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What Is The Future of 3D Mario?
- Thread starter apana
- Start date
redbarchetta
Banned
robor said:
I just want to note that this is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen.
GroteSmurf
Member
The REAL Mario...
There are two very easy solutions to this problem that could be combined.TestOfTide said:
An auto correct option is obvious. Let the camera make sure Mario is always "up".
Or use the rotate feature of the wiimote to rotate the camera along the view axis just like you can twist the globe in the Weather Channel.
But Galaxy doesn't really seem that concerned with keeping Mario right side up. I remember numorous occasions where you have to control him walking on the "ceiling", which in turn leads to a lot of confusion with the standard relative control method.
Lamest ideas ever, and only slight variations on stuff that has already been done to death in Galaxy as part of the whole gravity gimmick.
How about an open hub-less world, that still manages to keep tight, content packed gameplay? Transport to get easily from one part of the world to another, could be flying, teleporting, warp pipes, canons etc. But make them all a fun and creative part of the game, not just a passive, boring loading screen masking device, like the shooting stars in Galaxy. And how about non-timed abilities or abilities with generous timings?
Again something that only lends itself to a space setting or a very bizarre and sureal universe. It will completely monopolise and dominate the graphical and gameplay style.
The more the better right? No! See my answer on complexity below. Less is more when it comes to powerups.
Because it slows things down and complicates in a way that really doesn't have anything to do with gameplay. See my answer below.
You didn't give me new possibilites. You gave me lame variations on stuff already done.
Humans can think fully in three dimensions, we just aren't very good at it. Full 3d without gravity takes a lot more attention and you make a lot more mistakes than in games with regular gravity as a mediating force. That's not surprising as that is the environment we evolved in. Think of the Desent games. They were full 3D and were quite difficult to play and impossible for some people, and there you had the advantage of seeing the world in first person. Imagine adding another "dimension" to control, by adding 3rd person perspective.
Funny you say that, I get the same feeling. Could it be something common to all discussions between two persons? ;-)
Gravity as a very involved and sometimes intrusive part of the gameplay, and it needlessly slows things down and complicates.
No, because metal Mario played along the same rules and premise as the rest of the game. Mario could move in three dimensions, and wasn't suddenly stuck in a weird 2½D universe. The same with the more linear levels in 64, you could still move in the third dimension.
So you'd be happy if Mario was replaced with a coloured block and his enemies was differently coloured blocks and the whole universe was just flatshaded simple polygon surfaces? Mind, this is still a premise, although an abstract and simple one.
People play games to be active not to sit passively back. Integrating passive story in a game can be done but it takes great skill and care. In Galaxy they did not succeed.
In fact read the interviews. They had discussions about whether to put this stuff in the game at all. But Miyamoto gave in to some stupid young punk who insisted. That's what I mean by the whole game feeling coagulated and disjointled. There isn't a common good idea or force or person pulling the whole game together.
Constant change equals noise and chaos. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Galaxy feels chaotic, but it is further along the scale. Noise is monotony's equally ugly twin sister. They are two sides of the same coin. I'd say that 64 strikes a very happy balance.
You want new stuff to do, but you also want to get to know the place and the stuff you do in it, and get good at it.
It's halfhearted in the sense that it's a cocktease of a 64 level without giving you the real thing. And yes, they are space themed in the sense that it has all the gravity stuff going on and shooting stars.
Guess what, lava is a liquid. Liquids tend to be flat. Hence the flat surface. Plus N64 probably didn't have the power to do dynamic geometry of this scale.
But the two lava levels from 64 you mention, are far from flat. In fact they are some of the most intricate and vertically oriented in the whole game. Just remember going inside the volcano. Play them again and you'll see.
Can't imagine how that would work. Gravity oriented gameplay would be ok for a single level, but after that, the possibilities and novelty has worn out.
I mean look at all of the above. I address your query there.
That is one of the most untruthful comments I've read.robor said:
Maybe your post didn't warrant substance because it itself was lacking any?
