Andrew Korenchkin
Member
I see. It's amazing how influential he is at that note. Deeply admired and influential.
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What Is Spielberg's Place Among Directors?
- Thread starter Andrew Korenchkin
- Start date
I see. It's amazing how influential he is at that note. Deeply admired and influential.
The 5 grandmasters are Fellini, Kurosawa, Kubrick, Hitchcock and Tarkovsky.
Then you need to consider Ozu, Wilder, Lean, Cassavetes, Truffaut, Renoir, Haneke, Herzog, Ford, Godard, Scorcese, Coppola, Welles, Bergman, De Palma, Leone, Lumet, Mizoguchi, Ray, etc, etc.
Spielberg is not top 5, GAF... he's probably not even top 10.
Then you need to consider Ozu, Wilder, Lean, Cassavetes, Truffaut, Renoir, Haneke, Herzog, Ford, Godard, Scorcese, Coppola, Welles, Bergman, De Palma, Leone, Lumet, Mizoguchi, Ray, etc, etc.
Spielberg is not top 5, GAF... he's probably not even top 10.
Says you.
I applaud your tastes though. Some of those guys just don't do it for me, and they leave a void for other directors like Spielberg to fill.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I like this post, and I like all the names in it.
But I don't know about putting Coppola over Spielberg. Certainly don't know about putting Lumet north of Steven, either. Wilder was a much better writer than he was director (despite his practically inventing Film Noir)
And De Palma needs to be fuckin nowhere near those names.
I'd put Carpenter up there before I put up De Palma.
edit: I've lived long enough to read someone use fuckin' Spongebob memes to denigrate Spielberg's career based on a movie he hasn't even made yet.
What strange times I've been fortunate enough to see
Fancy Clown
Member
I expected better of you, Bobby!
Merchandise
Member
-Incredibly influential, anyone who denies it is lying
-Has made some great movies, diverse filmography
-Not the GOAT
-You go to the theater and know you're at least getting your money's worth
-Has made some great movies, diverse filmography
-Not the GOAT
-You go to the theater and know you're at least getting your money's worth
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Disappointments are my specialty
seriously though De Palma is just Trash Hitchcock. Trashcock, if you will. Which is fine, because that can be fun, and he's good at it, but he's lucky to be 50/50 with his filmography, if that.
I mean, Body Double alone is enough to keep him off any fuckin "best of all time" list that encompasses the numbers 1-25.
(maybe even 1-50)
seriously though De Palma is just Trash Hitchcock. Trashcock, if you will. Which is fine, because that can be fun, and he's good at it, but he's lucky to be 50/50 with his filmography, if that.
I mean, Body Double alone is enough to keep him off any fuckin "best of all time" list that encompasses the numbers 1-25.
(maybe even 1-50)
Fancy Clown
Member
Bro, now you're just doubling down on nonesense. Body Double is trash-pop-art perfection. Trash Hitchcock shouldn't even be a negative connotation for De Palma's best stuff, as its lurid metatextual repurposing is brimming with unrestrained id and feeds back into genuinely brilliant suspense sequences that can stand toe to toe with many of Hitchcock's. Pauline Kael got the dude. Trash cinema deserves a seat at the big boy table too, and De Palma is the perfect ambassador.
Sure he's got a spotty filmography, but Blow Out, Carrie, Dressed to Kill, and Body Double at least earn him a spot somewhere with the greats. Especially if we're counting dudes like Coppola who only have a brief stint of truly great films.
Rumblebones
Banned
The snobbery is palpable.
Herr Schwarz
Banned
I like Herzog he's great!
Messofanego
Banned
Thank you for including Satyajit Ray. Haneke, Bergman, Ozu, and Tarkovsky are in my top 10.
I need to watch more Cassavetes and Truffaut, only seen Shadows and The 400 Blows. I would add Alain Resnais just for Hiroshima Mon Amour, Last Year At Marienbad, Muriel, and Je t'aime je t'aime.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Body Double is a sweaty piece of shit.
