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[The Emperor]

Sorry but Tilda just did one of the worst forms of 'whitesplaining' and deflection that there is out there.

'Can't cast an asian in an asian role to avoid stereotyping them'

What the bloody hell? Screw you, it is the JOB of writers to write creatively lol.

The Cho lady isn't without guilt in the way she twisted the situation though.

 

[BorkBork]

im not convinced it's a bad thing to have a Tibetan as a mystic. if it is part of their culture then surely you can incorporate that without turning it into a cartoon.

have you ever read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? it is a landmark text about bringing spirituality from East to West. in it he literally goes to Tibet and finds a mystic who expands his mind. i wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange borrowed liberally from this book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiography_of_a_Yogi

Yeah. Adopt the title, but subvert the shallow expectations associated with it. The stereotype need not be the character, and there is so much unexplored depth to work with for such a character.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It's funny Swinton made the discussion about her intentions and about her nationality when the character she plays in Doctor Strange tells the protagonist "it's not about you."

 

[EatinOlives]

As others have said, then people would probably claim that its the typical "asian mystic" trope. The creators recognized this and went as far away from that as possible and its still an issue to some.

I don't think this is the reason. IIRC they moved away from a Tibetan character because doing so would've pissed off the Chinese government to the point of them not showing the movie in China, which would've hurt them financially.

 

[Zhengi]

This is my problem with Swinton's email response:

Thank you so much for your reply! So grateful to have a chance to chew this cud with you. Super clear.

Here's the situation I reckon Marvel was in. The old comic books from way back when are stuffed with stereotypes that we could all find offensive for any number of reasons.
The film - like any film adaptation - is a riff on the books. The Ancient One may have been written as a Tibetan man in the comics, but Marvel, in a conscious effort to shake up stereotypes, wanted to avoid tired cliché. They cast Chiwetel Ejiofor as the second lead - a white Transylvanian in the books. And wrote a significant Asian character to be played by Benedict Wong.

Great that they casted Chiwetel Ejiofor. But diversity does not end with just hiring black people to your movie. We are specifically talking about Asians in media being underrepresented. This comes off as "Well, we have one black person in the cast, so we have checked our diversity list". Almost as bad as "My best friend is black".

Also, it really gets me that she knows that Mordo is a white Transylvanian, but thinks that Marvel specifically wrote Wong to be Asian for the movie instead of being Asian in the comics. Did she grab this factoid from somewhere to just to seem kinda knowledgeable about diversity?

With The Ancient One (the 'wise old Eastern geezer' Fu Manchu type in the book), wanting to switch up the gender (another diversity department) and not wanting to engage with the old 'Dragon Lady' trope, they chose to write the character as being of (ancient) Celtic origin and offered that role to me. Presumably on Ancient grounds. I accepted happily, impressed that, for once, they aimed to disrupt the 'wisdom must be male' never-ending story - and, by the way, for once, wanting to feature a woman who's a badass, over 26 and not simply bursting out of a bikini.

Why are the only choices Fu Manchu or Dragon Lady? If you frame issue in this manner, then you can make whitewashing any role justifiable. This comes off more as she's trying to justify taking the role rather than actually wanting to discuss the issue at hand.

Also, that last line is pretty funny. Yes, women who are older get less roles in the industry, but doesn't Margaret Cho fall under the same characteristics that Swinton mentioned as a plus? How would you feel if a person had the same qualities as you mention them as a plus for the role, and yet you were never considered for that job? That's like a slap to the face. I am not saying that Cho should have been chosen, but you have a privileged white person here who still gets work in Hollywood talking about her own difficulties while ignoring the difficulties minorities have within the same industry.

The biggest irony about this righteous protest targeting this particular film is the pains the makers went to to avoid it.

Oh, those poor film makers, just making millions and millions of dollars. Why won't someone please think about them rather than those poor minorities?

A - personal - irony to my being even remotely involved in this controversy is what I stand up for and always have. Whether it is challenging the idea of what women look like, or how any of us live our lives, or how we educate our children, diversity is pretty much my comfort zone. The idea of being caught on the wrong side of this debate is a bit of a nightmare to me.

You are still on the wrong side of this debate.

I am as sick as anybody at the lack of a properly diverse cinematic universe. Pretty much sick of the Anglophone world in general, sick of all the men's stories, sick of all the symmetrical features and Mattel-inspired limbs..

So are we, but this does nothing to help bring representation in media.

I'm a Scottish woman of 55 who lives in the Highlands. There's precious little projected on contemporary cinema screens that means a great deal to my life, if truth be told.

That's good, but that does not mean that what is projected on cinema does not have an effect on society.

So
How best might we focus this thing? To offer intelligent and empowered thinking.. And see something constructive coming out of this moment?

Ducking the issue is not what I am about. I want to meet it, but, if possible, move things forward by how I meet it.

If you want to do something, come out and talk to us. Support us in our struggles. Nice to do in private through email, but that's relatively safe in your castle in the sky.

I realise, as far as I am concerned, this possibly means saying nothing: so far I have attempted to correct the notion that I accepted an offer to play an Asian.. (!!) the most significant and damaging misunderstanding out there, it seems. Beyond that, I don't feel it appropriate for me to add anything, certainly at this point.
But I would love to know what ideas you - or anyone you know - have of something properly progressive to bring to this table. The debate is so important for all of us. It needs to build itself on strong ground.
love
Tilda

The notion is not that you accepted an offer to play an Asian, but rather, you took a role that could have been offered to an Asian and the excuses you use to justify that casting. Fu Manchu and Dragon Lady are not the only roles that Asians can play.

 

[Shadowhelper]

All of my outspoken activist friends are cheering Margaret Cho on even after the emails came out, but I just can't see it. I don't see anything wrong with what Tilda Swinton did or said.



The only reason he's in The Martian is because he was cast at the last minute due to the Indian actor's schedule not working out. They still made the character half-Indian.

I didn't know that. Still, it just seems like there is always an excuse to exclude Brown and Asian males, from popular culture. In the UK it's especially bad the exclusion of Asian males from society and culture.

When it comes to sexual tourism for white males, they'll take the women into society, further reinforcing the myth of white male superiority to other males. But almost never the men.

And going back to what Tilda Swinton said, like I mentioned, the character in the movie is fairly nuanced and not moustache twirling at all. The idea that the role played by an Asian would be reinforcing racism is pretty ridiculous. Reinforcing racism is continual excluding them, over and over, and only giving out token roles, and patronizing excuses.