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[Shaanyboi]

via Vulture

Earlier this week, Margaret Cho revealed that Tilda Swinton contacted her to discuss the anger over her casting as the Ancient One in Doctor Strange in an interview on Bobby Lee's podcast TigerBelly. "It was weird because I felt like a house Asian, like I'm her servant," Cho said of their "long discussion," adding that Swinton told her not to tell anybody about their conversation. Cho also mentioned that Swinton said she was producing a film with Steven Yeun (Bong Joon-ho’s Okja). "I had a weird feeling about the entire exchange," Cho said. "Especially the part of Don't tell anybody."

Swinton's reps were approached and they offered the five e-mail correspondence.

Swinton:

Dear Margaret,
We've never met, but you've been in my head for years - I'm a fan.
I want to ask you a favour now which is sprung out of a truly important social conversation but may be heading for some crazy-making shit.
The diversity debate - ALL STRENGTH to it - has come knocking at the door of Marvel's new movie DR STRANGE.
I am told that you are aware of this. But since I am that extinct beast that does no social media, I am unaware of what exactly anybody has said about any of it. I believe there are some ironies about this particular film being a target, but I'm frankly much more interested in listening than saying anything much.

I would really love to hear your thoughts and have a - private - conversation about it. Are you up for this? Can we e-mail?

No wrong answer here. Tell me to fuck off if you feel like it. In any and every case,
Much love to you,

Tilda

Cho:

Sure! I'm a big fan of yours - since orlando!
Well, what do you know so far? I can tell you from my perspective what's happening!
The character you played in Dr Strange was originally written as a Tibetan man and so there's a frustrated population of Asian Americans who feel the role should have gone to a person of Asian descent.
The largerpart of the debate has to do with the 'whitewashing' of Asian and Asian Americans in film. Our stories are told by white actors over and over again and we feel at a loss to know how to cope with it.
Protest seems to be the only solution- we just want more representative images of ourselves in film. TV is getting better in terms of diversity but film is lagging behind.
Anyway - hope this helps! We can totally email and we can be private!
Best, m

Swinton:

Thank you so much for your reply! So grateful to have a chance to chew this cud with you. Super clear.
Here's the situation I reckon Marvel was in. The old comic books from way back when are stuffed with stereotypes that we could all find offensive for any number of reasons.
The film - like any film adaptation - is a riff on the books. The Ancient One may have been written as a Tibetan man in the comics, but Marvel, in a conscious effort to shake up stereotypes, wanted to avoid tired cliché. They cast Chiwetel Ejiofor as the second lead - a white Transylvanian in the books. And wrote a significant Asian character to be played by Benedict Wong.
With The Ancient One (the 'wise old Eastern geezer' Fu Manchu type in the book), wanting to switch up the gender (another diversity department) and not wanting to engage with the old 'Dragon Lady' trope, they chose to write the character as being of (ancient) Celtic origin and offered that role to me. Presumably on Ancient grounds. I accepted happily, impressed that, for once, they aimed to disrupt the 'wisdom must be male' never-ending story - and, by the way, for once, wanting to feature a woman who's a badass, over 26 and not simply bursting out of a bikini.
The biggest irony about this righteous protest targeting this particular film is the pains the makers went to to avoid it.
A - personal - irony to my being even remotely involved in this controversy is what I stand up for and always have. Whether it is challenging the idea of what women look like, or how any of us live our lives, or how we educate our children, diversity is pretty much my comfort zone. The idea of being caught on the wrong side of this debate is a bit of a nightmare to me.
I am as sick as anybody at the lack of a properly diverse cinematic universe. Pretty much sick of the Anglophone world in general, sick of all the men's stories, sick of all the symmetrical features and Mattel-inspired limbs..
I'm a Scottish woman of 55 who lives in the Highlands. There's precious little projected on contemporary cinema screens that means a great deal to my life, if truth be told.
So
How best might we focus this thing? To offer intelligent and empowered thinking.. And see something constructive coming out of this moment?

