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What are trans peoples' viewpoints on prenatal therapy for "cisgendering" a baby?
- Thread starter Otakumegane
- Start date
Really this seems like a magical solution and that if a magical solution was possible then magically it would be better to have the body match the mind
Its not like there aren't any trans people who didn't try hormones of their assigned sex to try to "fix" themselves, especially intersex people who were physically and hormonally assigned a sex at birth by their doctor
Maybe prenatal would be significantly different but at this point it seems like a stretch to say without making a lot of assumptions that you could just apply towards gender confirmation.
Also say you have a near 100% success rate with "fixing" the recognized flaws in fetuses, I couldn't imagine what the people that would still want to transition would go through. Imagine failing something that they correct for at birth, that would be so much worse than it is now for them. It really would make gender more binary than it really is (not that this should prevent anything that would objectively make life better for people (which ofc is arguable here))
Its not like there aren't any trans people who didn't try hormones of their assigned sex to try to "fix" themselves, especially intersex people who were physically and hormonally assigned a sex at birth by their doctor
Maybe prenatal would be significantly different but at this point it seems like a stretch to say without making a lot of assumptions that you could just apply towards gender confirmation.
Also say you have a near 100% success rate with "fixing" the recognized flaws in fetuses, I couldn't imagine what the people that would still want to transition would go through. Imagine failing something that they correct for at birth, that would be so much worse than it is now for them. It really would make gender more binary than it really is (not that this should prevent anything that would objectively make life better for people (which ofc is arguable here))
Fenderputty
Banned
Yes this is a good point.
Didn't know this. Thanks. I figured it was an oversimplification which is why I wasn't talking in absolute terms, or at least I was trying to.
Yes but from a moral standpoint, should parents make that decision for them before the child can say one way or another. Point made above ...
I just realized I left out half of what I meant to say
I dont hate my body. In fact I remember a time when I was 99% okay with it (you could imagine what the 1% was). I hated when I started to have facial/body hair, I hated when my voice got deeper, I hated how my hair thinned a bit, I hated how my proportions ended up, I hated how in my 20s my face shape changed and throughout my teens I felt more and more internally uncomfortable. None of that was a given though (at least to that extent) and I think if society would be more accepting then the remaining differences would be minimal to the point where they wouldn't be much more than normal insecurities(though still more). Ofc that's a huge ask for society but hypotheticals and all....
Otakumegane
Member
Would you mind providing that resource so i can stick it on the OP?
Here's a thought:
If the proposed magical operation somehow became a thing and became en vogue, what would that do to those of us who simply refuse to conform to societal gender norms as adults?
Already so much of the trans experience hinges on justifying our existence to the rest of the world through research pointing out that our brains and pre-natal environments were somehow different from cisgender people. Take away that "justification", what happens then? Does the already-unbearable hatred and societal ostracization become even more heated than before when even our allies are looking at non-binary and gender-nonconforming folks like freaks of un-nature because we don't have research telling people "oh, they can't help it, their brains were tuned that way in the womb"?
I feel like the whole subject is conveniently ignoring those of us who slink around in the ambiguous regions of our complex gender gradient - conveniently assuming a binary nature where there really is none. I mean, obviously, this solution only really works for those who have a severe mismatch, but again, it doesn't solve greater societal problems that would likely be exacerbated for those of us this solution does not apply to. And as long as that is the case, I simply cannot support it.
If the proposed magical operation somehow became a thing and became en vogue, what would that do to those of us who simply refuse to conform to societal gender norms as adults?
Already so much of the trans experience hinges on justifying our existence to the rest of the world through research pointing out that our brains and pre-natal environments were somehow different from cisgender people. Take away that "justification", what happens then? Does the already-unbearable hatred and societal ostracization become even more heated than before when even our allies are looking at non-binary and gender-nonconforming folks like freaks of un-nature because we don't have research telling people "oh, they can't help it, their brains were tuned that way in the womb"?