Like I said, if you're looking to give Trash cinema a seat at the table give me Carpenter. De Palma can sit outside.
(Putting fucking Craig Wasson at the center of your psychosexual freakout. Jesus Christ)
Fancy Clown
Member
Body Double will get its day sooner or later! You have to at the very least admit the mall sequence is some fuckin A+ suspense film making.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
De Palma's almost always got at least one set piece that's like "Okay, this is why I still at the least check for you."
CheeseConey
Member
He directed my favorite movie, automatically the best in my eyes.
Nappuccino
Member
Spielberg may not be a top 5 director (but honestly how do you really choose?)
But he has made several of the best films of all time. His place in the canon is set, I think. If for no other reason than he mastered the blockbuster.
But he has made several of the best films of all time. His place in the canon is set, I think. If for no other reason than he mastered the blockbuster.
DarkMaigle
Member
De Palma did the first Mission Impossible movie right? I dig that shit.
At least he doesn't insult the people who have a different opinion than him, unlike half the Spielberg fans in here. What is it with popular culture that turn their fans into schoolyard bullies?...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's not really that serious tho.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Coppola directed 4 of the best movies of the 1970s, even with his trash later career, while Spielberg's attempts to be deep or speak to the human condition more broadly are virtually always bad and play to the worst, most lowest-common-denominator parts of the American cinematic impulse, whether it's the little red coat or the stereotypical characters of Saving Private Ryan. Coppola is the Koufax of cinema - only good for a little while, but fucking GOOD when he was.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Coppola can't be Koufax because Koufax stopped.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Hmmm... This is fair, but Spielberg doesn't have anything remotely near the same artistic galaxy as Coppola's Big Four, regardless.
True Savior
Member
Outside of a possible hyperbole in that post, Spielberg's impact in movies are definitely within his blockbuster/family/adventure projects.
What snobbery? He named mostly popular and extremely revered filmmakers. He could name 20 more before Spielberg without sounding weird at all.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm starting to get the sense that of all Spielberg's "sins" when it comes to filmmaking, its the fact he doesn't really try to mask, obfuscate, or embroider his appeals to emotion in his storytelling.
Which I don't think is an inherent negative.
Wilder didn't either, if we're using names from the previously posted list (which - again, is a great list, and I honestly thought someone was JOKING when they called it snobbery but I guess they were being for real? Weird.) Neither did Truffaut, or Ford. They pretty much put that shit right up front.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, so long as its done well. He does it well.
Which I don't think is an inherent negative.
Wilder didn't either, if we're using names from the previously posted list (which - again, is a great list, and I honestly thought someone was JOKING when they called it snobbery but I guess they were being for real? Weird.) Neither did Truffaut, or Ford. They pretty much put that shit right up front.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, so long as its done well. He does it well.
Aces&Eights
Member
Fancy Clown
Member
Building off what Bobby just said, I think he also gets shit for making work within the confines of traditional genre entertainment, and plays to more basic emotional and psychological facets of the caharacters within.
But again, that shouldn't really be a negative. I think strength of emotion can trump depth of it, and he's perhaps the best example of utilizing classic Hollyood conventions to make the boundaries of film dissappear to the audience so they can be full absorbed in whatever straight shot of emotion he's ready to deliver. He doesn't often do anything too self-reflexive with his films (and when he does they're often his worst moments). But to compare to The List again, Ford was a dude that cranked out Westerns that are bare in the emotional ploys and generic appeal, and Mizoguchi's Sansho the Bailiff is about as naked and "shallow" in its emotional appeal but is all the stronger for how it is able to repeatedly hammer that home.
But again, that shouldn't really be a negative. I think strength of emotion can trump depth of it, and he's perhaps the best example of utilizing classic Hollyood conventions to make the boundaries of film dissappear to the audience so they can be full absorbed in whatever straight shot of emotion he's ready to deliver. He doesn't often do anything too self-reflexive with his films (and when he does they're often his worst moments). But to compare to The List again, Ford was a dude that cranked out Westerns that are bare in the emotional ploys and generic appeal, and Mizoguchi's Sansho the Bailiff is about as naked and "shallow" in its emotional appeal but is all the stronger for how it is able to repeatedly hammer that home.
