balladofwindfishes
Member
Dota 2 professional players make far more money than League Players. It's a bigger competitive, professional game, even if the regular gameplay numbers are lower than League.
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Which MOBAs Are The Most Competitive/Most Complex/Most Easy/Most Fun?
- Thread starter Duplolas
- Start date
I agree with you, but I also just want to point out that popular =/= good.
I'm not a fan of simple games, but I can understand why someone would want to play Heroes over DOTA.
Armageddon
Neo Member
I would assume they would add some sort of server browser for custom games as they already kind of have one with the lobby system. The lobby system's main drawback right now is that you can only browse non-friend lobbies by using a common password. That being said, I cannot see a reason why they would replace the matchmaking system with a server browser. That just sounds like WC3 DotA levels of bad.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
And to bring up your Quake comparison once more, it's a bad comparison. Arguably a game like Halo or CoD is more complicated because of the systems that each game has in comparison to Quake. Quake is arguably one of the more simpler shooters if you compare it to shooters these days. It's because it's simple and fast that it is more fun compared to shooters where you have to select a load out and various perks that affect your gameplay.
So...it's a bad example for you to bring up. You're simply making a simple game even more simpler by using it as an example.
Oh, I never said popular=/=good. I think that League has become an aberration these days. I would prefer DotA or Heroes over it. So I agree with you on that.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Most Competitive - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Complex - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Easy - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Fun - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Complex - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Easy - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Most Fun - Adventure Time: Battle Party
Why would anyone want this? It was terrible for DotA, not to mention how no skill detection will lead to a massive increase in shit games. Do you really want to go back to the Dotacash days?
I think he probably means how competitive it can consistently be at all levels.
Lets be honest here, the level of play in pub games and pro games is completely different, even in Dota at all MMR levels, the level of play in a high MMR Dota match will still be much different than say, the final of the International. That said, even in Dota it consistently remains competitive. Even in the 3000-4000 MMR range, you still get those crazy nail-bitingly close games. Just the other day I had a 95 minute Dota match, and won it. After that one I had a 60 minute match that we definitely should not have won, due to the other team having a "harder" carry than our team did, but we managed to come out on top. Often you see people group up and maybe use Smoke of Deceit, making their teammates near by invisible, to set up for a pickoff on someone.
Not only that, you hear teams often discuss ways to optimize the lanes based on the other team, or do different builds to compensate for a lineup they are with or against.
For instance, I was in a game where I was Sven on a team with four other carries. Aghanim's Scepter is an item that upgrades your ultimate on most heroes, and on Sven, his ultimate gives him more damage, but Aghanim's for him gives his teammates this damage boost as well. We had 4 carries, so being able to make all of them hit hard with just one item, Aghanim's fairly quick was a must in this situation. Usually doing that would be unorthodox, but it was definitely a good idea here.
SteveWinwood
Member
i would like a better definition of what youre looking for out of "competitive" please thank you
also this is pretty much the right answer regardless
also this is pretty much the right answer regardless
All others answers are now null and void.
SneakyStephan
Banned
farmville, clash of clans and angry birds are simpler and more popular than cod.
simple is pretty fucking bad.
Quake3 was a much better game than any cod, the latter is just more approachable which in turn makes it more popular. It doesn't make it better though.
What's popular has no bearing on quality.
Transformers 2 had way higher box office numbers than district 9 or amelie poulin. It's still unwatchable tripe though.
dota 2 has no communities, just like every other matchmaking game.
You play with randoms or you (very akwardly) queue up with people on your friendslist when they don't happen to already be in a game.
2000+ hours in dota 2 and while I've added a bunch of people to my friendslist and play with them now and then, in any other game by the 50 hour mark I had found several servers with similarly skilled and similarly minded people who I get to know and play with every day. A server becomes a place for you to meet up with those same people again. It's a place to make friends, like your local bowling club or soccer field.