I feel like the whole subject is conveniently ignoring those of us who slink around in the ambiguous regions of our complex gender gradient - conveniently assuming a binary nature where there really is none. I mean, obviously, this solution only really works for those who have a severe mismatch, but again, it doesn't solve greater societal problems that would likely be exacerbated for those of us this solution does not apply to. And as long as that is the case, I simply cannot support it.
Without reading the whole thread, arent you confusing being transgender with being intersex?
Being trans means that your body is, or was assigned, one given sex, but as you grow, it feels like the wrong one. Theres no way of knowing if somebody is trans before theyre born.
Being intersex is where the sex of the foetus/baby is indeterminate. An intersex person may not be trans at all.
Being trans means that your body is, or was assigned, one given sex, but as you grow, it feels like the wrong one. Theres no way of knowing if somebody is trans before theyre born.
Being intersex is where the sex of the foetus/baby is indeterminate. An intersex person may not be trans at all.
Not at all. A link to the episode and a brief summary can be found here.
Gets into the nature vs. nurture debate and talks to several people on either side of both issues.
Red Arremer
Member
I feel like if we could tear down the long established gender roles and generally placing any sort of importance onto gender and sexes, being non-binary shouldn't be at all an issue.
I mean, the fact intersex exists should already completely blow up the simple binary sorting in regards to these issues, but alas. Society should be able to accept that both gender and sex aren't something that can be put into one of two drawers and learn how to transcend this whole constructed stigma surrounding not conforming to manliness/womanliness. But even though we've made a lot of progress, there's still so, SO much to do.
You misunderstood. What I was saying was that if you could find the gene, or whatever, responsible for that disconnect between, as you put it, "mind and body", that would essentially solve the need to transition.
I also said that it was an oversimplification and probably not realistic.
This is a hypothetical where they can discover the mismatched brain patterns in the womb and alter them. (This is also why this is likely to eternally be a hypothetical.)
No reason other than the mental/emotional/physical pain, the suffering, the emotional toll, the amount of time that needs to be invested, the high costs, the need to throw one's body off balance hormonally, the medical procedures that can go horribly wrong, the physical issues that can't be fixed with hormones or pills, the legal procedures, the chaos transitioning can cause even in the lives of people who have fantastic support systems, and so on.
I'm all for having less diversity in the world if it means an entire group of people aren't suffering through something needlessly. And this condition IS ABSOLUTELY "seriously debilitating" to some people, and current 2017 treatments are still akin to trying to fix an arm that's been cut of with duct tape and aspirin. We're nowhere near the point where the post-birth transitioning options are genuinely satisfactory, or actually fixes for some individuals.
Guess what: people can still play with gender roles all they want—cis people do it all the time. Nothing would stop people from identifying as non-binary if that's what they truly want.
Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. In the same breath, I'd also say that I'd love to see a world with no deaf people (since that was brought up)—because it'd mean that nobody is having to suffer through that physical defect. Same with people who are blind. Same with people in wheelchairs because of non-functioning limbs. Losing all of that "diversity" is great in my book if it means people are living better lives.
Brain patterns? What, like, Im an unborn baby and Im having excessively manly thoughts, but I have a vagina!
Ok, so, magic then... is there a point to this discussion?
You see it taking place yes? Maybe read and find out if you want to participate.
I mean, if there is a way to prevent someone feeling like their body is wrong for them, then that's a good thing to try.
You can be proud to be who you are but at the same time, like with race, no one wishes their children to have the same hardships they had.
But it all depends on whether or not you can really prevent it.
You can be proud to be who you are but at the same time, like with race, no one wishes their children to have the same hardships they had.
But it all depends on whether or not you can really prevent it.
People are so desperate for a way for trans people to not exist that theyre creating ludicrous, magic-based hypotheticals in order to lead a discussion that way?
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
If it would ever be possible to cure transsexuality in the womb, I'd be all for it. Life would have been infinitely easier if I'd been born as a non transgendered person and had been able to live a normal uneventful life like most people.