Oblivion said:
Don't look at me.
redbarchetta
Banned
robor said:
That was not the argument I responded to, the one which was so acutely persnickety, required no further substance to explain its stupidity.
redbarchetta
Banned
robor said:
Your complaint of being able to long jump in lieu of running has no impact on the platforming element of the game. Your're arguing that the platforming isn't as "tight," which isn't at all contingent on your silly "long-jumps is better than running" point. And if it were, then it would also be applicable to Galaxy, which you've already admitted is a factor in that game as well.
redbarchetta
Banned
robor said:
Had you said that originally, instead of "It completely renders Mario's running void and useless," your point would have seemed a lot less fastidious.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Jea Song said:
Nor has Halo or Call of Duty.
"That was a really dumb post. The levels in Sunshine were huge and featured a million different ways of getting from point A to point B. People like open ended games because they offer exploration, not because you can choose the order in which you attempt certain missions. Nobody considers the Mega Man games to be shining examples of open-ended gameplay."
What? I've beaten the game with 120 stars and all I remember was walking on a flat terrain with a few buildings on it and spraying water 90% precent of the time. What kind of 'differnet ways' was there to get to a star if the levels design, for the most part, were too simple for their own good. I'm guessing the hotel-level was an exellent showcase of your claim. Such a fun time it was walking in a hotel and talking to people, with little to no platforming what so ever..
I still can't believe how some people can give Nintendo a pass on the lame 'exchanging 10 blue coins for a star'. Perhaps the most lazy design in a game ever...
What? I've beaten the game with 120 stars and all I remember was walking on a flat terrain with a few buildings on it and spraying water 90% precent of the time. What kind of 'differnet ways' was there to get to a star if the levels design, for the most part, were too simple for their own good. I'm guessing the hotel-level was an exellent showcase of your claim. Such a fun time it was walking in a hotel and talking to people, with little to no platforming what so ever..
I still can't believe how some people can give Nintendo a pass on the lame 'exchanging 10 blue coins for a star'. Perhaps the most lazy design in a game ever...
redbarchetta
Banned
Amir0x said:
I thought they were rather terrible (in addition to tedious and unclear). I only finished it because of my OCD tendencies at the time. Thank god I got over them before Acheivements came out. :lol
Amir0x said:looking "great" with an HDTV is not the same as a game being HD. Which is a significant leap visually. sure you know that but still
Yeah but there is not much to discuss regarding HD because it will happen when it happens. Nintendo wont make a new console because they feel 3D Mario needs to be in HD, and its not a big concern for most people at the moment because of how good Mario already looks. I think someone today said that Mario games could have CG movie level graphics next gen, but I'm not sure what that means. I wouldnt really enjoy the look that Pixar movies have for a Mario game.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
A Mario without the waggle set in the Galaxy universe. At least that's what I want.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
apana said:
Waggle is what ruined both Galaxy 1 and Galaxy 2 for me. I just can't get into a game that requires it. I have tried multiple times and it just doesn't click. However, I may just prefer 2D Mario anyway. As much as I loved and still love Mario 64 since it came out, no Mario has been able to duplicate the enjoyment I had with SMB1 and SMB3.
Busaiku said:
I enjoyed it but some people definitely had problems, there will always be holdouts who are going to love the traditional controller. It doesn't help that the wii remote doesn't always work the way its supposed to. Gamers should learn to adapt because it is the controller upon which all future controllers will be based. Sony already copied it and I'm sure Microsoft will in the future.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
apana said:
I just despise waggle. I have a Wii and a few games. I sometimes go back to them and give them another try but it just doesn't work for me. I'm holding out for DKC and Zelda but even then I don't have a lot of faith that I will enjoy them, thanks to waggle.
LovingSteam said:
The only problem I have with the Wii remote is that sometimes it doesnt register my movements. Like I said I think the 3DS is the best option for you at this point unless advancements in tech or design are able to correct whatever issues you are having. Have you tried the Move?
TestOfTide
Banned
Squeak said:
If you had twisting the wiimote control the camera then players would get annoyed with having to constantly make sure they keep their hand steady.