It's been the established, flawless way of doing competitive multiplayer for the longest time.
Dota (and any other game with matchmaking) doesn't form communities like that , it's just an endless rotation of randoms that you play against which in turn is the cause of all the toxity in dota.
A dedicated server community is never toxic, as the people who don't get along go somewhere else or get kicked out. (and those who never learn how to use a server browser or can't get along with anyone become so called 'pub tards')
CS has countless surf and KZ_ communities and every clan server and even most of the public server have their regular crowd , battlefield had stunt clans and servers etc
There's a good reason why 'pub' used to be a bad word in multiplayer games, because playing against strangers is awful compared to playing with regulars. matchmaking forces you into that awful pub experience. Every matchmade game is a pub.
dota has mmr and playing against a bunch of strangers you'll never see again.
The closest you can get in dota is custom games with wacky rules (5v5 axe mid or something), simply because there's so few people doing it that you end up with the same people over and over.
This makes no sense. Dota has the same thing but with numbers. Except Dota just has a bunch of competitions. Instead of basing it off an ELO system.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Farmville, CoC, and Angry birds aren't shooters last I checked, so they're false equivalences. Yeah, Quake 3 probably has better and faster shooting mechanics, but it's also a simpler game compared to CoD. CoD just happens to have blown up in popularity because it takes that feel of a fast twitchy arena shooter but modernizes it.
And I think District 9 and Amelie suck. Transformers is a fun movie, albeit shit. I just watch it for the explosions.
I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Quake 3 is more simple than CoD. Just the movement system in Quake has enough depth to be a game on its own.
How do you feel about the description now?
SteveWinwood
Member
that sounds like a retread of the most easy
i get that youre going for like an average skill to depth ratio or something but i dunno
If you are X good at MOBAs and one game is a X level of complexity while another is X level of complexity, which do you feel more competitive playing?
SteveWinwood
Member
you need to use different variables or else it doesnt make sense
there is a very small baseline of skill that goes across mobas (dont run into 5 heroes as one, farm efficiently, understand how to push shit like that) and after that the skill becomes incredibly specific to that game as thats the nature of the balance in the genre in my opinion, squeezing the most out of very specific and detailed niches in even more specific situations through deep understanding and skill which is what gives them nearly unlimited replayability and super high skill ceilings
as long as you have the patience and the time you can be competitive in any moba as none of them are incredibly impenetrable (even though for some reason dota has a reputation for being so)
if we had twins of completely equal skill and they learned things at the same speed and one was learning league and one dota i dont know who would be in the top 10% of players faster and how much and at what speed they could progress faster ive never played league at such a level or really watched pub games at that echalon
CountAntonius
Member
Smite is an amazingly fun game that is different enough from the others to set it apart. Hope it keeps growing.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Movement really isnt all that complicated in Quake. Everyone has the same movement and everyone has the same potential of weapons as well. In CoD or Halo however, specially so in the latest CoD, movement isnt as simple as you think it is. If we were just judging these titles on movement, Quake would probably win. But we're not, a game is a sum of all its parts. And CoD definitely had more to it in terms of systems and therefore has more complexity than Quake.
you need to use different variables or else it doesnt make sense
there is a very small baseline of skill that goes across mobas (dont run into 5 heroes as one, farm efficiently, understand how to push shit like that) and after that the skill becomes incredibly specific to that game as thats the nature of the balance in the genre in my opinion, squeezing the most out of very specific and detailed niches in even more specific situations through deep understanding and skill which is what gives them nearly unlimited replayability and super high skill ceilings
as long as you have the patience and the time you can be competitive in any moba as none of them are incredibly impenetrable (even though for some reason dota has a reputation for being so)
if we had twins of completely equal skill and they learned things at the same speed and one was learning league and one dota i dont know who would be in the top 10% of players faster and how much and at what speed they could progress faster ive never played league at such a level or really watched pub games at that echalon
What I was hoping for really was that I could judge why someone thought one game was more fun/more complex/more competitive/more easy by looking at the 3 other answers.