Abstrusity
Member
Honestly, if there was an out-and-out cure for being transgender, I'd jump at it. But, just like the difference between "deaf" and "Deaf," it'd vary from person to person. I'm not big on community, out of agoraphobic tendencies, so if I could stop feeling this way, and do so without painting a target on my back for every bigot, I certainly would.
Furthermore, I would also generally be in favor of fixing these types of issues before they become issues if it were actually possible -- society has thus far...resisted change to the point of violence. That might change when there's a snap back to progression, but RIGHT NOW? When in some places even talking about these issues gets you buried in hatred as an ally alone, yet alone as an LGBT person? No. If it can be cured, I probably would do that for children, too. But then, that's ALSO not my decision for other people, or their children.
I so desperately wanted to be "normal" because I was afraid of what people would do if I came out as trans. I still am. I'm still afraid of what people would do if I transitioned. Afraid of losing my job, afraid of being turned down for others, afraid of losing my lease with zero recourse. So it led me to say terrible things and be with terrible people and be a terrible person, myself. Out of some sort of twisted defense mechanism.
I wouldn't even wish that on the people who hate us.
It's never going to happen, but that's why we're going to keep pushing for rights, acceptance, and keep forcing the bigots into the fringes of society where they belong.
So no child has to suffer as they grow, afraid of being themselves for fear of what their parents or role models or teachers or friends will say or do.
Furthermore, I would also generally be in favor of fixing these types of issues before they become issues if it were actually possible -- society has thus far...resisted change to the point of violence. That might change when there's a snap back to progression, but RIGHT NOW? When in some places even talking about these issues gets you buried in hatred as an ally alone, yet alone as an LGBT person? No. If it can be cured, I probably would do that for children, too. But then, that's ALSO not my decision for other people, or their children.
I so desperately wanted to be "normal" because I was afraid of what people would do if I came out as trans. I still am. I'm still afraid of what people would do if I transitioned. Afraid of losing my job, afraid of being turned down for others, afraid of losing my lease with zero recourse. So it led me to say terrible things and be with terrible people and be a terrible person, myself. Out of some sort of twisted defense mechanism.
I wouldn't even wish that on the people who hate us.
It's never going to happen, but that's why we're going to keep pushing for rights, acceptance, and keep forcing the bigots into the fringes of society where they belong.
So no child has to suffer as they grow, afraid of being themselves for fear of what their parents or role models or teachers or friends will say or do.
Otakumegane
Member
We will absolutely have the ability to do these sorts of treatments in the future. It is far better to discuss it now than to hand-wave it as an impossibility, so we that we have the required discussions before society is blind-sided by its implications.
You're right, and the weird thing is, I knew all this going in when I wrote that post.
I have to apologize, because I'm using my own experience instead of recognizing the experiences of those who have had it far worse than I have. Hell, I know all about how inadequate today's treatments are, considering that is in large part the reason why I'm so much in the limbo I'm in now.
Really, the truth is that I'd rather the available treatments get much, much better for purely selfish reasons, since such a cure would do absolutely nothing for me. But if it means a non-trivial amount of people never have to suffer through crippling dysphoria, who am I to get in its way?
Eh. See my post above for my thoughts on this.
I honestly think things would actually get worse for those of us who don't qualify for this magic cure-all.
Also, this statement is not very... accurate when it comes to describing transgender folks who are non-binary. It's not really a "want" or a "choice", after all. If it were, I wouldn't be putting myself through this crap.
I suppose. Obviously, disabilities that affect one's quality of life should be prevented wherever possible. Still, in the situation this country is in today, I feel like we really need all the divergent people we can get to force those who would support degenerate causes to reconsider their views in light of their association with atypical people.
But I shouldn't be supporting that more people suffer from some kind of disability for that to happen, it's true. If only the country could have that demographic shift happen faster... but then again, I don't even know how that would end.
Oh lord, no it isn't.
It's obviously not the same thing when comparing people who are non-binary for whatever trans reasons, and people who just decide that they want to live that kind of lifestyle. The point still stands that there'd be nothing stopping the blurring of gender lines in a world without trans people, simply that it'd come from actual desire and not deep-seeded disconnecting inside of someone.