It minimized confusion by giving the player blatant warnings that the orientation and/or control was going to change. ALso, this is why nintendo made Galaxy 1 so ridiculously easy in the first place: to get players used to the idea of gravity not being like in 64. Just like how MANY people were getting confused when they first tried 3D mario.
You asked me show you that there are still mario different ways to play around with gravity and I did. You're only response is that they are lame. You're in the minority here, and obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all you are doing is insisting that gravity the gravity got old and that's why SMG and SMG2 were meh when:
1) The game didn't focus entirely on gravity and had many "regular" 3D sections in which the player played around with new 3D mario concept. Hence things like freezeflame's ice mountain, freezy flake's lava section, sweet sweet galaxy's conveyor belt cookies, the final section of space dust (with the platforms snapping into place), and the infamous liugi's purple coins.
2) I just showed you just a few of many was of expanding on the gravity concept and you haven't even tried any of them. You just assumed they were lame because you want something more like a 3d super metroid without powerups.
So EXACTLY what I said earlier (I said that the next mario game should have more seamless transitions). Only difference being that I think they should keep fooling with gravity and dimensions as well while you think that would somehow make the game stale.
Great idea, and has the potential to be a lot more interesting than yet another castle or some theme that restricts what levels can be done like in sunshine. Hell, that could even allow more new concepts like screwing around with mirrors more than just a single room or having the size of things constantly change.
Oh wait sorry, that too complicated for you we should just stick to making mario 64 2.
Not simply "the more the better", just that with a genre like a platformer, people like the idea that they are trying something new. Adding so much stuff that it becomes annoyingly complicated is what made Banjo Tooie annoying.
Besides eliminating loading times, how do you suggest a fresh, fun mario game be made without screwing around with gravity and/o giving new abilities that completely change the way old things can be approached.
So it slowed things down to fool around with the game's mechanics? People also found that it was slower to accomplish things in 3D than in 2D due to now having to make sure mario is jumping and moving in the right direction.
[quoteHumans can think fully in three dimensions, we just aren't very good at it. Full 3d without gravity takes a lot more attention and you make a lot more mistakes than in games with regular gravity as a mediating force.[/quote]
This is the stubborn-ness I am talking about. You would rather we not try new things because it'll "complicate and confuse people".
First person isn't an advantage nor is third person view "another dimension" of control, especially when third person lets you get a better sense of collision detection from all angles, which I assume would be something to worry about when navigating a spaceship in 3D. BUt of course having the ting you're controlling being able to mario and turn in all directions regardless of the environment is going to be confusing. That' why some people love games like ace combat and others found it too confusing to control.
It's funny, because this is EXACTLY what you thought the camera should be like, yet have now explained why that type of camera would be too confusing to work. Thanks for proving my point.
While we are at it, lets take away the 3D because it needlessly slows down and complicates part of the gameplay.
Except for two differences, which were the fact that he sank underwater and he was invincible.
The only difference between the freefall cyllinder and a regular 2D section was that instead of a bottom, the vertically stage looped back like how the main levels in Mario Bros looped horizontally.
Which is why off course no good game tries to throw too many new concepts to the player at once. They introduce a new concept, then introduce another new concept, and THEN in a later level combine the two concepts.
Mario should at least be something with that looks like he can jump and do different acrobatic tricks. A block suddenly jumping would come off as both a glitch and disconnected from its world (unless this was some weird block themed game).
Enemies should, like in mario be able to give you a hint as to ho they hinder the player from getting from A to B. A simple block does not do that.
And I don't want another mario 64 (a bunch of flatshaded simple polygon surfaces) because such a thing would lack variety.
:lol no one gives a shit about the storyline of a mario game. In fact, the one area where the galaxy games were inferior to 64 was that 64 had a lot less story. It gave a simple letter, put you the world, and then you got to immediately play the game.
64 doesn't strike a balance when the player is constantly going through the same parts of the level just to get to the new stuff in each and every level. That's real monotony. This is why people hate when a game makes you back track while love getting to constantly try new levels.
No, i's not space themed. Space Dust galaxy is space themed. Battlerock galaxy is space themed. A bunch of nature related stuff isn't space themed. It's just a surreal a nature themed world where you see stuff like giant apples and moles leaving burrow trails.
