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[RoboPlato]

No. In layman's terms it's basically this (according to my interpretation):

You're moving to a new house, packing up everything you own and making a few trips to the new place to get it all moved.

With the PS4's solution, DDR5, you basically have a box truck that drives 70 mph everywhere all the time and can hold 4,000 pounds of your shit in a trip. When you get to your destination you need to unpack all of this shit too, at 1.8 tons an hour.

With the Xbox 360 you have a big box truck that can carry 8,000 pounds of your shit but it only drives at 28 mph. You also have a car that can carry 320 pounds of your shit and can drive at 41 mph. Once you get to your destination you have to unpack all your shit at only 1.2 tons an hour, but thankfully when you go to unpack your shit is already being sorted for you by a friend outside, helping to organize how you're receiving the stuff you unpack inside.

The Move Engines are that friend. They aren't going to do any of the unpacking (read: processing). They aren't going to carry any of your shit to the new place (read: memory). They just make everything run more smoothly, helping to reduce snags and bottlenecks.

If you were very diligent in how you packed either box truck you reduce the need for such a friend, but it's sure nice to have them no matter what. Chances are the PS4 will have some level of this same concept as well, though likely not to the same extent that MS is incorporating, since MS needs some way to get over the DDR3 bottleneck.

I'd say it's a further complication resulting from MS wanting 8 GB of memory and therefore going with clearly too slow DDR3. Move Engines, ESRam, etc. are all attempts to patch over that deficiency. This is also likely why MS is running them pre-programmed, because making developers have to manage this to avoid a bottleneck the PS4 doesn't have would be a pain in the ass.

This is an excellent post. It takes real skill and knowledge to be able to come up with this clear of a metaphor for complicated tech stuff.

 

[phosphor112]

Exactly, Sony didn't simply overcome the difficulties of making a SoC ps3 just because they are Sony.

Sony's factories aren't better than the Digital foundries and TmScs and Ibms of the world. That's the point I'm making. Hell they even sold their Cell factories to Toshiba.

Also it doesn't impact the design of these systems at all, specially when you consider that MS is apparently making the most complex board.

I don't see how what I'm saying is far fetched, nobody seems to have a similar problem with the whole software angle.

They bought it back 2 years ago. They made a profit on that deal.

Not for this kind of stuff. Sony's fabs are dedicated to image processing chips and image sensors. For general purpose processors Sony have a long term partnership with Toshiba (who make the the Vita SoC as well as 45nm Cell).

See my post. ^^

EDIT: Here is the link just for shits.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/22/sony-buys-back-toshibas-cell-plant-for-50-billion-yen-makes-a/

 

[Can Crusher]

This is the beauty of new hardware. Despite the PS4 and X720 have a similar originating hardware the end goals of each manufacturer are very far apart. This is real, meaningful differentiation. I think that's great because the last thing I want is another PS3/360 generation where outside of first party titles and a handful of exclusives the two systems are basically twins. I'll buy both so I want both to provide unique services, not a cookie cutter template of "next gen" that makes it an "either/or" choice where I end up buying one, playing the exclusives, and then offloading it. Nintendo already makes me do that.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

They bought it back 2 years ago. They made a profit on that deal.

Well ain't Sony showing some biz skills, they also made a lot of profit on that property in Manhattan. Anyway, I'm just trying to exemplify how things aren't as black and white as some make it seem. All Sony needs is to either contract a talented software company or hire and form a talented software (tools etc) team and they will be delivering something that is on par with MS, as long as the right resources are put into it. Same goes for hardware.

People with knowledge go from one company to the other all the time, it's all about how much resources a company is willing to put in and what are their priorities.

See my post. ^^

EDIT: Here is the link just for shits.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/22/sony-buys-back-toshibas-cell-plant-for-50-billion-yen-makes-a/

Your link kind says what zomg said.

 

[FunnyBunny]

No. In layman's terms it's basically this (according to my interpretation):

You're moving to a new house, packing up everything you own and making a few trips to the new place to get it all moved.

With the PS4's solution, DDR5, you basically have a box truck that drives 70 mph everywhere all the time and can hold 4,000 pounds of your shit in a trip. When you get to your destination you need to unpack all of this shit too, at 1.8 tons an hour.