Then you didn't answered the person's question =P
But plenty of trans people do not enjoy the condition at all? Many in this very thread? And it's not just the society stigma and prejudice, the process of transition itself is grueling. I think what people want, namely the OP, is for people to be happier.
There's nothing to apologize for. This is a deeply personal topic, and everybody entering into it—including myself—comes at it with some level of selfishness. That's human nature.
The best solution—and this I think goes to also answering your questions about your own situation—is that there's multiple solutions, not one. It's felt like some of the posts in this thread have been either/or in terms of fixing being trans pre-birth and increasing social acceptance, but those are both part of the same answer, not separate answers. Any "fix" as is being addressed in the OP wouldn't be overnight, so the solution would be more acceptance of trans people, better resources for helping them in whatever ways science and technology currently can, AND a true in utero solution (so long as, again addressing my first post, we know the true causes for being trans).
And even then, enacting all of those fixes doesn't cover everyone. But that's also where the conversation can get uncomfortable: what if that WOULD be the fix for someone like you? If there's something that gets broken inside us to switch the way we identify versus the way we're expected to identify, couldn't that also be the cause of people who then have even deeper and more complex gender identity issues? As I mentioned in my reply to Platy, my wish for the world would be that someone like you lives in an ambiguous gender existence because you want to, not because that's the only way to live your life. I want you to have the freedom to explore those things, but also the ability to just be "regular" for whatever length of time you choose to be without it being a mental/emotional strain on you.
I don't want to be trans—but the me that exists in this moment wouldn't have wanted to just been a regular guy. But I feel that way because of whatever caused me to be trans, so if that hadn't existed in the first place, I'd probably feel great about being a regular guy. But then me being that would mean the me that exists here and now would no longer exist, and I've kind of come to like this me. But I'm the me that I am now because I've had to go through things I wish I hadn't have had to go through.
It's a hugely complex discussion that deals with the premise of changing who we currently are with a "fix" where there's compelling arguments on both sides. It's not ever going to be an easy conversation to have.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Thinking about it, the child would 100% grow up happier than they would if they were trans. And yet, on a personal level, we've tied our identities to that trans status despite it being a source of great personal discomfort in our lives.
But I do think it's selfish to think about it that way. After all, the "cure" wouldn't be for adults, but instead for unborn children who never had a say in whether they were trans or cis to begin with. It feels a bit 'icky' since it is supposedly the brain we're messing with, but assuming no side-effects (big assumption, but we're making a lot of assumptions in this thread), it's hard to justify not doing it if not doing it means a lot of untold suffering.
Heh, funny how much of this post mirrors my thoughts in parallel.
It's hard for me to picture it, because in my case everything really is so ambiguous that I genuinely don't know if it was something I was born into, or if specific circumstances of my childhood bred me this way, or what. Honestly, though, if I had the choice, indeed, I wouldn't choose to remove that part of myself. I feel like I'd be giving up a significant chunk of my identity. But I do wonder... part of me feels like it'd be really sad to lose people with atypical perspectives, assuming it were possible to tweak my brain in such a way that I grew up "normal". Like, even if I were perfectly heterosexual and cisgender, I'd still be into some odd things, I know that much, but my own unique perspective on matters would, by some degree, just be gone - and I feel like that is a real loss.
It really is a hugely complicated question, even framed as a hypothetical like this. At the very least, though, I am pretty certain I don't want anyone to suffer unduly. But now I wonder how precise those levers actually are - whether or not it's even necessary to go from one extreme to the other, or if it's possible to make that aspect of our biology completely irrelevant (that is to say, to make it so that we can inhabit any body with our brains without dysphoria). There's a lot of questions we still need answering here.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
This 'solution' really seems more like it wants to just get rid of the existence of trans people opposed to accepting them.
Trans people are depressed and suicidal at rates that dwarf the cis population because they grow believing that they're in the wrong body. What's wrong with trying to correct that imbalance???