To see how complexity and competitiveness relate to how much enjoyment people got out of a game, if you could determine someone's level of skill through their opinions on the previously stated subjects, and through that, be able to know which game would be most enjoyable to people at a certain skill level. But I don't know I feel about this currently.
Abilidebob
Member
I'm sorry, but DotA was known for its "toxic" community way, way before DOTA 2.
It using server browsers, Battle.net, matchmaking, Garena or whatever honestly make no difference in how toxic the community is.
Thats like saying I can't get trolled on a community run TF2 server that has moderators.
It just means that that troll might get caught and possibly get in trouble, but really, all of these MOBA games have moderators, infact, theres one in every game.
Its called the report system.
Now how smart the report system is compared to a actual moderator is up in the air.
sleverfunk
Member
Most Competitive - Dota 2
Most Complex - Dota 2
Most Easy - Hots
Most Fun - Dota 2 and Hots
Most Complex - Dota 2
Most Easy - Hots
Most Fun - Dota 2 and Hots
SteveWinwood
Member
how is hots fun
and how long will it last you
and how long will it last you
Most Competitive - League of Legends/Dota 2
Most Complex - Dota 2
Most Easy - Heroes of the Storm
Most Fun -Super Monday Night Combat League of Legends
Both games are fairly equal in competitiveness as the rank system will always encourage people to climb/raise your MMR. However I guess Dota 2 has more diversity in its character pools and it gives the player all the tools from the get-go but League does a better job of easing in the player through leveling up/grinding IP so the player is ready for rank when the time comes.
Also I would say League is more fun then Dota due to it being faster paced but the bias could be strong here as most of my friends play League.
Most Complex - Dota 2
Most Easy - Heroes of the Storm
Most Fun -
Both games are fairly equal in competitiveness as the rank system will always encourage people to climb/raise your MMR. However I guess Dota 2 has more diversity in its character pools and it gives the player all the tools from the get-go but League does a better job of easing in the player through leveling up/grinding IP so the player is ready for rank when the time comes.
Also I would say League is more fun then Dota due to it being faster paced but the bias could be strong here as most of my friends play League.
The title of most fun is going to go to the one you play, for me it's Dota but for LoL players it's gonna be LoL. That said, I have played both and find Dota's more complex yet more free-form games to be more fun for me personally, but some people prefer LoL's stricter gameplay flow, its all a matter of taste really.
AdventureMike
Member
One and done.
You have clearly never played Counter-Strike.
Uhhh what? Dota absolutely has that. They're called In-House Leagues. Maybe you just aren't a very good player and haven't been invited/recruited into one? Obviously I have no idea of your skill level so I am not trying to "slam" you here.
The only difference between IHL's and having a server browser with a favorite server as you are suggesting is that a server is technically open to anyone but you need to be invited to an IHL. I mean, just the NeoGAF Guild alone is constantly having In House games.
reSpec Gaming
Member
Agree with competitive and complex (although, Dota would be more competitive if they took out denying, which they'll never do because that's just part of that game. *ducks from brick thrown from DOTA players* LoL isn't far behind as it has its complexity under layers that are not apparent when you first play the game until you get into the competitive scene).
I put Heroes of the Storm in at easy by design. No items, less focus on tech skill (although 1v1 outplays are still pretty sick), and simply winning by being with your team (at least at lower levels of play).
Most fun is a complicated answer for me.
Heroes of the Storm, I more consistently have fun. There are less play sessions where I'm annoyed or frustrated at how games went. Mostly because of the short game time. Even if things are frustrating, it's frustrating for 20 minutes and you move on. League, because I'm the type to never surrender, it's frustrating for like 40 minutes or longer.
