You're willing to force that potential pain and suffering and everything else a pregnancy imposes on women for your own happiness. It's supremely fucked.
Please, assume im arguing over the baby's life, not over my happiness.
But is is really interesting or useful when it is a position which should have nothing to do with the law? Religious belief and legal authority should be as far apart as possible. To me this isn't about personal beliefs, but about people who cannot differentiate between personal beliefs and accepting that society is in fact better off without these beliefs policed.
I'm Catholic. I've encountered these views my entire life. I personally would never encourage abortion, and I would struggle greatly with it in extreme circumstances. But I strongly condemn anyone who would use this belief to lobby for any sort of legal deterrent for abortion. The law should have no say in preventing abortions. The law should have no say in compensating men for "suffering" in a case of an abortion. The thought itself disgusts me because it's very clear that the thought process behind those things are not driven by good will or Christ-like behavior.
Men who think they are entitled to something because of what a woman does only have to consider this - does the woman not suffer at all when she undergoes an abortion? Do you truly think that someone who is pregnant decides to go through with an abortion with no psychological impact at all? It's only you who are suffering? No, fuck off, it's not.
This is obviously rather touchy for me, so I will no longer reply or moderate in this thread. But I'm not someone who likes to shut down discussions for the sake of it. I just feel this is a dead end subject. All it does is piss people off more and people get angrier inside, even if it is "civil debate".
Im not religious, the thing is that there is no cientific real consensus on when a fetus becomes a human life, so I generally assume its sooner rather than later since I dont have the facts for this.
Since im not religious, I dont believe in the after life, so I believe that when a baby dies, its life is lost forever. Everything he could ever been, lost forever to the limbo. That gives me a perspective that with no after life, every human life is precious.
I promisse not to get angry here, Im just trying to have a conversation.
That changes nothing.
I don't think this is your intent, but your posts come across as suggesting that a baby is going to have a happy life if born. Is a baby raised by someone who didn't want them going to be happy?
Is a baby who grows up, becomes an adult, marries someone, is raped by their spouse and forced to carry the child under the threat of being sued having a happy life? What's your cutoff for the amount of suffering someone can have in their life before you say they don't have a happy one? If 9 months isn't enough, what is? A year? Ten years? Eighteen years?
If people having the right to a happy life is that important, then there are a whole bunch of bigger fish to fry. You don't get to say "I just want them to be happy" when the idea that you should be able to sue a mother for getting an abortion flies in the face of someone being able to live a happy life, on top of our society being woefully unequipped to help people of all ages. It seems less like you care about people being happy and more like you just care about people being.
Answering the bold.
I dont want kids to be raised by parents that dont want him/her, Im pro abortion if thats the case.
I believe the suffering involved in being raped and forced to carry a child is so huge, that woman should be allowed to do watever she wants with the baby.
That is not true. Family rights are the rights of the concrete case. A judge and a psychiatric professional would have to analize each case to weight whose right is being harmed the most. Thats how moral damage works really.
If, lets say ,its a woman with clinical depression, her suffering would surely outweight the others.
And how do you measure suffering? How exactly do we know if those 9 months of suffering a woman must endure for the sake of a baby are going to lead to a long term happiness and not more suffering?
I don't think this applies if there is rape.
We don't know. We can't know. The baby could die in its first month. Thats absolutely true. We cant predict the future.
I respect your opinion, 1 - but hope you keep an open mind about the following:
2 - The legal argument for abortion isn't around an infant being unwanted, it's that a woman has autonomy over her body and that right overrides a fetus' right to life.
3 - The common analogy in this case is that a woman is kidnapped, knocked out and wakes up hooked up via IV to another person against her will. That person dies if the IV is removed. Does the woman's right to autonomy and not being hooked up if she doesn't want override the person's right to life? Abortion law says yes.
4 - Put yourself in that position: imagine you were the one forced to be hooked up against your will. Do you think you are entitled, IF you so choose, to walk away? You don't HAVE to walk away, but do you have that right?
This is actually a stronger anti-choice biased scenario than abortion due to its assumption that the person you're hooked up to IS a person, which isn't at all clear with pregnancy, medically or legally, and also doesn't really address the health risks of pregnancy, which are substantial.
I view this law as abhorrent because it doesn't respect the woman's right over her own body. She should be able to do whatever she wants with her own body. It's the most fundamental liberty there is.
1 - Always. I dont claim to know everything.
2 - Thats certainly the legal grounds on countries that allow abortion. I have a completely different background. I live in a country that doesnt. I believe it should be allowed here on the grounds of potential suffering (if neither parents want it, the kid will live an unhappy life).
3 - I believe that analogy works with a rape case, the women was forced into a situation. And certainly, in that situation I dont think she should be forced to donate blood. I believe consensual sex doesnt work completely with this analogy.
4 - Assuming I was forced into this situation, I believe I would have the right to walk away yeah. I wouldnt tho, I value life over all else.