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I suspect that when the mechanisms for development of the human brain in utero are better understood it will not be a binary on/off switch, but more likely to be probabilistic. This would make the situation even fuzzier if there was some sort of treatment that reduced probability of development along these lines, while never being certain whether or not an individual child will develop one way or another.
It's important to have discussions now rather than later so as to be better prepared for the moral implications if such a thing were to become viable.
I wouldn't want to speak for all, however my experience with trans persons is that they have not wanted to experience gender dysphoria or have that be the status quo for them indefinitely. They have wanted their gender and physical sex to be aligned. Even if the proposal being discussed in this topic was "vat-grown human bodies that you can transfer your baby's brain into at birth to match", you could still say this was "trying to get rid of trans people", although I suspect that solution would be far more acceptable to people whom are objecting to this one, since a brain alteration is far more controversial than a body one is. Which is not to say alterations at birth in general are something that are uncontroversial in general.
It's important to have discussions now rather than later so as to be better prepared for the moral implications if such a thing were to become viable.
I wouldn't want to speak for all, however my experience with trans persons is that they have not wanted to experience gender dysphoria or have that be the status quo for them indefinitely. They have wanted their gender and physical sex to be aligned. Even if the proposal being discussed in this topic was "vat-grown human bodies that you can transfer your baby's brain into at birth to match", you could still say this was "trying to get rid of trans people", although I suspect that solution would be far more acceptable to people whom are objecting to this one, since a brain alteration is far more controversial than a body one is. Which is not to say alterations at birth in general are something that are uncontroversial in general.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Are you sure it's not because of societal violence that tells them they are wrong for who they are?
I'm agender, which technically is transgender but I typically don't include myself as I don't experience nearly the prejudice those transitioning to a binary gender. I just never felt I align to what it is to be male or female. I don't feel it's in anyway important either for me to identify one way or the other. However this 'solution' gets rid of that which is part of who I am by making me identify as the gender my sex is. I think a better idea for society as a whole is to deconstruct gender norms and accept people for who they are. Even matching gender to sex many cisgender people are still bombarded with "this is what male is" and "this is what female is" and when they don't perfectly align it causes unneeded stress and in some cases the same depression transgender individuals suffer.
I'm not sure I'm tying it to the trans status, though. We accept that transwomen are women and transmen are men, and always have been. That gender is what's between the ears.
This whole thing seems contrary to that. If the brain is what needs fixed then isn't there an argument that we're merely mentally ill?
I think the more important is that we are closer to dna therapy and an easy fix for the body than even begining to understand the brain enoght to try to change something
Which makes sense because being trans is not a problem of the brain, it is a problem of the body.
And to say that the brain is cure is basicaly saying we are "i am napoleon" crazy.
Which makes sense because being trans is not a problem of the brain, it is a problem of the body.
And to say that the brain is cure is basicaly saying we are "i am napoleon" crazy.
How society deals with transgender people is in no way the only cause of those things. For example, you can experience all of that and more because of being trans when you don't even understand that you're trans due to having that disconnect inside of you.
I absolutely think "mental illness" is a potential explanation for people being transgender. The problem is, you say that, and there's instantly a stigma attached to that statement because of some of the other conditions that also fall under that umbrella. For me, though, it makes the most sense that something about the brain's wiring got put together in a way it wasn't supposed to—as in, the brain was set to develop one way while the body goes another route. The question then is is the brain set the wrong way—thus it being a mental illness of sorts—or is the brain the one set correctly and the body's switch was flipped the wrong way, thus a problem of physical development?
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
Hey man, I'm not touching this. You do you.
Karsticles
Member
In the end, it would be up to the parents of the child, and I think the vast majority of parents would opt for hormone therapy.
I would like to know what society considers the entire LBGT spectrum to be "normal". I can't see how being straight and cis will always be "normal" unless a genetic anomaly causes humans to become more disposed toward other orientations.
Do you mean acceptable?
So there is the additional factor of the body, and that changing the body is not enough to fully and adequately change the sex. For MtF transgender individuals (correct me if I am wrong), they still do not experience typical female bodily functions such as menstruation, and cannot participate in childbirth. It is an enormous undertaking to perform the equivalent of a full body-swap on a human being. Introducing hormones is a simpler resolution for the issue of an individual experiencing gender dysmorphia.
I would like to know what society considers the entire LBGT spectrum to be "normal". I can't see how being straight and cis will always be "normal" unless a genetic anomaly causes humans to become more disposed toward other orientations.
Do you mean acceptable?
You make a good point here. If we use something like a door and key analogy: you might have a key and a door that do not go together. If you change the key to fit the door, is the implication that the key was the one that was bad? I do not think that's the necessary conclusion. Rather, I can acknowledge that the key and the door are mismatched, and I can also acknowledge that I want them to match. That I change the key is not an admission that the key is faulty. In this situation, it is a fact of convenience - a new key is cheap and easy, and the door is a lot of work. Similarly, if we eventually perfected hormone therapy for babies, I think we would eventually ask the question: is it easier to change the brain, or is it easier to change the rest of the body?
So there is the additional factor of the body, and that changing the body is not enough to fully and adequately change the sex. For MtF transgender individuals (correct me if I am wrong), they still do not experience typical female bodily functions such as menstruation, and cannot participate in childbirth. It is an enormous undertaking to perform the equivalent of a full body-swap on a human being. Introducing hormones is a simpler resolution for the issue of an individual experiencing gender dysmorphia.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Did I say it was the sole contributor? No. I was responding to somebody that was correlating being transgender to an increased rate of suicide and I questioned if that has to do with actually being transgender or more so that society discriminates against it.
That's your take away? Discussing the elimination, hypothetically, of a person having to change their body in order to be who they are, and all the emotional and psychological pain related to that, is people desparately wanting trans people to not exist?
Technically, the answer is yes. Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me having to transition just to feel normal is a rather unnecessary step in living one's life.
iceatcs
Junior Member
I have people like that cos bit like anti-vaccine. The electronic medical device will go in the inner ear and cochlear that what push some people off.
CI is basically only upgraded from hearing aid. But not always better sound, cochlear implant don't amplify sound. It channels sound to bypass the damaged parts of the cochlea and directly stimulate the auditory nerve.
For example, I might be heard low pitch different (in some case worse than before) but will be better to hear a high pitch and new sound even higher pitch.
I'm deaf, and still refused CI cos I still think hearing aids doing ok enough for me, but if there is actually cured for deafness then I would go for it.
[Edit] Of course we have deaf extremism problem in the deaf community. People who refused do anything with hearing world.
This was a really insightful post.
I think there's an argument that preserving diversity of human experience, even when that experience is unpleasant, is a good thing for society. When I think about my own depression, which I likely inherited from my father, I obviously (definitionally) do not enjoy having it, but at the same time I feel that it, and my grappling with it, informs the way I interact with the world in a way that is sometimes useful and I think makes me a better person. I don't know if I would want to have that taken away. I'm sure deaf people, trans people, etc, feel similarly.
On the other hand, I'm very much talking from a place of privilege -- I'm tremendously lucky in that my own condition is very amenable to treatment and live in a subculture where mental illnesses are much less stigmatized than elsewhere. If I didn't have those things, I might well just be dead, which (I hope) wouldn't do anyone any good.
Normal as in red hair is in x% of people, not "the norm". (I made the same conflationary mistake eons ago.)
Well, your sexual organs already grow at embryonic stage. Whilst the nervous system is also developing at this stage, the pre-alpha brain will not be advanced enough to be hard wired to any gender at that point. That will come later. So you could argue it's the brain that's wrong in not matching the physical gender that has already been assigned. But on the other hand, we are our brains.. that's exactly what we are, and our bodies are just a mere shell... one which we are trapped in. So from that point of view, the body is wrong regardless of which came first,
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Well initially discussing it as a "disorder" of some variety is based on an assumption that isn't shared by everyone, namely that it is "correct" for personality and body to match and that deviation from this indicates something being wrong. Although many people choose to undertake measures to alter their body to match their gender identity, that does not necessarily mean these people would agree with that assumption broadly.
