They'll both be SoCs I reckon. It's just Sony makes hardware, you know? Big territorial advantage.
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VGLeaks: Durango's Move Engines
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
They'll both be SoCs I reckon. It's just Sony makes hardware, you know? Big territorial advantage.
phosphor112
Banned
It doesn't mean developers like the high DirectX overhead. Many of the PC devs that push their games to the edge start on OpenGL and then port over to DirectX.
A byproduct advantage is that the GPU/CPU have access to a small chunk of lower latency memory, ex-cache. And that can be useful in some situations, if you're juggling your data well.
But there is zero doubt in mind that having a large amount of memory was the starting point that informed so much of the rest of the design. And - yes - the cost of a simpler, faster memory setup with that amount of memory would be a pretty big deal.
My x360 doesn't do this.
Bah. See, this is why I hate the Xbox 360 > Xbox 720 naming system.
I really hope they call it Xbox 8, but with a snazy power on logo where the 8 rotates into an infinity symbol.
thank you for this.
dragonelite
Member
Any sources on these evidences?
As far as i have heard dx 10 fixed most of dx9 and previous overheads bringing it close to OpenGL.
Partners are good sure. See Google getting galaxy nexus from Samsung, versus Apple, Sony, Samsung doing their own thing.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Correct. 4GBs GDDR5 is pretty standard and APUs/GPUs are built to use it. Stacking probably won't for a long time.
Its a game of trade-offs. The advantage is the volume of RAM they can easily implement. But its lifts the complexity quite a bit to get acceptable bandwidth.
Haha, Proelite was really trolling both sides. I am sure he is very happy with what he accomplished.
Seemed more like Aegies and he didn't understand what they were reading. At least Aegies was upfront about it.
seattle6418
Member
Awesome explanation. This should be in every OP concerning RAM.
That's all the non tech heads need to know to understand everything.
Sony ICE Team > Microsoft DirectX Team, in my opinion.
phosphor112
Banned
Off the top of my head, Valve does this with all of their releases. Hell, run their game in DirectX then in OpenGL. 9 times out of 10, it'll run better in Open. Carmack and iD have openly endorsed OpenGL over DirectX as well.
Anyway this is off topic.
Can Crusher
Banned
I don't see how Sony is doing anything different from MS. You have to explain that to me.
They both are using 3rd party base tech. So I don't understand how Google and the whole phone business serves as a parallel here.
The boilerplate memory and compression/decompression operations are 'pre-programmed' but naturally enough programmers will still have to decide how/when to shuffle data around. Which is the harder, application-specific thing. It won't be a painfree thing, at least to do really optimally, in sophisticated use-cases.
Vol5
Member
Perhaps not in chip design specifically, but in overall product design and component efficiently, Sony know their shit.
Hmm I see...If the PS3 had them, I would assume the PS4 would too? We don't know that for sure, but maybe it's because it's such an ubiquitous feature it's mostly not worth mention, while it's new-ish on Durango?
This. They simply wanted a large capacity RAM. The eSRAM and the DMEs are there for efficient usage of bandwidth along with their side benefits.
Can Crusher
Banned
What is the basis for this?
Nintendo is the one who is all about component efficiency, not Sony. I just think it's weird people start making judgement like this based on the simple theory that "Sony makes TVs and Phones, MS doesn't so Sony is just much better at making hardware for gaming purposes".
It's like saying, because MS is a software company then the software in Durango will just be way better, and the tools and etc.
It doesn't quite work like that.
Nice!
& speaking of the PS4 having some of the same concepts one of the Move Engines seems to be the same as the 'Zlib Decompression Hardware' in the PS4
This too.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Its more of a latency gain if anything.
First thing I saw when I google John Carmack directx vs opengl:
Carmack: Direct3D Now Better Than OpenGL
iamshadowlark
Banned
Skimming out on money isn't what I would call component efficiency. Also sony makes alot more than that, namely game consoles. Thats the basis.
Apologies for picking up on it. IIRC the marketing team decided to call the machine the Xbox 360, because it put the gamer at the center. And not as some theorised not to look a generation behind.
ps3
X360
I guess if the latter is true,
they'd go for:
ps4
XB8
And marketing would spin that as saying with XB8 you can do an infinity amount of things or something.