Ducking the issue is not what I am about. I want to meet it, but, if possible, move things forward by how I meet it.
I realise, as far as I am concerned, this possibly means saying nothing: so far I have attempted to correct the notion that I accepted an offer to play an Asian.. (!!) the most significant and damaging misunderstanding out there, it seems. Beyond that, I don't feel it appropriate for me to add anything, certainly at this point.
But I would love to know what ideas you - or anyone you know - have of something properly progressive to bring to this table. The debate is so important for all of us. It needs to build itself on strong ground.
love
Tilda

Cho:

I'm totally unfamiliar with all the comic books so I can't speak on anything about that - and the efforts to make this film more diverse is unfortunately lost in the translation here. Hopefully that comes up more when the film comes out and is finally brought to audiences!
I think that it's just a timing thing - Asian Americans are fed up with not being given roles even if the part called for someone of Asian descent - and that the Ancient One role was being used as another example of 'whitewashing'. Social media has grown to the point where we can use it effectively to express - well whatever.
I believe very much that you as an artist are about diversity and your body of work shows that - but this particular case of the Ancient One is just another in a long list of 'whitewashed' Asian characters and so you're likely to feel the heat of history.
I am not sure what to say other than I am glad you want to meet the issue head on - it's a tough one I know.
I think that talking about the issue frankly - as you have done with me is the right way to go. It's hard I know - people get very angry and it's difficult to know what to do to get around that anger. But you should know that it's anger built up over many many years of invisibility within film/tv/media that's just exploded now with this film. And it's not just you - It's also directed at Scarlett Johanssen for Ghost in the Shell.
Maybe what's best is the highlight the diversity that you do see in the film and that being why you felt drawn to the project.
Also acknowledge that you're all about diversity and how you want the films you make to be diverse and how film can benefit from that.
I'd even suggest getting into producing content that would give Asian American voices a platform? That's really what is being asked for. Asian Americans feel as if we have no place in film and so we want one to be created. Whether that is found in supporting projects that would bring Asians into the foreground or even just discussing what it would take to do such a thing would help.

The e-mail chain ends with Swinton thanking Cho and mentioning a movie she's doing with Stephen Yuen. Cho, when approached about this e-mail chain by Vulture, responded with this.

"Asian actors should play Asian roles. I believe my emails stand on their own and should be taken for the spirit in which they were intended. I am grateful that the debate has now entered the national discussion and remain a huge fan of Tilda's. Now I'm going to go fall asleep at a museum."

EDIT: made a bit of a fuck-up in regards to the third e-mail and mislabeling it. Sorry for the confusion. It's corrected now.

 

[The Kree]

Here's the problem: as that role was written for this movie, casting an Asian woman in that role doesn't suddenly transform the character into a Dragon Lady. They continue to frame the argument as if being Asian in an Asian role is the problem. Clueless.

 

[Media]

I agree with both of them, which is weird. Asian American actors need to be given more roles, especially leading and non-stereotypical roles. The casting of Swinton as the Ancient One was a thumbs up for diversity at the same time, given that she's a woman and like she said, not 26. I do wish an older Asian woman was given the role, but this is one of those instances where no one would be happy in the end. The Ancient One in the comics is a poor stereotype. And I'm also fully aware that the decision to make the character Celtic instead of Tibetan was more a political decision than a 'go diversity' one.

It's fucking complex, and for me breaks down to: We need to give more roles to minorities and older women.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Tilda was perfect in the role.

 

[LotusHD]

Read the whole thing, glad Tilda didn't come off as bad as they initially made it seem. She really was trying to learn the right way to approach this.

 

[Media]

Tilda was perfect in the role.

