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Why is Final Fantasy X considered much better than Final Fantasy XIII?

Gattsu25

Banned
Ok, I don't know how GAF feels about strawpolls in comments but I've been too curious. So I made a poll asking if you've played XIII, what your experience was with XIII-2 (including an option for those who didn't play it).

http://www.strawpoll.me/13535593
Doesn't have a category for me: I liked FFXIII but have no interest in playing FFXIII-2 or FFXIII-3
FFX has the Song of Prayer. *drops mic*
*nods*

Wandering Flame from the original OST (not that arranged mess of a track from the HD edition) is secretly the best track that Square has ever made IMO
 

Arkeband

Banned
Mechanically, FF13 is shit. FFX is so fine-tuned and even lets you customize your party. FF13 literally stops you from leveling so you can't approach fights in ways they don't want you to.

When you factor in the superior music, the Star Wars-ey vibe that we hadn't seen since 7 of a band of misfits (the protagonist is a fantasy sports star - that's bonkers), and the more satisfying turn based system rather than the Auto, Auto, Auto~ system of FF13, there is literally no contest.

The only thing that sucks about X is some of the post game grind being attached to awful mini games.

And even despite 13 being such a weak entry, it's still better than 15.
 
I think if you line up both X and XIII and compare them for their strengths and weakness, you will find that X is a better game overall when compared to XIII. Keep in mind, this is only comparing X and XIII and not other FF games.
 

Loz246789

Member
I've been playing the hd version of X recently and have just arrived at
Zanarkand
, and... I'm not super inclined to say that it's infinitely better than XIII so far? There are a few good tracks (To Zanarkand, the battle theme, and path of repentance come to mind), but it's hardly blowing me away most of the time. I'd probably give the edge to XIII in this regard. I'll grant that the enemy design is better, although this is slightly let down by some of these character designs instead. (See: Tidus's outfit in general, Lulu's dress of belts, Seymour's hair, etc.) Also, the level up system is pretty nifty, and is probably my favourite part of the game. I love it when a game gives you some tools, and almost tells you "if you play your cards right you could be obscenely powerful for the mid game. Good luck."

But my main problem with the game is that the combat is kind of boring outside of boss fights, to the point that I kind of *want* XIII's autobattle system? It's super slow paced unless you've got haste cast on everyone, and spoiler alert, the fights don't last long enough to justify this. Every fight boils down to switching in everyone to gain experience, using Wakka on the flying enemies, Lulu on any elemental weaknesses, then just mopping up the rest and healing after the fight. Maybe it gets better later, but I'm a fair few hours in and I have yet to seriously consider any buffs or debuffs for regular fights. And they're so long. And there's so many. And there's not really enough enemy variety for how limited the combat system is. The level up system is the one saving grace of all this. (Bosses are fine because they don't die in a couple hits. Strategy can actually be used there) By the point I'm at in the game, even if the combat gets better, it would still have the XIII problem of getting better many hours in.

Final Fantasy XIII has similar problems, but at least it's quick about it. You stagger enemies, you take advantage of the staggering, they're probably dead. That's most of the regular enemy encounters for the game, but you attack enemies at a reasonable pace, you never have to solve the obvious question of "what spell should I cast on this foe that's weak to fire", and you're never far from the next boss fight/area due to the linearity and lack of random encounters. (There's also a few quality of life things that speeds up this process, like being healed after every battle, and, to look at from another perspective, the lack of random minigames that pad out the runtime. You can also skip cutscenes.) This all helps a lot in preventing monotony, imo.

Is XIII a good game? Probably not. But is X a better executed version of it? I'd argue no, outside of the level up system. (No comment on the story since I'm not done, and that wouldn't be fair. Although I will say I never had an issue understanding the basic concepts of XIII, outside of the admittedly ass ending.)
 
I just await the day the discourse evolves to "FFXIII was just not my style of FF" from "XIII marked the death of the franchise and everyone and their mother knows its a dumpster fire and lol if you think otherwise."

Doesn't have a category for me: I liked FFXIII but have no interest in playing FFXIII-2 or FFXIII-3

Yeah that's my bad. I was mostly looking for those who didn't play XIII-2 because they didn't like XIII and comparing that number to those who did end up playing XIII-2. Still should have included that last option.

Edit: to be fair this thread has been very good at containing less drive by posts than FF usually gets.
 

Bluenoser

Member
I enjoyed both games but they are certainly on the low end of the series for me, down there with VIII & II. The both have major problems with unlikeable casts, bad stories and their very linear design.

Well everything I said is technically debatable. Just my opinion of course.

I forgot to mention the thing I hate most of anything FFXIII does, is that your party is set according to story events until basically the end of the game. I. fucking. hate. that. It's the single worst design decision ever in a FF game, and it makes me feel like I'm just along for the ride, with literally no input or participation in the game.

FF9 did this too, but to a much lesser extent, and you got to customize your team much earlier in the overall story.

I'm on XIII's side in this debate and honestly couldn't even tell you who the main villain of it was.

Wasn't it
Barthandelus? (who was just a Fal cie anyway?)
 
I've been playing the hd version of X recently and have just arrived at
Zanarkand
, and... I'm not super inclined to say that it's infinitely better than XIII so far? There are a few good tracks (To Zanarkand, the battle theme, and path of repentance come to mind), but it's hardly blowing me away most of the time. I'd probably give the edge to XIII in this regard. I'll grant that the enemy design is better, although this is slightly let down by some of these character designs instead. (See: Tidus's outfit in general, Lulu's dress of belts, Seymour's hair, etc.) Also, the level up system is pretty nifty, and is probably my favourite part of the game. I love it when a game gives you some tools, and almost tells you "if you play your cards right you could be obscenely powerful for the mid game. Good luck."

But my main problem with the game is that the combat is kind of boring outside of boss fights, to the point that I kind of *want* XIII's autobattle system? It's super slow paced unless you've got haste cast on everyone, and spoiler alert, the fights don't last long enough to justify this. Every fight boils down to switching in everyone to gain experience, using Wakka on the flying enemies, Lulu on any elemental weaknesses, then just mopping up the rest and healing after the fight. Maybe it gets better later, but I'm a fair few hours in and I have yet to seriously consider any buffs or debuffs for regular fights. And they're so long. And there's so many. And there's not really enough enemy variety for how limited the combat system is. The level up system is the one saving grace of all this. (Bosses are fine because they don't die in a couple hits. Strategy can actually be used there) By the point I'm at in the game, even if the combat gets better, it would still have the XIII problem of getting better many hours in.

Final Fantasy XIII has similar problems, but at least it's quick about it. You stagger enemies, you take advantage of the staggering, they're probably dead. That's most of the regular enemy encounters for the game, but you attack enemies at a reasonable pace, you never have to solve the obvious question of "what spell should I cast on this foe that's weak to fire", and you're never far from the next boss fight/area due to the linearity and lack of random encounters. (There's also a few quality of life things that speeds up this process, like being healed after every battle, and, to look at from another perspective, the lack of random minigames that pad out the runtime. You can also skip cutscenes.) This all helps a lot in preventing monotony, imo.

Is XIII a good game? Probably not. But is X a better executed version of it? I'd argue no, outside of the level up system. (No comment on the story since I'm not done, and that wouldn't be fair. Although I will say I never had an issue understanding the basic concepts of XIII, outside of the admittedly ass ending.)

coming into FF games from the later iterations and working your way backwards is always going to be difficult, i'm guessing you're young?

FF 10 and FF 13 comparing them at release is no contest.

I replayed 10 when the remaster came out and I can say it was a chore to play at times. I am so done with random encounters now AND high encounter rates.

Despite that the game is still infinity better than 13.
 

Kinsei

Banned
I wonder what is everyone opinions on the villains of the two games?

In FFX Seymour has great fights and Sin is a memorable villain.

In FFXIII Barthandelus is a poor villain (although his first fight in chapter 9 is fun), Jihl was wasted, and Rosch is so forgettable that I had to google his name.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
I wonder what is everyone opinions on the villains of the two games?

I remember Seymour. Lady Yunalesca was the first mechanically interesting Final Fantasy boss since FFVIII. The final boss of the game was a great encounter both from a thematic and symbolic perspective.

I don't remember the villain or even any of the bosses from FF13. Does Snow count as a villain because I hated that muthafucker.
 
X decorated its corridors better and gave you more reasons to walk down them. You had a map from the start and Lulu/Yuna a few hours in tell you which roads you're walking down. They also explain why this is the route that's being taken.

One thing I love about X is the amount of side-characters you see come and go as they venture down the same corridors. Dona, Shelinda, Belgremine and the ronsos... it really makes the world feel a lot more full when you have NPCs traversing in a similar fashion. FFXIII didn't give me that. I was alone in a corridor, having heard very little about the next corridor and not really feeling particularly sure as to why I was heading down them.
 
Wasn't it
Barthandelus? (who was just a Fal cie anyway?)
Probably. You encounter him several times and he spouts a bunch of gibberish every time. That's pretty clear main bad guy stuff. The story is such nonsense that it's hard to say for sure though. And his name is too dumb to remember anyway.
 

Loz246789

Member
coming into FF games from the later iterations and working your way backwards is always going to be difficult, i'm guessing you're young?

FF 10 and FF 13 comparing them at release is no contest.

I replayed 10 when the remaster came out and I can say it was a chore to play at times. I am so done with random encounters now AND high encounter rates.

Despite that the game is still infinity better than 13.

I'm 20. I don't have an amazing amount of experience with the mainline final fantasy games (I've played 9, 10, 12, and 13), but I *do* have a lot of experience with the JRPG genre. (SMT, Persona, Trails, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, etc.)

I'd like to think that this is enough experience to say that final fantasy X isn't very good combat wise, due to being slow paced and not very dynamic. (... Wow that sounded kind of sarcastic, I swear I don't mean it to be)

I can totally respect someone's opinion though that X might be better for them. Legitimately, that much voice acting must have been revolutionary at the time of release, and a few awkward npc faces aside, the remaster shows that graphically it's aged rather well. There's things to like about the game, certainly, I just dislike the combat system.
 

flkraven

Member
I'm with OP. X and XIII are structured in almost the exact same way. X has an easier to follow story and probably more memorable characters, but IMO XIII has the superior music and battle system. I personally enjoyed XIII more.
 
XIII will remain the worst mainline FF by a country mile due to its garbage cast. I'm starting to think anyone who thinks FFXIII has great characters probably loves some of the worst animes that have ever come out. Ever.

Weird. On playing XIII, I remember thinking "These feel like real people finally", compared to previous FF games. Like, it was night and day between XIII's cast and like, I-X. Not that I didn't like previous FF characters, but I think XIII's insistences on so much time spent in pairs with lots of back and forth dialogue made me more attached to them and feel more like they were real.

And then FFXV did that even better, with all the banter and inter-party interaction.
 

kromeo

Member
I *do* have a lot of experience with the JRPG genre. (SMT, Persona, Trails, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, etc.)

I'd like to think that this is enough experience to say that final fantasy X isn't very good combat wise, due to being slow paced and not very dynamic. (... Wow that sounded kind of sarcastic, I swear I don't mean it to be)

Trails, Pokemon and Dragon Quest games being well known for their fast paced, dynamic combat
 

Loz246789

Member
Trails, Pokemon and Dragon Quest games being well known for their fast paced, dynamic combat

I never claimed that they were good examples, I said that I've played them. :p
(I actually have a lot of problems with pokemon in particular, but that's another topic altogether)
 

TannerDemoz

Member
I don't get how people can be complimentary about the music for XIII.

There's literally about 3/4 melodies in the game that are just repackaged into different variants.
 

kromeo

Member
I never claimed that they were good examples, I said that I've played them. :p
(I actually have a lot of problems with pokemon in particular, but that's another topic altogether)

Slower combat never bothered me personally, I even enjoy it in IX, but a large part of the reason people liked the combat in X was that it was quicker and snappier than most turn based games before it
 

Dr. Buni

Member
I liked Tidus and Yuna a lot. Tidus was goofy and likable, Yuna was the best deuteragonist. Heck, calling her a deuteragonist isn't even right, at various points in the game, the "protagonist" tags switches between these two and I love that.

I couldn't get myself to like anyone in XIII and I am very much a character-driven player. Also, if I am playing a RPG, I would like to not walk through boring corridors for 2/3 of the game.
 

Ascheroth

Member
I'm 20. I don't have an amazing amount of experience with the mainline final fantasy games (I've played 9, 10, 12, and 13), but I *do* have a lot of experience with the JRPG genre. (SMT, Persona, Trails, Pokemon, Dragon Quest, etc.)

I'd like to think that this is enough experience to say that final fantasy X isn't very good combat wise, due to being slow paced and not very dynamic. (... Wow that sounded kind of sarcastic, I swear I don't mean it to be)

I can totally respect someone's opinion though that X might be better for them. Legitimately, that much voice acting must have been revolutionary at the time of release, and a few awkward npc faces aside, the remaster shows that graphically it's aged rather well. There's things to like about the game, certainly, I just dislike the combat system.
It's been a while since I played X, but I remember liking the combat because it felt quick and snappy and it gave you both reasons to use all your party members as well as made it really quick to swap in whoever you needed without penalties.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
I'm in the camp where X is a forgettable experience both story and gameplay wise. XIII is far better in both departments but hardly something to praise. The thing that does stand out is XIII's combat, which is great by the time the tutorial-section is over (15 hours in).
 
Because the writing and pacing are flawless. The game's narrative progresses at a perfect pace, and the player cares about everything that is happening.
 

Loz246789

Member
Slower combat never bothered me personally, I even enjoy it in IX, but a large part of the reason people liked the combat in X was that it was quicker and snappier than most turn based games before it
You know what, I'll give the game this. I actually really enjoy IX too (... Although I'd guess it's for different reasons to you, judging by our conversation so far), but going to X from a game that had multiple panning shots before each and every encounter must have been a cool thing. (I'm weirdly fond of said panning shots, but it's difficult to sell positively)

But personally, for me, I would have either liked even snappier combat (I would take a graphical downgrade if necessary), or just more to think about in each encounter.

... This is quickly devolving into "what is my ideal JRPG", so I think I'll leave it at that.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
Final Fantasy X is nowhere near my favourite and I'd still have it way way ahead of FFXIII.

Honestly I felt the game had a lot of heart, even though the english dub left a bit to be desired. FFXIII didn't have an ounce of charm in comparison.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Hmmm seems like despite the flak XIII gets, it's easier for newcomers to experience I guess. X could have been a better starter point if it wasn't for the random encounters and maybe the Sphere Grid. The Sphere Grid isn't bad by all means but XIII's is more "accessible".
 

Nerokis

Member
Seeing as I'm low on time, this discussion has been had many times before, and I agree 100% with the me of the past, I'm going to go ahead and pull from a past post:

I agree. There seems to be at least a handful of people on GAF who hold FFXIII's linearity against FFX. Upon experiencing the former, they retroactively label X as the game that lead the series in the wrong direction, because of the superficial similarities they share.

I wouldn't even say linearity is necessarily the core issue with XIII, though. The absence of a world and any meaningful interactivity is what made XIII so suffocating, and not so much the existence of corridors. With X, there were open spaces interwoven with narrow ones, side activities, NPCs scattered about, secrets to discover, cities. I recall at some point backtracking more or less through the entire game, searching every nook and cranny, talking to every NPC, trying to make sure I didn't miss anything interesting or useful. It was linear, definitely, but I still felt like I was a character in a world.

That doesn't apply to XIII. You're so disconnected from everything around you, lead through narrow corridor after narrow corridor, with such shallow interactivity throughout (here, buy some stuff at the save point! look in this corner, there's a chest!), told too much and shown too little.

Someone earlier tried to make the argument that FF fans (or people who don't like XIII/Toriyama specifically?) are simply fickle, but I think their examples were overly simplified (not that their actual point was wrong). What many want in an FF isn't necessarily what XIII gave them, nor is it necessarily an open world along the lines of Skyrim (although that could potentially be cool). It's not a matter of linearity vs. open world, so much as it's a matter of getting back to the series' strengths: something along the lines of an ambitious, cinematic experience fused with a world grand in scope; an epic, varyingly linear adventure, with lots of interactivity and room to explore off the beaten path.

TL;DR: compared to XIII, X had a much grander, more coherent, more connected world design; more varied, better done corridor/level design; adhered to the basic FF template, with charming NPCs populating the world, interesting cities breaking up the pace of combat, secrets and side-quests, etc.; and, in general, had a world infused with interactivity.

XIII's approach had more in common with Call of Duty than FFX.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Why is Final Fantasy X considered much better than Final Fantasy XIII?

Setting and Lore -- FFX built its world 100x better than XIII did, in fact better than most FF games in general. Tidus is thrown into Spira knowing absolutely nothing, and so when you encounter the culture in Spira, Tidus reacts to it in a way similar to how the player might. Also, Yuna is on a pilgrimage, meaning she's visiting pretty much every location IN Spira before she reaches her destination. You have ample time to pick up on concepts, interact with NPCs, play sports, ect. Basically, the story and its plot was clearly designed around its linearity.

In XIII, you start the game knowing absolutely nothing about anything, you learn the events of the conflict entirely through flashback cutscenes and some datalog in the menu, you NEVER interact with locals, you barely interact with your own party members outside of melodrama and cutscenes, the people from Cocoon are trying to kill you, the Fal Cie are trying to kill you, Pulse is trying to kill you, everything in the game hates you. There's nothing to immerse or sympathize with. You LITERALLY do nothing but run down hallways and fight. After 40 hours you get to run down an open field and fight.

Gameplay -- FFX's Sphere Grid is the most free-form leveling system in ANY Final Fantasy game, point blank period. You can level your party members literally any way you like. You can switch party members during battle. There's a shitton of customization potential and the Aeons add a nice alternative to slugging it out, and you can even power up their abilities.

FFXIII's Crystarium could only be made more linear if they just removed a progression system entirely and just gave you EXP points. It's just a pretty graphic for dumping CP. You can't change your party members until the game is damn near over, and you cannot change them during battle. You lose if the leader dies for no reason, and you can't change leaders in battle. You can't increase the strength of your Eidolons, or give them new skills. Strategy in combat basically comes down to choosing the correct paradigms and changing to them as needed, although the depth to this is almost ENTIRELY artificial because for no well-explained reason, you cannot simply switch a single party member to a new role as needed or change leaders to make clutch saves.

Seriously, there's no reason why they wouldn't let you do this. The most artificially difficult aspect of FFX was that you lost the battle if the front row fell, but at least that felt understandable, because even if 1 party member is left, you can switch to another on your turn.

This was made even more stupid when you remember that Final Fantasy XII had:

- Gambit system, which wasn't actually needed, but excluded in XIII when 2 of your party members are ENTIRELY AI controlled
- Full-party control, complete with character swapping
- Full-party wipe required for game over, regardless if the current front line is dead or not. Your entire party actually has to die for the story to end.
 

Mediking

Member
Dude how can you be a Persona 3 fan and a FFXIII fan at the same time AKA good taste/bad taste??!1 Does not compute :p

You're also talking to a guy who loves Mass Effect Andromeda. Heh.

And lemme say again that FFX IS a good game. I dont hate it but I do hate Seymour so... FF13 wins.
 

Cartho

Member
I loved the bosses in X. I also liked Seymour as a villain. He was well built up and when you first battle him, wear him down until.... "Feel my pain, COME ANIMA". Shit got real. Some of the fights were murderously hard to my 12 year old self (fucking seymour flux oh my god) but I remember them being relatively well designed.

I was also one of those weirdos who bloody loved Blitzball and spent fricking ages playing it.
 
It does tho. Combat in that game is fast and timeless.

What doesn't hold up are the mini games at best.

Combat is fine, but ridiculous random encounter rate, awful villain, bad writing, horrendous VA, garish colors, terrible character design, laughable names (Lulu? Wakka? Rikku? Seymour?), etc. I get X is a classic, but the sum of it's parts don't hold up. It is what it is.
 

Nairume

Banned
Combat is fine, but ridiculous random encounter rate, awful villain, bad writing, horrendous VA, garish colors, terrible character design, laughable names (Lulu? Wakka? Rikku? Seymour?), etc. I get X is a classic, but the sum of it's parts don't hold up. It is what it is.
I'll take Lulu, Wakka, and Rikku over Lightning, Snow, Fang, and Hope. Seymore is a goofy name for a weird elf man, yes.

Otherwise, a high encounter rate is more bearable than a game that does on screen encounters really poorly.
 

kromeo

Member
You're also talking to a guy who loves Mass Effect Andromeda. Heh.

And lemme say again that FFX IS a good game. I dont hate it but I do hate Seymour so... FF13 wins.

Seymour was alright apart from the antlers. His motivations were nonsense but no more than most FF villains
 

Mediking

Member
There's alotta annoying sections in FFX too. The cool cgi scene of Tidus crashing down to ruin Yuna and Seymour's wedding is ruined by the realization of the mini boss rush after that scene. If you lose just once... game over.
 

gfxtwin

Member
In regards to gameplay, I agree that FFX is pretty damn linear OP. Replaying both it and FFXII recently made me realize how great the latter is.

The combination of towns, memorable characters (Balthier is dope, one of the best FF characters in the series), the creative beast designs, no random encounters (!!!!), lush and expressive graphics and a feeling of adventure via exploring open terrain makes it the best Final Fantasy since VII and pretty much the direction I hoped it would go in since the NES days. The story could be better I admit, but it's still nice. As anime as it is, it's also Star Wars meets Game of Thrones, so whats not to like?
 
In all honesty, at release I wasn't that biggest fan of X. I didn't hate it but I wasn't crazy about it like I was some of the other entries in the series.

I started playing the remaster earlier this year and was actually enjoying the hell out of it. It's a damn good game, Tidus aside.
 

zenspider

Member
No idea.

All the complaints about XIII I had about X. X prepared me for XIII which had much better combat but a worse story and OST.
 
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