However, there's a gambler's joy in LoL. The way I feel about it, 20% of all games there's no chance for you to win and it sucks and you hate your life for awhile. Another 20% of games you win and it's a faceroll and the other team wasn't very good so even that's not very fun (unless you've had a losing streak for awhile). 60% of games are close (even if the score isn't) and if you're good enough, you carry your team or you're not good enough and you don't carry your team. If you're in the right ELO, you win half of those games. So... basically, there's a 30% chance you win a game that was competitive. Those are the best games and are super fun. But for every 3 games you have that were awesome, basically 7 games either weren't that fun but you queue again because you want to play in one of those 3/10 games.
HotS I probably have fun in 70% of games played. So on average, I'll have a more fun time playing HotS. Probably lending largely to the fact that I don't care and I'm just playing. LoL I play in competitive tournaments so I care more on a game to game basis so solo queue has its frustrations but, man, those 30% of games are freakin' awesome.
Which brings me to competitive scene. LoL I have infinite fun when I'm playing in a competitive team at a tournament. That's my jam, that's where all the fun is every game no matter what. I can't comment on the HotS competitive scene because I'm not part of that. But I will say I have fun every time I play LAN with my friends in HotS.
So after all that, it might just be the most fun game is the game you play together with other people. I just enjoy playing whatever game I'm playing with people. Probably because I played team sports growing up. So...
TL;DR: The most fun game is the game you play with you friends.
SteveWinwood
Member
i would love for you to expand on this for me
Wouldn't removing an essential part of the laning phase make the game less competitive?
To be honest its not even that essential, the more important issue is controlling the creep wave so it's near your tower through creep pulling, denying and careful last hitting.
close the thread
SteveWinwood
Member
in higher levels the denied experience is absolutely essential
the deficit can be astounding
its not as bad as it used to be though with the changes but its still a huge deal
reSpec Gaming
Member
*prepares for backlash*
Then you compete in a battle of attacking each other as opposed to attacking your own minions. Hence why Guinsoo removed it when making LoL because it was not actually possible to remove it from Dota Allstars.
balladofwindfishes
Member
How is this bad?
Laning would be a bore without the minigame of denying. The anticipation and calculation of getting a perfect deny is great. You have to juggle harassing your enemy while at the same time playing a minigame against them to see who can nab a creep first. It's more complex and interesting, especially when you can get a risky deny in, or are a ranged hero with a slow projectile and need absolute perfect timing to deny against a melee hero
And there's nothing quite as satisfying as using your own summoned minion or whatever to deny yourself when you're able to.
SteveWinwood
Member
i mean the skill comes in doing both and balancing it all
if you focus on harassing without getting last hits and he has sufficient regen you lose
if you focus on last hitting and he harasses you and makes you lose last hits and xp because you went back to base you lose
if you can harass and get farm efficiently you win
it takes a lot of skill and experience and thats why 1v1 mid is so fun to watch there are a lot of levels to it and when you start getting into different playstyles like s4 vs sumail vs sing vs rtz vs dendi and how they all play off each other its amazing with the mind games and the animations and all that
if denies, or even last hits, were removed im not sure what youd be doing half the time it would be like hots where you just throw shitty low damage spells at each other and nothing interesting happens
So in your opinion removing last hitting and jungle creeps also increases the competitive nature of the game? Why not remove creeps altogether since all it does is get in the way of attacking each other?
Wolf Akela
Member
Not sure how adding complexity makes something more competitive. Lots of real sports have very simple rules, yet they're all very competitive. Shoot ball through hoop. Kick ball to net. Run fast. Punch other guy.
Adding 7 extra pieces to chess won't make it more competitive. You can have the most complicated game in the world, but if no one plays it, there's no competition to speak of.
Adding 7 extra pieces to chess won't make it more competitive. You can have the most complicated game in the world, but if no one plays it, there's no competition to speak of.
SteveWinwood
Member
which is why checkers has always been more popular than chess and the pro scene is followed around the world for their tournaments