And luckily the galaxy games don't try and be realistic with anything, they let you platform in places that are physically impossible.
PS: liquid forms spheres when it is in an area of insignificant gravity
And you don't think console limitations has anything to do with galaxy's linearity? No, clearly the wii could make a game as smooth and deliberate looking as galaxy while making it as open as a GTA game. And I'm sure a console that can't handle the havok engine in 3D could handle intricate gravity in a more open world. :lol
How in the fuck was lavaland vertically intricate. Literally everything was on the same altitude.
I'm not saying it's always gravity oriented, but that instead just something far too similar to crackdown without guns, it would be better to make a game that with parts that goes for some platforming variety.
You mean explaining to me that you would rather limit the possibilities for levels than try and evolve the series (and I mean by doing more than just the obvious minimizing the in between crap). You definitely made that loud and clear.
As you might remember (apparently not) I said that you engage camera mode by pressing B. When not pressing B you are free to move the wiimote however you want.TestOfTide said:
Så the concept is so hard that they figured they needed a whole game to train people before the real challenge AND needed to have a spin to win option for the really dense?
No I'm raising points as to why that is. And your ideas were just slight variations on things already done to death in the existing games. I didn't hear anyone cheering for your ideas.
Little random ideas, detached from the Mario universe as such, only made possible by the card blanche to do what ever the f*ck you can think up in a 10min brainstorm, that the space setting is.. A few of them might have been fun as bonus levels in a real Mario game, but not a whole freaking game of them. The Ice Mountain was just as I said a halfhearted 64 level, and a perfect example of the framing and customization of the scenes to fit the camera. Purple coin levels was just collectatons with almost no emphasis on exploration but more on luck and going over the same damn route a million times to get it perfect before time runs out. OCD for ya!
I don't even get what you are saying here. Not tried any of them?! No, because it's all in your fantasy. On the other hand, I did try them already, in the Galaxy games.
How would you do that if you are not limited to small planetoids and space junk?
And
Oh, you're right of course. Why not add even more to the fun by mirroring the controls at random, making Mario invisible, doing the whole levels in psychedelic flashing colours, making the game abide to negative energy universe laws. Wouldnt that be totally kooky?
It can also become a crutch, instead of just doing a great gameworld. just trow in more powerups that'll hold the little SOBs.
You don't have to twist and turn all the time in a desperate struggle to be original. That's the trouble with a lot of media these days. It's like they think the audience has a finger on the remote all the time ready to change the channel if there is even the slightest tingle of boredom. They have flop sweat as they feverishly try to say or do something surprising.
But you can't do something original on command. And if you try, it will always come out as a forced stilted attempt, that will just be a distorted variation or conglomeration of something already done.
Just do what you do best, and add new ideas as they come to you. Then in time, if you are lucky, things will add up, reach critical mass, and you'll have something original.
Outside of a few unavoidable pathological cases, that was only for a very short while, until you got used to the controls. That is a problem all 3d games have to some extent, also Galaxy. 3DS should fix that.
Fps view, like in Descent, makes it easier to judge distances, that was my point.
I'm not sure what you are getting at, but not having control of you're camera in a 3D game is by far the worst option. It makes everything harder.
3D like colour and sound is something that ads to the sensory experience at a low level. Gravity not at all.
Not something that amounts to a change in the laws of the universe. A sudden and inexplicable change from 3D to 2D is something Nintendo just pulls out of their ass. Ass pulls is a no go in any kind of media, where you rely on humans inherent want to believe and go with you, you could say it's a betrayal of trust in some way. Just like that irritating kid that always changed the rules of a game when you were playing with him.
What is it with the freefall cylinder as you call it, that makes it so wonderful and new?
If you don't care the slightest bit about the Mario universe, why are you even here discussing? Why not just find other games that satisfies your needs?
Not caring about the universe is something only a robot would be able to do. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.
Whether the princess was kidnapped again or not is of little importance, but what happens to Mario in the game is that not a story in some sense of this very ambiguous word? If not, then what is it?
BTW, do you even know what flatshaded means? 64 is only flatshaded where it is flat.