With the Xbox 360 you have a big box truck that can carry 8,000 pounds of your shit but it only drives at 28 mph. You also have a car that can carry 320 pounds of your shit and can drive at 41 mph. Once you get to your destination you have to unpack all your shit at only 1.2 tons an hour, but thankfully when you go to unpack your shit is already being sorted for you by a friend outside, helping to organize how you're receiving the stuff you unpack inside.

The Move Engines are that friend. They aren't going to do any of the unpacking (read: processing). They aren't going to carry any of your shit to the new place (read: memory). They just make everything run more smoothly, helping to reduce snags and bottlenecks.

If you were very diligent in how you packed either box truck you reduce the need for such a friend, but it's sure nice to have them no matter what. Chances are the PS4 will have some level of this same concept as well, though likely not to the same extent that MS is incorporating, since MS needs some way to get over the DDR3 bottleneck.

I'd say it's a further complication resulting from MS wanting 8 GB of memory and therefore going with clearly too slow DDR3. Move Engines, ESRam, etc. are all attempts to patch over that deficiency. This is also likely why MS is running them pre-programmed, because making developers have to manage this to avoid a bottleneck the PS4 doesn't have would be a pain in the ass.

You sir, are my hero. Thank you for a such a wonderful analogy.

 

[sangreal]

This is the beauty of new hardware. Despite the PS4 and X720 have a similar originating hardware the end goals of each manufacturer are very far apart. This is real, meaningful differentiation. I think that's great because the last thing I want is another PS3/360 generation where outside of first party titles and a handful of exclusives the two systems are basically twins. I'll buy both so I want both to provide unique services, not a cookie cutter template of "next gen" that makes it an "either/or" choice where I end up buying one, playing the exclusives, and then offloading it. Nintendo already makes me do that.

couldn't agree more

 

[mrklaw]

This is an excellent post. It takes real skill and knowledge to be able to come up with this clear of a metaphor for complicated tech stuff.

I think the only adjustment I'd give would be that its your house which has 8,000/4,000 pounds of stuff you can move. Trucks give speed but they can't carry all of it at once - otherwise the big Durango truck would take twice as long to arrive but it'd deliver twice as much, so overall speed is effectively the same (which it isn't)

 

[Screenboy]

How many Gameboys is this?

 

[phosphor112]

Your link kind says what zomg said.

His post says Toshiba makes the 45nm Cell. They don't, Sony does.

 

[Can Crusher]

His post says Toshiba makes the 45nm Cell. They don't, Sony does.

Oh ok, I was thinking about the whole Image sensors(it does say the factory was going to be re purposed). My bad.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

They bought it back 2 years ago. They made a profit on that deal.



See my post. ^^

EDIT: Here is the link just for shits.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/22/sony-buys-back-toshibas-cell-plant-for-50-billion-yen-makes-a/

They bought it back to use for image sensors and image processing chips. There was no information given in the press release to suggest that they would use the newly bought foundries for anything other than image sensors and processors.

The fact that Toshiba make the Vita SoC should tell you everything you need to know about their fabrication capacity for general purpose CPUs.

His post says Toshiba makes the 45nm Cell. They don't, Sony does.

Toshiba still do. Sony source Cell from Toshiba and IBM. They do not produce any themselves and have not done so since the early production at 90nm.

 

[phosphor112]

They bought it back to use for image sensors and image processing chips. There was no information given in the press release to suggest that they would use the newly bought foundries for anything other than image sensors and processors.

The fact that Toshiba make the Vita SoC should tell you everything you need to know about their fabrication capacity for general purpose CPUs.

I don't think Toshiba still owns any Cell plants... there isn't much information but that was the impression I was under.

They still do. Sony source Cell from Toshiba and IBM. They do not produce any themselves and have not done so since the early production at 90nm.

I thought IBM stopped producing Cells in like 2009, including Blade Cells.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The pounds were supposed to point out the difference in memory capacity, the bandwidth gap is expressed in the massive difference MPH, which is where the PS4 doubles up (and then some) the 720.

I didn't incorporate request latency in it because then it's getting pretty convoluted, but for this analogy that'd more or less equate to how long it takes you to originally pack the truck for it's destination, which yes, is slower with 720 as well, but again, something the Move Engines could probably help speed up a bit.

It's not a perfect analogy, just a rough to let people understand the concept, at least as I interpret it. Basically, MS is well aware that their DDR3 choice is an anchor to the rest of the system and are going out of their way to implement a grab bag of solutions to improve it (ESRam and Move Engines being the two we know about).

No amount of patching will catch them up to DDR5, otherwise someone would have already done this in the GPU market and avoided the costs of DDR5 all together. This is just trying to mask a deficiency. It's up to MS to prove that their need for 8 GB of ram, forcing them into DDR3, was the right choice.

This happens every generation. First parties make unique choices and then need to justify them. Sony made the first CD based console and justified it. They did the same with the first DVD based console. Then they made the first Blu-Ray console and failed royally.

Nintendo needed to justify sticking with cartridges for the N64 and waiting for 64 bit instead of making a 32 bit cosole and failed, tried to justify motion controllers for the Wii and succeeded, and are now trying to justify the Wii U tablet without much initial success.

MS needed to justify the massive hardware premium and XBL Gold fees with the original Xbox with horrible sales results but gaining a core base who are now very loyal. They then furthered their XBL Gold agenda and have continued to work on justifying that, with most of their core demographic being fans. Then they released Kinect and while it's seen ok retail success the validation is still lukewarm at best to most gamers. With Xbox 720 they're now tasked with justifying 8 GB of DDR3, a multimedia focus, and likely Kinect 2 in every box.

This is the beauty of new hardware. Despite the PS4 and X720 have a similar originating hardware the end goals of each manufacturer are very far apart. This is real, meaningful differentiation. I think that's great because the last thing I want is another PS3/360 generation where outside of first party titles and a handful of exclusives the two systems are basically twins. I'll buy both so I want both to provide unique services, not a cookie cutter template of "next gen" that makes it an "either/or" choice where I end up buying one, playing the exclusives, and then offloading it. Nintendo already makes me do that.

I kind of see where you're going, but it would probably be better to say the 720 has a bigger house.

But yeah exciting times ahead.

 

[Drek]

I kind of see where you're going, but it would probably be better to say the 720 has a bigger house.

But yeah exciting times ahead.

Well, I view the house as the Blu-Ray, so in theory same size. I mean, that is the ultimate origin point for all the stuff.

 

[FatalMuzza]

Correct me if wrong please. DDR3 has less latency than GDDR5, but GDDR5 has more bandwidth? So latency is like ping and bandwidth is how wide the load is.

In online gaming low latency is king - small loads that are time critical. Large bandwidth a secondary factor, and certainly irrelevant over a certain threshold unless its saturated by an entire household.

So please humor me, xbox3 with lower latency Ram, supplemented further with the data move engine and the esram would make this a super fast combo for chunks of data.

The move engine and the esram seem to be tailor made for slicing and dicing things into smaller slivers. Is this Ninja like approach not superior to a slower, but heaftier Sumo arriving at the GPU's door?

 

[Jburton]

It really is opposite of last gen, seems MS has added more complication to the architecture of their machine and Sony has simplified.

 

[Shahed]

Well, I view the house as the Blu-Ray, so in theory same size. I mean, that is the ultimate origin point for all the stuff.

Wouldn't the old house be the Bluray and the new house the RAM? With both vans having the same capacity but running at different speeds?

Either way thanks for the analogy, it clears this non tech brain up a bit!

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I don't think Toshiba still owns any Cell plants... there isn't much information but that was the impression I was under.

Cell manufacturing doesn't require it's own factory. They just use bulk 45nm at their regular foundry. They sold those foundries back to Sony because at that point they were surplus to requirements as 45nm Cell had hit over 90% yields on the final spin and they had moved it to a bulk process.

I wrote a report on PS3 manufacturing for work around the time of this sale, Sony were adamant that they were not getting back into Cell fabrication, that they would continue to source from IBM and Toshiba. They were buying back those fab lines for image sensors and image processing engines only for use in their big push for APS-C sized CMOS sensors. The latter has happened.

If something has changed since then and Sony have gotten back into Cell fabrication then they haven't notified investors or changed their CapEx details to reflect a change.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

It really is opposite of last gen, seems MS has added more complication to the architecture of their machine and Sony has simplified.

Yes but in this case it would appear that most of the "complexity" is hidden\transparent to the developers, some info points to the GPU being more advanced\HSA than previously thought.....of course you won't pick up on that here at NG.

To me Durango's GPU is not looking as "off the shelf" as we once thought , not to say I think it'll be less or more powerful than Orbis(not in raw #'s thats for sure) but it doesn't seem like it's as much of an apple to apples comparison when comparing the two GPU's as we previously thought.

 

[Can Crusher]

It really is opposite of last gen, seems MS has added more complication to the architecture of their machine and Sony has simplified.

Problem is that there is not true parallel to last gen.

Sony went complicated because they wanted more power, they wanted a new answer. MS is going more complicated because they need more RAM for non gaming purposes. This according to rumors of course.

Which doesn't represent a reverse situation overall, which is why it looks bleak in a way for Durango. (exaggerated for effect)

It's going to be interesting at least to see what each design priorities will produce. Is Orbis really going to be significantly more powerful? Is Durango gonna have significantly more features?

Cell manufacturing doesn't require it's own factory. They just use bulk 45nm at their regular foundry. They sold those foundries back to Sony because at that point they were surplus to requirements as 45nm Cell had hit over 90% yields on the final spin and they had moved it to a bulk process.

I wrote a report on PS3 manufacturing for work around the time of this sale, Sony were adamant that they were not getting back into Cell fabrication, that they would continue to source from IBM and Toshiba. They were buying back those fab lines for image sensors and image processing engines only for use in their big push for APS-C sized CMOS sensors. The latter has happened.

If something has changed since then and Sony have gotten back into Cell fabrication then they haven't notified investors or changed their CapEx details to reflect a change.

If true, then it completely validates the point I was making. Suck it yall

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

Please translate these functions into DBZ moves. Are we talking Solar Flares and Destructo Disks, or Father-son Kamehamehas and Spirit Bombs?

 

[Jack_AG]

Correct me if wrong please. DDR3 has less latency than GDDR5, but GDDR5 has more bandwidth? So latency is like ping and bandwidth is how wide the load is.

In online gaming low latency is king - small loads that are time critical. Large bandwidth a secondary factor, and certainly irrelevant over a certain threshold unless its saturated by an entire household.

So please humor me, xbox3 with lower latency Ram, supplemented further with the data move engine and the esram would make this a super fast combo for chunks of data.

The move engine and the esram seem to be tailor made for slicing and dicing things into smaller slivers. Is this Ninja like approach not superior to a slower, but heaftier Sumo arriving at the GPU's door?

Eh... Latency does not replace overall throughput/speed.

 

[AgentP]

The careful reader may deduce that raw performance of the move engines is less than could be achieved by a shader reading and writing the same data. Theoretical peak rates are displayed in the following table.

Copy Operation Peak throughput using move engine(s) Peak throughput using shader
RAM ->RAM 25.6 GB/s 34 GB/s
RAM ->ESRAM 25.6 GB/s 68 GB/s
ESRAM -> RAM 25.6 GB/s 68 GB/s
ESRAM -> ESRAM 25.6 GB/s 51.2 GB/s



The advantage of the move engines lies in the fact that they can operate in parallel with computation. During times when the GPU is compute bound, move engine operations are effectively free. Even while the GPU is bandwidth bound, move engine operations may still be free if they use different pathways. For example, a move engine copy from RAM to RAM would not be impacted by a shader that only accesses ESRAM.

So a typical copy from system RAM to eSRAM would be the 68GB/s (system RAM ,the bottleneck). But the move engines can only do 25.6GB/s peak, but in parallel. I wonder how many parallel copies they are expecting to do to make up for that low peak bandwidth. I'm guessing they are hoping for 4+ at a time (102.4GB/s). It seems they might have shifted the burden of squeezing the frame buffer down into 10MB or eDRAM to parallelizing move engines to maintaining a steady stream of data and thus maintaining good frame rates.

We could see a reversal this gen. Durango devs start slow and get better and better with the system and thus an improvement as the gen goes on, versus a PS4 that is easy to squeeze out of the gate. It will bbe interesting to say the least.

 

[Ashes]

If true, then it completely validates the point I was making. Suck it yall

What? No. The opposite. Anyway, I give up. You're a hard one to reason with.

 

[Karak]

So a typical copy from system RAM to eSRAM would be the 68GB/s (system RAM ,the bottleneck). But the move engines can only do 25.6GB/s peak, but in parallel. I wonder how many parallel copies they are expecting to do to make up for that low peak bandwidth. I'm guessing they are hoping for 4+ at a time (102.4GB/s). It seems they might have shifted the burden of squeezing the frame buffer down into 10MB or eDRAM to parallelizing move engines to maintaining a steady stream of data and thus maintaining good frame rates.