This is can 100% agree with, she stole a movie from the king of movie stealing

 

[Fuchsdh]

The email discussion is pretty respectful and rational on all sides. No idea where Cho got this "house Asian" vibe, but I'm gonna' say the problem is on her end, especially when you seem to take issue with the idea someone asks you to keep something in confidence. You're not a member of the press talking on record. Be a goddamn respectful human being instead of shitting on someone second-hand via a podcast.

 

[Einchy]

Pretty shitty of Cho to talk about this publicly and make Tilda seem kinda bad when the emails were nothing but respectful on both sides.

 

[radios shipping overview]

That was a lovely conversation between two adults both seeking better understanding and respect from
the world and from each other. I'm glad to come away from it with greater fondness for both of them.

But I'm sorry Cho apparently didn't feel the way she appeared to in the email chain, and apparently resented having to explain issues like these to a white person seeking better understanding.

 

[Strimei]

The email discussion is pretty respectful and rational on all sides. No idea where Cho got this "house Asian" vibe, but I'm gonna' say the problem is on her end, especially when you seem to take issue with the idea someone asks you to keep something in confidence. You're not a member of the press talking on record. Be a goddamn respectful human being instead of shitting on someone second-hand via a podcast.

Yeah I had to reread a few times to try and figure out this "house Asian, like I'm her servant" thing. I feel like she was reading way too much into things.

 

[Mr. X]

Lol Cho must hate being that person people come to for an "asian opinion".

 

[illmatic22]

I still think they should have casted an Asian actor/actress for the role.

 

[The Illiterati]

The email discussion is pretty respectful and rational on all sides. No idea where Cho got this "house Asian" vibe, but I'm gonna' say the problem is on her end, especially when you seem to take issue with the idea someone asks you to keep something in confidence. You're not a member of the press talking on record. Be a goddamn respectful human being instead of shitting on someone second-hand via a podcast.

Yeah, Tilda treats the entire situation completely respectfully. Margaret flat out agrees to keep it private. Tilda here is approaching someone she considers an authority on how to be respectful of this situation, and Cho basically throws that trust and respect away for no reason.

In the future, I guess Cho wants ignorant to keep their questions to themselves, and assume away. Bridges burnt here.

 

[Fantastical]

I think if Cho had these concerns she should have addressed them with Swinton before talking about it on a podcast.

 

[Sage00]

Looks like Cho was pissed that she didn't know anything about the movie or the role and the criticisms were pretty easily swatted away by Swinton.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Did Cho not consider that Swinton likely sought her out for her knowledge and expertise in matters related to diversity? Maybe Cho was just being flippant, I don't know.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The email discussion is pretty respectful and rational on all sides. No idea where Cho got this "house Asian" vibe, but I'm gonna' say the problem is on her end, especially when you seem to take issue with the idea someone asks you to keep something in confidence. You're not a member of the press talking on record. Be a goddamn respectful human being instead of shitting on someone second-hand via a podcast.

I'm not familiar with her, but going from the context in the article, and after reading the emails, that's my take away as well. If she objected to anything Swinton said, their private email exchange was the place to do it. Swinton went to her in good faith, seemed to keep an open mind, and it concluded amicably. Pretty shitty to snipe at her like that.

She was the highlight of Doctor Strange.

 

[Doodis]

Pretty of Cho to talk about this publicly and make Tilda seem kinda bad when the emails were nothing but respectful on both sides.

Yeah, she looks pretty shitty bringing it up when she said she'd keep it private. I'm not saying the discussion doesn't need to be had, but if you promise to keep something private and then blab about it, it's an asshole move.

Also, what the hell with her saying she felt like a household servant? I'm not seeing that in this corrospondence.

 

[Cartman86]

Shitty result that takes away from the more important points.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Yeah...I'm confused about Cho. The way this email chain went down, and how Cho described it, makes me lose a little respect for Cho. Email string was fine on both sides.

 

[Lord Fagan]

More emails, huh?

News is turning into one great, big, neverending HR meeting.