Yeah, those 10 seconds from the spawnpoint on the way to your new mission is torture!
Again, space themed in that it has gravity, small planetoids and freefloating pieces of rock as the world.
And that is inherently good how?
That is the lamest excuse as to why Galaxy should be linear that I have ever heard. Bububu the graphics would be worse.
Art direction is the name of the game. Not technical proficiency.
Again, inside the volcano and the building you have to negate to get the last star.
The Bowser level I think speaks for itself.
The art of limiting yourself and setting a framework, is just as important as being able to freely associate. Mario wouldn't be Mario without the characteristics in his universe and what he does. Nintendo is on the way to pulling the rug under all that. As someone who likes the series, I think that's a pity.
For at great example of how to do new stuff that still has a very Mario feel to it, look at one of the greatest 2D Marios: Super Mario Land 2. Here Mario even goes to space in one level and jumps around in Moon gravity. There is just so much creativity and originality in that game. There is the slime world, the Halloween world, the toy world, the sunken ship world, the Bee world (yes another theme Galaxy borrows), forrest and swamp world etc. All of which has a unique look and feel to it.
Man this thread is so awesome lol. (Sorry for the mini epic bump but I'm getting a bit sick of talking about Ocarina of Time and stuff.)
I'm soooo pumped for 2D/3D Mario on 3DS. Any guesses how far away it will be, given Paper Mario 3DS's tentative Holiday 2011 release?
To refresh people's memories, here is Miyamoto's quote from 2 months ago:
I wonder if this particular "Mario product" could simply be a port of Super Mario Galaxy 1+2? Which would be cool, I guess, but I imagine they'll want to release a brand new fully immersive 3D game at some point down the line. Unless they're strapped for development time and decide to save a new 3D game for Wii 2. ... or maybe he was referring to Paper Mario 3DS? But I presume he wouldn't have been so coy about it if that were the case.
Meanwhile we're heading into our sixth year since New Super Mario Bros. on the DS. I can imagine a New Super Mario All-Stars release at some point, lest Nintendo wish to gain a reputation for exploiting their system with port after port.
I think with the 3DS and its online capabilities it's about time for a bit of a Mario revolution.
"Super Mario 3D"
- 3D visual display
- 8 brand new worlds
- motion controls (gyroscope, accelerometer, plus touch screen)
- online 4P multiplayer (co-op or competitive)
- level editor / download other people's levels
- return of Shy Guys!
I'm soooo pumped for 2D/3D Mario on 3DS. Any guesses how far away it will be, given Paper Mario 3DS's tentative Holiday 2011 release?
To refresh people's memories, here is Miyamoto's quote from 2 months ago:
I wonder if this particular "Mario product" could simply be a port of Super Mario Galaxy 1+2? Which would be cool, I guess, but I imagine they'll want to release a brand new fully immersive 3D game at some point down the line. Unless they're strapped for development time and decide to save a new 3D game for Wii 2. ... or maybe he was referring to Paper Mario 3DS? But I presume he wouldn't have been so coy about it if that were the case.
Meanwhile we're heading into our sixth year since New Super Mario Bros. on the DS. I can imagine a New Super Mario All-Stars release at some point, lest Nintendo wish to gain a reputation for exploiting their system with port after port.
I think with the 3DS and its online capabilities it's about time for a bit of a Mario revolution.
"Super Mario 3D"
- 3D visual display
- 8 brand new worlds
- motion controls (gyroscope, accelerometer, plus touch screen)
- online 4P multiplayer (co-op or competitive)
- level editor / download other people's levels
- return of Shy Guys!
I didn't realize that this had been bumped. I think both 2d mario and 3d mario are the ultimate killer apps for the system. Mario is a game that doesn't have so many rules, so there is a lot of room to experiment. Super Mario Galaxy 3 would complete the trilogy and could possibly be game of the century. For Wii 2 I think an exploration platformer is looking more likely, the sucess of Epic Mickey shows people are still interested in that type of platformer. At the very least they aren't turned off by it!
-Pyromaniac-
Member
The one thing I agree with most.Gravijah said: