8-core rumour has any truth in it, it's either a powerA2 or 2 pack of Jaguar cores. IMO, there's nothing crazy about them.
It's 16 threads, so... for AMD that is a minimum of 4 jaguar packages, of course the real problem is that Microsoft's CPU is doing stuff we are not expecting PS4's to do. (windows integration) So 2 to 4 AMD cores (2 to 4 threads) for the OS.
phosphor112
Banned
I said god damn.
jeff_rigby
Banned
According to Sony, the PS4 front end, what in the PS3 is the XMB, browser, apps etc., will be running under a thin Linux kernel which could be a Gnome mobile Linux with Wayland back end and HTML5 javascript engine all with support for OpenCL, OpenGL and HSA IL. Gameside Sony has said they will stay with what they are currently using or FreeBSD-64 bit.
I don't see a difference between Windows 8 and eLinux as far as CPU use is concerned. It could be that X86 CPUs are going to be paired with GPU CUs to prefetch like PPU is paired with SPEs in Cell or in IBM's Roadrunner super computer pairing AMD X86 CPUs with cell.
For sure there has to be a X86 processor running a virtual engine to convert HSAIL code into code that can be used by all the processors in the SoC. At a minimum I can see a need for more than 4 but probably less than 8 X86 CPUs and we still have voice and all the video recognition that is going to happen.
I think it was already "basically confirmed" that the early Durango dev kits are using two 4-cores Xeon.
I remember Proelite stating that maybe a few cores will be replaced by different hardware in the more advanced dev kits / final hardware