Infernostew
Member
Definitely somewhere in my top 20. His early work is great.
superdeluxe
Member
Sounds like a good topic
I said the Beatles because Spielberg is great but still very digestible and confined within a format not known for pushing boundaries. Popcorn movies, like pop music, usually don't challenge the viewer or ask any important questions about art or life.
Both the Beatles and Spielberg mostly colored within the lines while producing the greatest art possible in this format. They didn't only push their mediums forward and inspire generations of future artists, but also set the standard for what a good adventure movie or a good pop song ought to be.
Kubrick is more like Miles Davis, because he started out in a very commercial format but quickly began producing groundbreaking material that broke a lot of rules of the medium. Their art leaves audiences much more to unpack without being too inaccessible.
Hes amazing. Ive had the great fortune to meet and work with him a couple of times and his filmography would be on my desert island list if I had to pick a single director. He just makes artful, well crafted and entertaining movies. Theres a couple of clangers in there, but his hit to miss ratio makes those exceptions that prove the rule.
Im looking forward to Ready Player One, because I think hes trying something much denser and more frenetic visually, but also because theres an irony in him lensing something that was in itself massively inspired by his material and worldview. I wonder if hell get that, and if he does, what hell do with it.
I agree with the Beatles comparison above - massively mainstream, yet incredibly varied, evolving and clever.
Im looking forward to Ready Player One, because I think hes trying something much denser and more frenetic visually, but also because theres an irony in him lensing something that was in itself massively inspired by his material and worldview. I wonder if hell get that, and if he does, what hell do with it.
I agree with the Beatles comparison above - massively mainstream, yet incredibly varied, evolving and clever.
Kotetsu534
Member
If you prefer works performed in languages other than superior English, you're a goddamned snob, got it?!
And Spielberg's a director of unquestionable significance.
DoctorFling
Member
Spielberg is great. So are a lot of other directors! Film is a wonderful thing.
I don't believe in ranking artists, there's no real definitive best in anything as subjective as art. But Spielberg is a good egg.
I don't believe in ranking artists, there's no real definitive best in anything as subjective as art. But Spielberg is a good egg.
Mortimer Brewster
Member
What's your beef with poor Craig Wasson?
Also Body Double is sleazy trash but it's interesting, beautifully shot and edited sleazy trash. Also peak mid 80's Deborah Shelton.
Still I agree De Palma has no place at the GOAT directors table, neither does Carpenter for that matter.
He's near the top. He's one of those dudes that constantly making movies and most of the time the results are good to great.
Pointing out a few stinkers in the career of a man that directed almost a movie a year for 50 years is pretty myopic. He's struck out some but that's because he's constantly swinging.
Pointing out a few stinkers in the career of a man that directed almost a movie a year for 50 years is pretty myopic. He's struck out some but that's because he's constantly swinging.
Stinkers are result of trying.
Come on, Hitchcock is a legend, we all agree on that. Please make a night on its 4 last movies and suffer.
Not all Spielberg movies are top, it does not change what he has achieved.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Dude has all the presence and charisma of a damp sock
Fancy Clown
Member
He totally fits the bill as the gormless, average, forgettable-nobody creeper who thinks he's a hero that Body Double requires though.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
All these names and he doesn't even consider Cassavetes...
Warm Machine
Member
I like going into a Spielberg movie because you don't know where he is going to go with it. There is the sort of guy who you think makes family movies and then there is the guy who has no problem blowing someone's face off. He can do both jobs and manage and maintain tone almost effortlessly on both sides of the spectrum.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Top tier. 100%.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This was exactly the word I was thinking of!
Coppola's peak was insanely good. Arguably as good as any American director sans Kubrick.