 

[Buckle]

The Ancient One could have been a respectable asian male/female leader thats a genuinely likable and compelling character. Its frustrating.

Just straight up whitewashing and changing the gender to try to avoid controversy isn't a real solution.

Face it head on and fix the problem, make the character better/improve them. Don't create a different problem.

 

[old manatee]

"I would really love to hear your thoughts and have a - private - conversation about it. "

"Sure!"

-----

"I had a weird feeling about the entire exchange," Cho said. "Especially the part of 'Don't tell anybody.'"


I didn't see Dr. Strange in the theatre because Marvel whitewashed the role, and I still think Margaret Cho can fuck off.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I still don't really understand the "dragon lady" angle from Marvel. The role as written could have been performed by an Asian actress and I don't think anyone would have minded. An Asian woman in a position of power isn't automatically a stereotype.

Swinton was great in the movie, but still.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

I like Swinton in the movie and she is right that some of these old comic boock characters are very stereotypical and wouldn't play well in this day and age.

That said, someone like Namor should go to an Asian or Asian American actor. And Mulan shouldn't even be a question of what ethnicity the actress needs to be.

 

[radios shipping overview]

I still don't really understand the "dragon lady" angle from Marvel. The role as written could have been performed by an Asian actress and I don't think anyone would have minded. An Asian woman in a position of power isn't automatically a stereotype.

Swinton was great in the movie, but still.

"We have no idea what good Asian female roles look like, but we do know that Tilda Swinton is a gender-fluid magical being!"

(Which she is, but still, c'mon, Marvel)

 

[Miroku129]

ITT: Margaret Cho is a asshole

 

[echoshifting]

How could Cho possibly know that she is the only Asian American or Asian person Swinton reached out to. Swinton does not imply that. Swinton does not make any demands of her either. She says, hey if you want me to fuck off, I'll fuck off, which has always been my own approach when talking about these sorts of issues. Should I not?

Maybe there are other people out there who Swinton talked to who just kept their word and kept it private...?

 

[Killer Queen]

But what does BronsonLee think

 

[Moonkid]

Tilda aced her role but I too would have preferred someone Asian.

 

[Breads]

I don't get it. The worst thing you can accuse Swinton of is maybe being too aloof or disconnected from the conversation... but I don't think she was condescending or treating Cho like a house... anything. Maybe she's projecting. This seems more like an interpretation of a hot take of a podcast that maybe wasn't 100% representative of what she was feeling in earnest but more a product of where the conversation was steered. I dunno. There is too much media for me to absorb in order to fully understand why this is being framed the way it was framed but the outstanding issue aside the emails them self feel pretty innocuous. So yeah I don't get it.

 

[Back-In-Black]

ITT: Margaret Cho is a asshole

Well yes, in this context she is.

 

[Salty Rice]

ITT: Margaret Cho is a asshole

For this yep.

Tilda was perfect in the role.

/thread

 

[Dongs Macabre]

As much as I liked Swinton in the move, the role could have (and should have) gone to an Asian woman instead.

Like, the narrative that having an Asian person play the Ancient One would be stereotypical is dumb, since they already changed Wong's character from Dr Strange's slave. Characters are only stereotypes if you write them as one. The writers should have taken their own advice and opened their eye.

And I'm not sure why everyone seems to be objecting to what Cho said. It's not like they're close friends or anything, so it does give off the vibe that Swinton just called up the first Asian person she could think of to ask them about this.

 

[Blizzard]

I read the first email in Tilda Swinton's voice and it was amazing.

I'm not really seeing Swinton at fault here.

 

[echoshifting]

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain what "house Asian" means precisely? Does it mean a servant who is Asian or is there more to it? Google, urban dictionary and Wikipedia have not been helpful.

 

[Dude Abides]

Whatever the merits of the casting argument, Swinton comes out of this looking a lot better than Cho.

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain what "house Asian" means precisely? Does it mean a servant who is Asian or is there more to it? Google, urban dictionary and Wikipedia have not been helpful.

I assume it's a play on "house negro". I.e. Asian person who supplicates to whites and is rewarded for it.

 

[Media]

Whatever the merits of the casting argument, Swinton comes out of this looking a lot better than Cho.

Agree with this. Swinton's emails were nothing but polite and respectful so the after the fact shade seems out of place.

 

[kirblar]

I still don't really understand the "dragon lady" angle from Marvel. The role as written could have been performed by an Asian actress and I don't think anyone would have minded. An Asian woman in a position of power isn't automatically a stereotype.

Swinton was great in the movie, but still.

I think that's a way of avoiding talking about the Tibetan elephant in the room.

 

[echoshifting]

I assume it's a play on "house negro". I.e. Asian person who supplicates to whites and is rewarded for it.

Makes sense, thanks

 

[ibyea]

I have to be honest, it is kind of weird if some random stranger, even if you and they are famous, contacted you for this topic. In that respect, I see Cho's complaint about the email conversation, even if Swinton was nice about it.

 

[Stinkles]

Lol Cho must hate being that person people come to for an "asian opinion".

Should probably change her act then which discusses those issues cleverly and deeply.

I imagine swinton watched enjoyed and was provoked by it so Cho's reaction seems a bit one sided. But then again I'm looking at an email thread with no tone of voice.


Cho basically pretended to be nice and private in that thread.

 

[Sage00]

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain what "house Asian" means precisely? Does it mean a servant who is Asian or is there more to it? Google, urban dictionary and Wikipedia have not been helpful.

You know Sam Jackson's character in Django? Imagine that but Asian.

 

[tribal24]

I like Swinton in the movie and she is right that some of these old comic boock characters are very stereotypical and wouldn't play well in this day and age.

That said, someone like Namor should go to an Asian or Asian American actor. And Mulan shouldn't even be a question of what ethnicity the actress needs to be.

Damn Asian Namor would be hot. Never thought about changing the ethnicity on that one. I could see the guy playing the new black ranger playing him.

 

[mollipen]

I have to be honest, it is kind of weird if some random stranger, even if you and they are famous, contacted you for this topic. In that respect, I see Cho's complaint about the email conversation, even if Swinton was nice about it.

"I appreciate your wanting to get opinions from people on this matter, but I don't think I'm the right person to ask about it."

There you go. She never had to have an email conversation in the first place if she didn't want to.

 

[Coffee Dog]

it's understandable for Margaret Cho to feel like Tilda is making her be the ambassador of the asian delegation. It makes it seem like Tilda doesn't have any asian friends she could talk about this with.

However, to go public with what was obviously a private (and from how Cho responded, seemingly cordial) email exchange entirely after the fact is an extremely shitty thing to do. Margaret Cho is a total asshole for this.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I agree with both of them, which is weird. Asian American actors need to be given more roles, especially leading and non-stereotypical roles. The casting of Swinton as the Ancient One was a thumbs up for diversity at the same time, given that she's a woman and like she said, not 26. I do wish an older Asian woman was given the role, but this is one of those instances where no one would be happy in the end. The Ancient One in the comics is a poor stereotype. And I'm also fully aware that the decision to make the character Celtic instead of Tibetan was more a political decision than a 'go diversity' one.

It's fucking complex, and for me breaks down to: We need to give more roles to minorities and older women.

Yeah, this was pretty much a lose lose situation for Marvel.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Looks like Cho was pissed that she didn't know anything about the movie or the role and the criticisms were pretty easily swatted away by Swinton.

Cho is in the wrong, but the "dragon lady" reasoning is not valid and is kind of racist that their approach to "we can't have a dragon lady" is "no Asians."

 

[carlsojo]

If there's anything I've learned about 2016 it's just to never send out emails anymore.

 

[BronsonLee]

But what does BronsonLee think

Cho is a fucking shitarse