These names are bull crap though. It's more about branding. Which is why Wii works, and wiiu does nothing. 3ds just confused a lot of consumers.
Iphone 3 sold well as did iphone 4. Galaxy 2 sold well as did galaxy 3.
PS vita is meh of name too. With marketing bull attached to it about Vita and symbolising their intent etc. I do love though that some people thought PSV stand ps5 as it is their fifth console.
PS4 should be called PS4 in my opinion and not some PSVi or orbis or some other bullshit.
dragonelite
Member
Anyone got number on gddr5 and ddr3 latency times maybe someone can calculate some stuff maybe i can do it. Or is it insignificant and already counted into the 170GB/S vs 720 bandwidth numbers. Because i am told latency times are like TollBooth at highways(bandwidth)?
Thats also a big reason why ssd are quick the access times are really low compared to disk based hdd.
Or im being told bullshit
Thats also a big reason why ssd are quick the access times are really low compared to disk based hdd.
Or im being told bullshit
phosphor112
Banned
OpenGL has gotten a lot better since 2011.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows
Once again though, this is OT, so I probably won't go any further.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I don't think you should use how many pounds the truck could carry. PS4 would be able to carry about twice as much as 720 per load not vice versa. 720s advantage would probably be latency, meaning that maybe they would have a easier road to travel. Idk your alot better with the analogies than I am, but latency means that there is less delay trip-to-trip.
Edit: better yet use the pounds, PS4 8000/720 4000 and get rid of the mph because they arrive at the same time. 720 can leave to get more faster, but they still go the same speed.
You don't see how that example was in support of your argument. i.e. a software company doing well with partners who know the hardware business?
There is more to a console than just a gpu from AMD and ram from Samsung. There were 1700 parts + in the x360 alone.
What I was saying was that Sony as a business is more set up to do this kind of manufacturing, it's their forte, with their contacts, speciality, engineers, at least more than Microsoft. All they can do is throw money at it.
Having said that, Microsoft do have the money, and so can partner up to face up to Sony to some extent. Even so, the ps3 bom went down so much faster than the x360.
phosphor112
Banned
Latency would be the "break" in between driving and the destination of un/loading.
Source uses DX8 or 9 right? 2011 and later stuff has nothing to do with those results, lol.
But it is off topic.
On topic, these architectural leaks certainly don't place the two systems in "a wash" territory as devs have been saying in recent months. Curious as to why they have been saying such.
Can Crusher
Banned
You don't see how that example was in support of your argument. i.e. a software company doing well with partners who know the hardware business?
There is more to a console than just a gpu from AMD and ram from Samsung. There were 1700 parts + in the x360 alone.
What I was saying was that Sony as a business is more set up to do this kind of manufacturing, it's their forte, with their contacts, speciality, engineers, at least more than Microsoft. All they can do is throw money at it.
Having said that, Microsoft do have the money, and so can partner up to face up to Sony to some extent. Even so, the ps3 bom went down so much faster than the x360.
Is the Ps3 a soc by now?
it's DirectX 8! they hacked 9b then 9c features into it later, but the renderer still was made on Directx 8! circa 2002!
phosphor112
Banned
No, still two separate chips. They won't go SoC, we'd likely just see a decrease in size. According to Digital Foundry, Cell is supposed to hit 22nm in the future.
Can Crusher
Banned
Well there you go.
Xbox 360 is a SoC on a chip. Does that mean MS knows more about hardware? No, of course not.
In the same way that Sony has every legitimate chance of delivering great tools and services that are on par with MS, so does the opposite is true in hardware. The key difference comes down to design decisions, made on priorities they had.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Xbox being a Soc doesn't mean anything really. There are factors that prevent the PS3 from becoming one. Cell is still pretty complex...
phosphor112
Banned
Interesting enough, the PS3 Super Slim uses less energy than the SoC 360.
The cell itself isn't the hard part at all, it's the memory controller, which just needs a bit of work to fix.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yeah, cell itself has to use XDR, which means Sony has to split pools. Among other things like Cell being a defunct design.