For people who do share that assumption, the distinction people make between whether it is a mental or physical disorder seems to be based on whether they argue the body is "incorrect" or the brain/mind is "incorrect", for lack of a better term to use. Since the brain/mind is considered to be the person, with the body just a shell we inhabit, it's natural for people to consider it to not be a mental disorder, but a physical one on those grounds.
From a developmental perspective I feel that is less clear cut, since you could attempt to distinguish it based on the underlying causes. While the relationship between the physical development of a person and their biological sex is well understood to be linked to genetics, to my knowledge the physiological or neurological aspect is not well understood. If it is the case that the development of an individual with respect to gender is not intrinsic (that is to say that it was not inevitable that an individual turned out the way they did wrt gender identity), but is instead impacted or determined by pre and post-natal environmental factors, then that may dramatically alter the way people think about these topics.
I don't think the hypothetical thing being discussed would prevent in any way the deconstruction of gender norms. Even years ago before Transgender and related issues were getting remotely as much press as they are today, cisgendered people were making steps towards that. Feminism in general is a powerful force for breaking down barriers here.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
Not enough people highlighted this post for being stupid.
Admittedly, I'm completely cisgendered so I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. But from a limited understanding involving dating a transwoman, seeing interviews involving trans* people in the LGBT community and things like that: the entire process involving transitioning has rarely ever eliminated gender dysphoria, only decreased it somewhat right?
So you're asking if we should do something that would eliminate it altogether? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Change the body to match the mind though if possible.
But even with that, humanity shouldn't be allowed to have gene therapy until the vast (80-95 percent) understand women and men are equal, there's nothing wrong with being any existing ethnicity, and there's nothing wrong with being gay, bi, lesbian. Hang-up about these are STRICTLY societal, and have zilch to do with the child or person.
Even then, this is a process that should be cheap as possible. Like, sonogram common. Don't just let the one percent fix the differently a led while the rest of us are stuck.
Sweet Bellic
Member
Being gay and being trans are not as analogous as you make it out to be. Addressing society's ills would certainly do wonders for the gay community, as they would be free to act upon their sexual preferences without judgment. But I suspect that, even with society's acceptance, many transgendered individuals would still be suffering. For some, even hormone therapy isn't enough to assuage their torture and help them accept themselves. I mean, look at statements like these:
This kind of sentiment makes me think a prenatal "cure" might not be such a bad thing. Sorry if this comes across as ignorant or insensitive. Also, please don't take my statment as meaning I am not in favor of improving society's attitudes towards the LGBTQIA community.
Gotta say, this attitude strikes me as myopic, irresponsible, and even inhumane. To deny someone treatment for a disability and condemn them to a lifetime without the joy of hearing music or the sound of the ocean... I'm not sure I could ever understand or defend that.
tamaster92
Member
Because even if everyone in the entire world was fully supportive of trans people it wouldnt change the fact that I wasnt born a woman and can never biologically be a true woman (uterus etc).
The other comments people made I agree with, its more a fantasy ideal than one that would work in real life. Life is far more messy and complicated than an easy solution
The true ideal would be the possibility for someone who is trans (and knows they are for sure) to somehow be able to 100% change their biological sex via medical means. Internally and externally so that you would be in no way different than if you had been born your gender.
Earthstrike
Member
This topic is a naturally emotional one, simply because some of the implications of saying yes to a hypothetical cure may imply that a trans state is undesirable.
What I want to do is look at this from the perspective of a medical professional. You have a couple of principles. One of them is do no harm. Another is to apply your knowledge and skills to improve people's medical outcomes.
