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[Cizard]

Its true, that's literally the peak of battle shonen and I feel bad for the people that don't like it

It's very different from the rest of the manga and hasn't impressed me so far. I've only read up to like... vol 24 or something though as that's where the english release stopped last time I re-read it.

Kyoto / Shishio arc from Rurouni Kenshin, the Twelve Houses from Saint Seiya, the entire Slam Dunk run, Dark Tournament from Yu Yu Hakusho and the Piccolo / Saiyan / Freeza combo from Dragon Ball still stand above everything else IMHO.

I am surprised at the quantity of people choosing One Piece or even Hunter X Hunter over any one those legends; I suppose this is related to a generational change in the mainstream manga / anime consumers´ demographics.

As people already mentioned, not really a generational change at all. I have the same amount of nostalgia for some of your examples as I do for HxH and One Piece. While all of your examples are absolutely good (I've not read twelve houses tho) I don't think they stand above HxH or One Piece at all, some are on par for sure, some aren't (I disagree with you on Kenshin and Yuyu Hakusho).

I'm still a bit baffled by the love Yuyu Hakusho gets here, it's good but not THAT good

 

[Lulubop]

It's very different from the rest of the manga and hasn't impressed me so far. I've only read up to like... vol 24 or something though as that's where the english release stopped last time I re-read it.



As people already mentioned, not really a generational change at all. I have the same amount of nostalgia for some of your examples as I do for HxH and One Piece. While all of your examples are absolutely good (I've not read twelve houses tho) I don't think they stand above HxH or One Piece at all, some are on par for sure, some aren't (I disagree with you on Kenshin and Yuyu Hakusho).

I'm still a bit baffled by the love Yuyu Hakusho gets here, it's good but not THAT good

YYH gets love everywhere, because it is that good.

 

[Cizard]

YYH gets love everywhere, because it is that good.

GAF is the first time I see people talking about Yuyu Hakusho as if it were anywhere near the best ever I don't hate it at all but best ever? no way.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

GAF is the first time I see people talking about Yuyu Hakusho as if it were anywhere near the best ever I don't hate it at all but best ever? no way.

A rewatch left me rather cold. There's some cool direction with the Dark Tournament but that's about it.

 

[Bounceounce]

Kyoto / Shishio arc from Rurouni Kenshin, the Twelve Houses from Saint Seiya, the entire Slam Dunk run, Dark Tournament from Yu Yu Hakusho and the Piccolo / Saiyan / Freeza combo from Dragon Ball still stand above everything else IMHO.

I am surprised at the quantity of people choosing One Piece or even Hunter X Hunter over any one those legends; I suppose this is related to a generational change in the mainstream manga / anime consumers´ demographics.

I enjoyed Kenshin, but as far as i'm concerned it isn't written nearly as well as One Piece or Hunter x Hunter, especially post-Kyoto.
Maybe it's a generational thing, but I believe my mind was clear when I read both of the series.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yeah, Super saiyan has become such a joke. God I like gotenks and that whole plot line in the buu arc but fuck I could do without them shitting up the whole super saiyan thing.

Especially now more then ever SSJ in being handed out like nothing.

Man even Vegeta agrees with you.

But honestly, base Super Saiyan was made worthless the second Androids 17 & 18 showed up.

 

[sir_bumble_bee]

CP9 arc in One Piece was pure genius, makes me sad Oda has yet to come anywhere close to that level of quality.

Chimera Ant arc mad overrated, it starts and ends great but had pacing issues out the ass.

 

[Ray Down]

How are the kids going Super a negative?

In a series where Saiyans were jumping power levels by millions of points within minutes against Frieza, when their power had been in the thousands before that, after all. Gohan did it in a couple months after he had an actual Super Saiyin to train with, after all.

Goten was training with Trunks, who was training with Vegeta, so naturally those 2 work off each other and went super really young.

 

[Ray Down]

I love Toriyama's honesty and self-depreciation humor.

Yeah it's really great.

Really a lot of Akira strengths are all about going along on the ride with him and he held you in the moment fantastically and as twists and turns and surprises, he delivered. "Ultimate Gohan failed, instead its Goku and Vegeta fused, no wait..." And as plot twists, those kept you guessing, BUT... its easy to look at, (and especially in interviews) and tell that except for a couple broad points, he was largely making it up as he went along week by week. And he was very good at that.

But overall continuity, keeping up with various characters, and story cohesion were NOT his strong-points.

Like forgetting Launch and Tao Pai existed, or forgetting Gohan sage power up, or hair color, or animal people existed in early on.

 

[andymcc]

Kyoto / Shishio arc from Rurouni Kenshin, the Twelve Houses from Saint Seiya, the entire Slam Dunk run, Dark Tournament from Yu Yu Hakusho and the Piccolo / Saiyan / Freeza combo from Dragon Ball still stand above everything else IMHO.