Angelus Errare
Banned
GPU/CPU would be bandwidth starved if they did. With that stated this really doesn't help nullify the bandwidth advantage Orbis has. =\
I see. X360 was a SoC at 45nm in 2011 when pretty much the entire industry was already there for a while now.
What you should be thinking about is that whilst they were doing that Sony were making preparations for stacking in Vita in 2012.
Sony have their own fab. They will along with others spend hundreds of millions on such R&D because they are more dependent on stacking, 2.5d tsv 3d etc. They make everything from smartphones to consoles. It's their bread and butter.
Cell and RSX are quite a bit more complicated to put in a SoC, and last I heard they were rumoured to had skipped a gen and going for 22nm. Will be interesting to see if that is a SoC or not.
And then we have this:
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows
EDIT: beaten
NemesisPrime
Banned
On consoles there is no DirectX overhead like on PC. All the code that does error checking is removed due to uniform hardware. The 360 DX version is super lean compared to anything on PC. BTW you are full of shit on the OpenGL thing.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Not for this kind of stuff. Sony's fabs are dedicated to image processing chips and image sensors. For general purpose processors Sony have a long term partnership with Toshiba (who make the the Vita SoC as well as 45nm Cell).
Can Crusher
Banned
Exactly, Sony didn't simply overcome the difficulties of making a SoC ps3 just because they are Sony.
Sony's factories aren't better than the Digital foundries and TmScs and Ibms of the world. That's the point I'm making. Hell they even sold their Cell factories to Toshiba.
Also it doesn't impact the design of these systems at all, specially when you consider that MS is apparently making the most complex board.
I don't see how what I'm saying is far fetched, nobody seems to have a similar problem with the whole software angle.
The pounds were supposed to point out the difference in memory capacity, the bandwidth gap is expressed in the massive difference MPH, which is where the PS4 doubles up (and then some) the 720.
I didn't incorporate request latency in it because then it's getting pretty convoluted, but for this analogy that'd more or less equate to how long it takes you to originally pack the truck for it's destination, which yes, is slower with 720 as well, but again, something the Move Engines could probably help speed up a bit.
It's not a perfect analogy, just a rough to let people understand the concept, at least as I interpret it. Basically, MS is well aware that their DDR3 choice is an anchor to the rest of the system and are going out of their way to implement a grab bag of solutions to improve it (ESRam and Move Engines being the two we know about).
No amount of patching will catch them up to DDR5, otherwise someone would have already done this in the GPU market and avoided the costs of DDR5 all together. This is just trying to mask a deficiency. It's up to MS to prove that their need for 8 GB of ram, forcing them into DDR3, was the right choice.
This happens every generation. First parties make unique choices and then need to justify them. Sony made the first CD based console and justified it. They did the same with the first DVD based console. Then they made the first Blu-Ray console and failed royally.
Nintendo needed to justify sticking with cartridges for the N64 and waiting for 64 bit instead of making a 32 bit cosole and failed, tried to justify motion controllers for the Wii and succeeded, and are now trying to justify the Wii U tablet without much initial success.
MS needed to justify the massive hardware premium and XBL Gold fees with the original Xbox with horrible sales results but gaining a core base who are now very loyal. They then furthered their XBL Gold agenda and have continued to work on justifying that, with most of their core demographic being fans. Then they released Kinect and while it's seen ok retail success the validation is still lukewarm at best to most gamers. With Xbox 720 they're now tasked with justifying 8 GB of DDR3, a multimedia focus, and likely Kinect 2 in every box.
This is the beauty of new hardware. Despite the PS4 and X720 have a similar originating hardware the end goals of each manufacturer are very far apart. This is real, meaningful differentiation. I think that's great because the last thing I want is another PS3/360 generation where outside of first party titles and a handful of exclusives the two systems are basically twins. I'll buy both so I want both to provide unique services, not a cookie cutter template of "next gen" that makes it an "either/or" choice where I end up buying one, playing the exclusives, and then offloading it. Nintendo already makes me do that.
*nods in agreement*