Transgenderism is often misunderstood in the general public, simply because of a lack of knowledge of some of the real neurological evidence of differences that mentally exist. Gender dysphoria is more than a thought or feeling. At least, it is in part a perceptive organ of the brain giving off a negative stimuli. Let me clarify. We as humans have senses. Touch, taste, sight, etc. All senses have negative stimuli associated with them. Sounds that are too loud. Bitter flavor. Bright Light. There is a sense not often talked about, but just as real as any other. Our sense of proprioception. Proprioception is our awareness of the position of our own limbs. When we get drunk, this sense is impacted, which is why cops test for it by having us touch our nose with our eyes closed. Having an impacted sense of where your limbs are, would make this task more difficult. Our sense of proprioception is necessarily gender specific. Guys have a sense of where there penis is, and females a sense of where their breasts are. In trans individuals, they propriocept their gender identity's anatomical layout. This is why the penis "feels off" to m2f trans individuals. This is the negative stimuli associated with proprioception.
The reason this is important is because it makes clear that part of the pain that trans people suffer, is that negative stimuli. It has the same tangibility as other negative stimuli we talked about earlier (bright lights, deafening noise, etc). In this sense it is a medical disorder. It is a negative stimuli that is turned on nearly all the time. Imagine having a negative stimuli occurring nearly all the time in any other sensory organ that you can identify with. There's real neurological reasons for the tragic increased suicide rate that trans individuals have (not to dismiss the societal component of that rate.) That's also part of the reason why SRS is insured.
Now, since we are operating on a hypothetical, let's take it to be true there is some trans cure. If we believe the genders are equal, and that all humans are capable of leading happy fulfilling lives, then theoretically, it shouldn't matter whether we are born with a male or female gender identity. If that is the case, and we accept that there is a choice between letting someone grow up with birthsex a and gender identity a, or birthsex a and gender identity b, then it should be preferable to choose birthsex a with gender identity a since birthsex a with gender identity b will have unecessary suffering, and we hold gender identities a and b in equal regard.
For these reasons I would say we should medically intervene if we discover the technology to do so.
What I want to do is look at this from the perspective of a medical professional. You have a couple of principles. One of them is do no harm. Another is to apply your knowledge and skills to improve people's medical outcomes.
Transgenderism is often misunderstood in the general public, simply because of a lack of knowledge of some of the real neurological evidence of differences that mentally exist. Gender dysphoria is more than a thought or feeling. At least, it is in part a perceptive organ of the brain giving off a negative stimuli. Let me clarify. We as humans have senses. Touch, taste, sight, etc. All senses have negative stimuli associated with them. Sounds that are too loud. Bitter flavor. Bright Light. There is a sense not often talked about, but just as real as any other. Our sense of proprioception. Proprioception is our awareness of the position of our own limbs. When we get drunk, this sense is impacted, which is why cops test for it by having us touch our nose with our eyes closed. Having an impacted sense of where your limbs are, would make this task more difficult. Our sense of proprioception is necessarily gender specific. Guys have a sense of where there penis is, and females a sense of where their breasts are. In trans individuals, they propriocept their gender identity's anatomical layout. This is why the penis "feels off" to m2f trans individuals. This is the negative stimuli associated with proprioception.
The reason this is important is because it makes clear that part of the pain that trans people suffer, is that negative stimuli. It has the same tangibility as other negative stimuli we talked about earlier (bright lights, deafening noise, etc). In this sense it is a medical disorder. It is a negative stimuli that is turned on nearly all the time. Imagine having a negative stimuli occurring nearly all the time in any other sensory organ that you can identify with. There's real neurological reasons for the tragic increased suicide rate that trans individuals have (not to dismiss the societal component of that rate.) That's also part of the reason why SRS is insured.
Now, since we are operating on a hypothetical, let's take it to be true there is some trans cure. If we believe the genders are equal, and that all humans are capable of leading happy fulfilling lives, then theoretically, it shouldn't matter whether we are born with a male or female gender identity. If that is the case, and we accept that there is a choice between letting someone grow up with birthsex a and gender identity a, or birthsex a and gender identity b, then it should be preferable to choose birthsex a with gender identity a since birthsex a with gender identity b will have unecessary suffering, and we hold gender identities a and b in equal regard.
For these reasons I would say we should medically intervene if we discover the technology to do so.
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