I am surprised at the quantity of people choosing One Piece or even Hunter X Hunter over any one those legends; I suppose this is related to a generational change in the mainstream manga / anime consumers´ demographics.

I think OP and HxH are already both old enough and influential enough in their own right for them to be lumped in the older generation. Togashi especially isn't a spring chicken.

Though I've bitched about the abundant narration in the chimera ant arc, it's definitely one of the best in Shonen (as is the YorkNew arc).

 

[Kyzer]

Chimera Ant arc was great until the actual raiding of the castle began. Then it became a sloggy show where characters inner narrated literally every possibility of every possible thing. Time slowed down to like 1/10 and every tiny little thing was extrapolated on endlessly. I usually think HxH does a good job with this but for the chimera ant arc it was atrocious. It was worse than DBZ pacing. Is my enemy going to blink?

Character: Maybe hes blinking on purpose. Could he really have blinked at a time like this? UNLESS...he must have done it on purpose. Yes! Thats it! His plan must have been to throw me off by blinking in such a way that I could see it. But how could he have known that I would look? Regardless of if he did or didnt or even if it was by accident or not it is actually incredible it is all the same!

I didnt mind the weird stuff, at least it was interesting. But all the interesting moments were quickly over and everything else stretched thin

 

[HStallion]

Chimera Ant arc was great until the actual raiding of the castle began. Then it became a sloggy show where characters inner narrated literally every possibility of every possible thing. Time slowed down to like 1/10 and every tiny little thing was extrapolated on endlessly. I usually think HxH does a good job with this but for the chimera ant arc it was atrocious. It was worse than DBZ pacing. Is my enemy going to blink?

Character: Maybe hes blinking on purpose. Could he really have blinked at a time like this? UNLESS...he must have done it on purpose. Yes! Thats it! His plan must have been to throw me off by blinking in such a way that I could see it. But how could he have known that I would look? Regardless of if he did or didnt or even if it was by accident or not it is actually incredible it is all the same!

I love this kind of stuff as I really like knowing the inner workings of a characters mind especially under extreme duress. Then again I didn't mind the slower pacing of the palace invasion and thought the pay off was incredible. The only thing I didn't care for was the focus put on some of the less important random Chimera Ants.

 

[Daingurse]

Chimera Ant arc was great until the actual raiding of the castle began. Then it became a sloggy show where characters inner narrated literally every possibility of every possible thing. Time slowed down to like 1/10 and every tiny little thing was extrapolated on endlessly. I usually think HxH does a good job with this but for the chimera ant arc it was atrocious. It was worse than DBZ pacing. Is my enemy going to blink?

Character: Maybe hes blinking on purpose. Could he really have blinked at a time like this? UNLESS...he must have done it on purpose. Yes! Thats it! His plan must have been to throw me off by blinking in such a way that I could see it. But how could he have known that I would look? Regardless of if he did or didnt or even if it was by accident or not it is actually incredible it is all the same!

That's like one of the best parts for me lol. I love the initial infiltration, the extreme compression of time, and the narration that lets us know literally every little thing the characters are thinking. The Chimera Ant arc just got better, and better the longer it went on for me. It just never seemed to stopped escalating!

 

[Jigolo]

Man this art is so cool

 

[Ray Down]

Man this art is so cool

Toriyama coloring now:

http://otaku.com/files/images/fullsize/86193D9.JPG

 

[MKIL65]

But that's Chimera Ants

It's the best... And the worst arc.

That artwork is also amazing OP!

 

[Pics_nao]

The fuck is Chimera Ant?

And yeah, Water 7/Enies Lobby was fucking dope. Read all of OP at once for a week a few years back to finally catch back up and that arc blew me the fuck away. Shame about the rest of it though.

 

[Big One]

Toriyama coloring now:

http://otaku.com/files/images/fullsize/86193D9.JPG

Toriyama did not draw the image in the quote you're quoting, and honestly I'm a fan of his digital colors and new style as well as the old school anime look of Dragon Ball.

 

[Daingurse]

The fuck is Chimera Ant?

Think I asked the very same question like 13 years ago lol. Now it's my favorite shonen arc, period.

¯_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Sec0nd]

A lot of wonderful things can be said about DBZ and the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. But well paced is not one of them lol. The length of the Freeza fight alone is ludicrous lol.

Edit: Guess we all watched it as they showed a new episode a day. Imagine watching that at the pace of an episode a week. That must have been absolute torture lol.

 

[Ferrio]

The fuck is Chimera Ant?

Massive spoilers

Spoiler

A cell ripoff takes over North Korea and learns to love by losing at a stupid fictional board game to the world's most pitiful little girl. They die due to a nuclear bomb THE END.

 

[Wood Man]

I will never understand the love for the ant arc of HXH.

greed island and yorknew are both leagues better than it.

I'm with you on this. It had major pacing issues and I never understood why people think it's the best. Maybe they overlook the entire arc for the pay off with Gon going completely berserk (which is probably the best Shonen moment ever)

But Namek/Frieza arc is the best in DBZ. Nothing better.

 

[Magwik]

Massive spoilers

Spoiler

A cell ripoff takes over North Korea and learns to love by losing at a stupid fictional board game to the world's most pitiful little girl. They die due to a nuclear bomb THE END.

That's rather disingenuous

 

[Ferrio]

That's rather disingenuous

But not a lie, that's what happened.

 

[Ray Down]

Toriyama did not draw the image in the quote you're quoting, and honestly I'm a fan of his digital colors and new style as well as the old school anime look of Dragon Ball.

I know it wasn't, mainly using it as an excuse to bitch about his current art.

I'm missing on his current art.

 

[Mediking]

YEAH... NO.

Best arc in Shonen history? PFFT HECK NO.

 

[LotusHD]

But not a lie, that's what happened.

You're just mad because you suck at Gungi sir.

 

[Ferrio]

You're just mad because you suck at Gungi sir.

I'd of actually liked it if there were any explanations on how it's played.

 

[Magwik]

But not a lie, that's what happened.

Well sure, but if I say Of Mice and Men is a story about a dude coming to terms and having to kill his best friend, I'm not exactly doing the intricacies of the story itself any justice.

 

[Kyzer]

Spoiler

the rose bomb

is so stupid.

 

[Fandangox]

I'd of actually liked it if there were any explanations on how it's played.

Its not really necessary. We didn't know to know its rules for it have its place in the plot.

 

[theCalamity]

Spoiler

the rose bomb

is so stupid.

Absolutely not. I understand people having an issue with pacing or the narrator, but the

Spoiler

Rose Bomb

was smart and I love it.

 

[LotusHD]

Spoiler

the rose bomb

is so stupid.

Why?

 

[Daingurse]

The Chimera Ant arc has gotta be one of the most divisive arcs in manga. I personally don't get how people can hate the arc, and other people don't seem to get why people love it!

 

[Kyzer]

Absolutely not. I understand people having an issue with pacing or the narrator, but the

Spoiler

Rose Bomb

was smart and I love it.

Whats the absolute necessity of Netero having

Spoiler

a bomb that only detonates when he dies?

and how is it that it isnt easily escaped by someone like

Spoiler

Meruem

?

Also, we're supposed to use spoilers right? Shows kinda ancient now

Anyways I liked the story being told, I dont even mind the weird stuff like the revival. I just think the pacing was atrocious, interesting parts over quickly and at odds with the rest of the pacing, and there were lots of what i cant help but feel are cheap twists like the above, or an episodes worth of inner monologues from Morel standing in front of a cocoon, this combat genius, which just turns out to be totally baseless thinking and him looking like an idiot and just realizing it for no reason episodes later like oh shit the twist is i was wrong about everything I was inner monologuing that whole time. King ant story is amazing, love the showdowns and interactions when the story was actually moving along. But like I said, those great parts were also over so damn quickly.

 

[Just_myles]

YYH gets love everywhere, because it is that good.

I agree. It's not just nostalgia either. That is the blue print for battle manga tournaments afaik. DB did it good but, YYH took it there. You see how they tried to replicate it again later with the Makai tournament.

 

[Two Words]

This guy actually thinks the plot twist of Goku being an alien is a good thing. It's one of the shittiest things about Dragonball Z. Goku in Dragon Ball was an interesting character, a lot that came from his mysterious origins, and the characteristics that made him unique. His incredible strength, endless appetite, tail, ability to transform into a giant ape, pure-hearted nature, etc., were all aspects that made the character interesting. In the universe of Dragon Ball, Goku was special. It's easy to imagine kids growing up reading/watching Dragon Ball and thinking "I wanna be just like Goku."

Dragon Ball Z starts by basically ripping all of that away. He's just a third-rate alien and none of his attributes are unique at all. Oh and he's pure-hearted because he bumped his head as a kid. So much for character, huh. DBZ then goes on to remove a lot of what made Dragon Ball good. Goku won many of his battles through cleverness and improvisation. There were many battles where he was clearly outmatched or evenly matched. He usually didn't have years to prepare for his next fight as if he's a Floyd Mayweather. And Goku often fought or went on adventures that he wanted to go on, not just training for the next dooms day. In DBZ. Nearly every catastrophe is well-informed beforehand, and everybody just trains to prep for it. These people don't even live lives between these events anymore, outside of the 7 years between Cell and Buu.

It's a shitty plot device that retroactively tarnishes Dragon Ball all so that DBZ can continue an endless cycle of world-catastrophes.

 

[theCalamity]

Whats the absolute necessity of Netero having

Spoiler

a bomb that only detonates when he dies?

and how is it that it isnt easily escaped by someone like

Spoiler

Meruem

?

Spoiler

To make sure that the ants die. He wasn't able to escape it easily because he was caught off guard. And then he didn't realize that it's not just the explosion that was dangerous, but also the radiation.

Also, we're supposed to use spoilers right? Shows kinda ancient now

Some people haven't watched it.

 

[DrD]

Namek arc made Vegeta my favorite DBZ character by far. Vegeta/Gohan/Krillin also made for an awesome team with how the odds seemed so stacked against them.

Have a hard time choosing between Chimera Ant and Yorknew City as my favorite Shonen arc. Chimera has higher highs but Yorknew is more consistent. I have a feeling the

Spoiler

Dark Continent arc

will be the best yet if Togashi ever finishes it based on all the setup so far (last few chapters are among the best in all of manga), that's a big if though. I think like 4 out of my top 5 favorite Shonen arcs are by Togashi with HxH and YYH.

 

[Daingurse]

Namek arc made Vegeta my favorite DBZ character by far. Vegeta/Gohan/Krillin also made for an awesome team with how the odds seemed so stacked against them.

This sequence in particular made Vegeta my favorite character. Vegeta had so many great fights and character interactions on Namek. He was a complete scoundrel, and I couldn't help but root for him!

 

[KidA Seven]

This guy actually thinks the plot twist of Goku being an alien is a good thing. It's one of the shittiest things about Dragonball Z. Goku in Dragon Ball was an interesting character, a lot that came from his mysterious origins, and the characteristics that made him unique. His incredible strength, endless appetite, tail, ability to transform into a giant ape, pure-hearted nature, etc., were all aspects that made the character interesting. In the universe of Dragon Ball, Goku was special. It's easy to imagine kids growing up reading/watching Dragon Ball and thinking "I wanna be just like Goku."

Dragon Ball Z starts by basically ripping all of that away. He's just a third-rate alien and none of his attributes are unique at all. Oh and he's pure-hearted because he bumped his head as a kid. So much for character, huh. DBZ then goes on to remove a lot of what made Dragon Ball good. Goku won many of his battles through cleverness and improvisation. There were many battles where he was clearly outmatched or evenly matched. He usually didn't have years to prepare for his next fight as if he's a Floyd Mayweather. And Goku often fought or went on adventures that he wanted to go on, not just training for the next dooms day. In DBZ. Nearly every catastrophe is well-informed beforehand, and everybody just trains to prep for it. These people don't even live lives between these events anymore, outside of the 7 years between Cell and Buu.

It's a shitty plot device that retroactively tarnishes Dragon Ball all so that DBZ can continue an endless cycle of world-catastrophes.

Finally someone says it. DBZ ruined a lot of shit. The half saiyans are a perfect example of further shitting on Goku.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Watching some of these clips from the first 100 episodes of DBZ reminds me of how much has changed over the years.

After viewing some episodes of DB Super, I REALLY pine for the days of "oldschool" art and animation.

 

[Riposte]

Yorknew is better then Chimera Ant (and '99 Yorknew is better than '11 Yorknew, if we are talking anime).

Dark Continent / Kakin Royal Rumble looks like it will top it though.

 

[KimiNewt]

All you people saying One Piece's Water 7, are you including Enies Lobby? I didn't remember Water 7 as being THAT good but maybe I should rewatch it.

My personal favourite DBZ arc is indeed the Saiyan/Freeza saga, or if you look at it more closely the Namek Saga. I love all the running around and people scheming, it's just about the only arc in DBZ where underpowered people (Vegeta, Krillin/Gohan) actually matter in some way.

For similar reasons my favourite One Piece arc is Skypiea. It also has the best backstory in the show.

 

[LotusHD]

All you people saying One Piece's Water 7, are you including Enies Lobby?

Pretty much everyone combines both Water 7 and Enies Lobby

 

[agentofatlas]

Kyoto / Shishio arc from Rurouni Kenshin, the Twelve Houses from Saint Seiya, the entire Slam Dunk run, Dark Tournament from Yu Yu Hakusho and the Piccolo / Saiyan / Freeza combo from Dragon Ball still stand above everything else IMHO.

I am surprised at the quantity of people choosing One Piece or even Hunter X Hunter over any one those legends; I suppose this is related to a generational change in the mainstream manga / anime consumers´ demographics.

You have great taste friend. Those arcs were fantastic.