We could see a reversal this gen. Durango devs start slow and get better and better with the system and thus an improvement as the gen goes on, versus a PS4 that is easy to squeeze out of the gate. It will bbe interesting to say the least.

Might be true. I do like that they mention that some of it is automatic thus requiring less management from the dev.

 

[Can Crusher]

What? No. The opposite. Anyway, I give up. You're a hard one to reason with.

Opposite?

So Sony not manufacturing its own Ps3 chips means that Sony has an advantage over MS that doesn't manufacture its own chips?

The reason why it's hard for you to reason with me is because you don't seem to be able to find the arguments to support your reasoning.

You say it's the opposite, well then explain that. Don't cop out by saying I'm difficult to reason with, since I'm not.

You just have to present to me a logical and valid reason, which you haven't yet.

 

[Drek]

Wouldn't the old house be the Bluray and the new house the RAM? With both vans having the same capacity but running at different speeds?

Either way thanks for the analogy, it clears this non tech brain up a bit!

New house would be your TV, where it's finally output to you. This is because Blu-Ray is your origination and the TV is your final destination. Everything else is how it gets from point A to point B.

The GPU and CPU are how well you can unpack your things, reaching a point of quality presentation and usability. They dictate quality of final product.

Before the GPU and CPU can do their jobs they need the resources from the disc, which is acquired from the disc via RAM. The quantity of RAM is how much can be ready for the CPU and GPU per "shipment" but bandwidth dictates how quickly it can even be delivered. This is why I have the 720 with more capacity (since it will have more RAM) but slower speed per shipment (because DDR5 smokes DDR3).

Its painfully simplified and only my inference (based on several years of being a comp. sci. major who spent more time making Lego Logo robots and lame 68k Assembly games for my Ti-89 than doing my homework, before switching to geology), but that's the concept behind it.

 

[Fox_Mulder]

Where is aegis now?

 

[Zoramon089]

Skimming out on money isn't what I would call component efficiency. Also sony makes alot more than that, namely game consoles. Thats the basis.

*Rolls eyes*
I'm not going to say they're the only one who cares but it's clear you didn't even look through the WiiU hardware threads

 

[phosphor112]

Opposite?

So Sony not manufacturing its own Ps3 chips means that Sony has an advantage over MS that doesn't manufacture its own chips?

The reason why it's hard for you to reason with me is because you don't seem to be able to find the arguments to support your reasoning.

You say it's the opposite, well then explain that. Don't cop out by saying I'm difficult to reason with, since I'm not.

You just have to present to me a logical and valid reason, which you haven't yet.

You know what, you are difficu...

Oh... okay.jpeg

Spoiler

I thought it was funny

 

[Ashes]

Opposite?

So Sony not manufacturing its own Ps3 chips means that Sony has an advantage over MS that doesn't manufacture its own chips?

The reason why it's hard for you to reason with me is because you don't seem to be able to find the arguments to support your reasoning.

You say it's the opposite, well then explain that. Don't cop out by saying I'm difficult to reason with, since I'm not.

You just have to present to me a logical and valid reason, which you haven't yet.

Did he not just show you how in bed they are with that industry? how does this go over your head?

 

[Karak]

Yes but in this case it would appear that most of the "complexity" is hidden\transparent to the developers, some info points to the GPU being more advanced\HSA than previously thought.....of course you won't pick up on that here at NG.

To me Durango's GPU is not looking as "off the shelf" as we once thought , not to say I think it'll be less or more powerful than Orbis(not in raw #'s thats for sure) but it doesn't seem like it's as much of an apple to apples comparison when comparing the two GPU's as we previously thought.

Agreed. 2 targets and 2 plans but built originally on the same overall hardware and then from their.

To continue the House example. The foundation was poured and both chose different blueprints to end up with 3 stories. It is going to be really awesome if they are both unique. I would love to have a very very valid reason to get both.

Correct me if wrong please. DDR3 has less latency than GDDR5, but GDDR5 has more bandwidth? So latency is like ping and bandwidth is how wide the load is.

In online gaming low latency is king - small loads that are time critical. Large bandwidth a secondary factor, and certainly irrelevant over a certain threshold unless its saturated by an entire household.

So please humor me, xbox3 with lower latency Ram, supplemented further with the data move engine and the esram would make this a super fast combo for chunks of data.

The move engine and the esram seem to be tailor made for slicing and dicing things into smaller slivers. Is this Ninja like approach not superior to a slower, but heaftier Sumo arriving at the GPU's door?

You bet latency matters but latency and memory overall speed really are different. As you say it will matter much more how the surrounding technology leverages this stuff.

 

[Can Crusher]

Did he not just show you how in bed they are with that industry? how does this go over your head?

You know, it gets hard to have any form of discussion if you are using rhetoric like that.

Explain how Sony leaning on others to produce and design their consoles is any different from what MS or Nintendo do, and what are the advantages it has.

You still haven't done so. Here

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47378531&postcount=198

I see. X360 was a SoC at 45nm in 2011 when pretty much the entire industry was already there for a while now.

What you should be thinking about is that whilst they were doing that Sony were making preparations for stacking in Vita in 2012.

Sony have their own fab. They will along with others spend hundreds of millions on such R&D because they are more dependent on stacking, 2.5d tsv 3d etc. They make everything from smartphones to consoles. It's their bread and butter.

Cell and RSX are quite a bit more complicated to put in a SoC, and last I heard they were rumoured to had skipped a gen and going for 22nm. Will be interesting to see if that is a SoC or not.

Not for this kind of stuff. Sony's fabs are dedicated to image processing chips and image sensors. For general purpose processors Sony have a long term partnership with Toshiba (who make the the Vita SoC as well as 45nm Cell).

I will admit I might not be getting it, but apparently he just shot down your theory that Sony would have an advantage on this kind of hardware we are talking about. Since they don't fab general purpose processors.

You know what, you are difficu...

Oh... okay.jpeg

Spoiler

I thought it was funny

Well you're a funny guy.

 

[Ashes]

Oh? I didn't realise he shot me down. Since I agreed with him. Whilst I was carrying on the thread of the argument from an earlier period, he went forward with it.

edit: Meh. Rereading what I wrote, the expression is not nearly as clear as it could be. Though I don't see how that interferes with your overall argument and mine.

 

[Can Crusher]

Oh? I didn't realise he shot me down. Since I agreed with him. Whilst I was carrying on the thread from an earlier period, he went forward with it.

Yeah that's the thing, you agree with him but you are still saying Sony has some sort of advantage when it comes to the hardware inside these machine on the basis that they make their own stuff unlike MS.

So you are agreeing with him, when he is telling you that Sony doesn't and yet you still maintain the same position.

That's contradictory. So help me understand what you actually mean.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Soooo....about those DMEs.

 

[Ashes]

Yeah that's the thing, you agree with him but you are still saying Sony has some sort of advantage when it comes to the hardware inside these machine on the basis that they make their own stuff unlike MS.

So you are agreeing with him, when he is telling you that Sony doesn't and yet you still maintain the same position.

That's contradictory.

There's an entire process that goes along the chain of producing such products. You appear to think my argument hinges on them right now making cells.

 

[iamshadowlark]

They bought it back to use for image sensors and image processing chips. There was no information given in the press release to suggest that they would use the newly bought foundries for anything other than image sensors and processors.

The fact that Toshiba make the Vita SoC should tell you everything you need to know about their fabrication capacity for general purpose CPUs.



Toshiba still do. Sony source Cell from Toshiba and IBM. They do not produce any themselves and have not done so since the early production at 90nm.

There is no info to believe the factory is for image proccessing either. And toshiba making the Vita chip doesn't mean anything particular either. For all we know it could be a cost saving measure. Quit acting like you know things that you don't.

 

[phosphor112]

Soooo....about those DMEs.

Wizard Girth or something.

 

[artist]

What? No. The opposite. Anyway, I give up. You're a hard one to reason with.

You arent alone and should check him out in the other threads. He's heavily slanted towards Durango.

 

[Ashes]

Regardless, he is free to disagree with me here.

 

[Can Crusher]

There's an entire process that goes along the chain of producing such products. You appear to think my argument hinges on them right now making cells.

No, I think your argument hinges on Sony making their own console hardware, which includes CPU/GPU/RAM/Memory Controllers and whatever is thrown in there.

Soooo....about those DMEs.

Sorry for the off topic.

You arent alone and should check him out in the other threads. He's heavily slanted towards Durango.

Another false accusation, with no evidence whatsoever to support it. Incredible. You are just something else ain't you...

When are you going to say something that is true? And right? And is backed up by something?

You have this personal thing about me, but you have nothing. Look at yourself.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

You know, it gets hard to have any form of discussion if you are using rhetoric like that.

Explain how Sony leaning on others to produce and design their consoles is any different from what MS or Nintendo do, and what are the advantages it has.

You still haven't done so. Here

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47378531&postcount=198



I will admit I might not be getting it, but apparently he just shot down your theory that Sony would have an advantage on this kind of hardware we are talking about. Since they don't fab general purpose processors.



Well you're a funny guy.

I did mention that they have a long term partnership with Toshiba, that gives them a leg up on MS. They get priority for new process nodes at Toshiba's foundries. They are getting 32nm online this quarter and the first shipments are supposed to destined for Sony's products.

There is no info to believe the factory is for image proccessing either. And toshiba making the Vita chip doesn't mean anything particular either. For all we know it could be a cost saving measure. Quit acting like you know things that you don't.

I'm currently writing a report on the investment prospects for Japan's tech sector for work, the bank wants to rerate all of Japan's companies to take into account the weaker Yen. For this report I have had research (and I mean research, not just use Google) the competitiveness of the sector in Japan. Companies are more than happy to oblige with us since they know a positive rerating from us will boost their share price.

Toshiba are making the Vita chip because Sony don't have the capacity to do so.

 

[Basch]

Shouldn't the loads of the truck be less than 8,000 and 4,000 being that the OS and related applications are probably using some of that load which games would never have access to?

 

[JonathanPower]

Durango's special sauce revealed.

 

[Ashes]

No, I think your argument hinges on Sony making their own console hardware, which includes CPU/GPU/RAM/Memory Controllers and whatever is thrown in there.

Why?

What I'm saying is that their expertise* in the hardware manufacturing industry is an advantage to them when pitied up against Microsoft. Just like their expertise in media etc etc.

But anyway, this is off topic.


edit: *contacts, links, resources at their disposal etc etc.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Agreed. 2 targets and 2 plans but built originally on the same overall hardware and then from their.

To continue the House example. The foundation was poured and both chose different blueprints to end up with 3 stories. It is going to be really awesome if they are both unique. I would love to have a very very valid reason to get both.


You bet latency matters but latency and memory overall speed really are different. As you say it will matter much more how the surrounding technology leverages this stuff.

Yea I'm really curious to get developer feedback specifically on Durango,

Also if it's true that Microsoft is forcing standard DX API libraries I don't see any reason why Durango games wouldn't be playable(with scaling) in some form on even mid range(2014) desktop PC or higher end laptops.

Imagine Durango games being playable on Windows 8 PC(and iterive console hardware ie Durango 2.0 in 2015) , THIS would be the megaton announcement everyone is waiting for.

 

[P90]

Imagine Durango games being playable on Windows 8 PC's , THIS would be the megaton announcement everyone is waiting for.

Why would MS do this? It would just make the 720 unnecessary.

 

[Biggzy]

Why would MS do this? It would just make the 720 unnecessary.

It's just speculation, but there has to be a reason why MS would be insisting on standard DX API's.

 

[Can Crusher]

I did mention that they have a long term partnership with Toshiba, that gives them a leg up on MS. They get priority for new process nodes at Toshiba's foundries. They are getting 32nm online this quarter and the first shipments are supposed to destined for Sony's products.

It gives them a leg up on MS when it comes to Toshiba right? Not all the foundries in the world.

Why?

What I'm saying is that their expertise* in the hardware manufacturing industry is an advantage to them when pitied up against Microsoft. Just like their expertise in media etc etc.

But anyway, this is off topic.


edit: *contacts, links, resources at their disposal etc etc.

Well I just don't see how that would impact these videogame consoles in terms of what they are packing in terms of power. I agree that they have an advantage when it comes to stuff like media. But that doesn't affect the specs.

In the same way, I don't adhere to the notion that MS is simply gonna have a big advantage on the software side, because the advantages they have don't mean by default they will simply produce a better gaming system in terms of software. It's not black and white.

It is off topic though, but you know this what neogaf is for. We are discussing our views, if the only thing I wanted was someone to tell me "Yes yes" I would just talk about this stuff with my GF. She would say yes to everything I say on this subject.

Let's get back on topic.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Why would MS do this? It would just make the 720 unnecessary.

People would either have to buy an Xbox or Windows 8 PC , either way Microsoft wins(remember their probably losing money on XBox hardware so less sales is OK) and publishers would have a large install base from day 1 with minor additional development costs.