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[Soriku]

First impressions are a huge thing with gamers. If they don't like what they see right off the bat, that image will stick with them no matter HOW many changes a dev makes. In this case, this was the first impression:


These images were ingrained in the minds of many throughout the three years of dev time.

Not to mention, many gamers straight up hate change or what they perceive to be big changes, even when those changes are positive and could influence design decisions in the future. I myself fall victim to this mentality occasionally.

I actually think Dante in that artwork looks good (the cutscene model could be modeled better, particularly the hair). His look and the first trailer look a lot more dark and dirty. It could've been interesting.

Bayonetta, Raiden, Gene, Gideon, Optimus Prime

I think Dante's new design is OK minus the fact that they gave him a really goofy smile...

Anyway I'm playing the DE and loving the combat, especially with Turbo Mode, and the soundtrack. Really fun game. It maybe could've used a couple more enemy types though.

 

[Mass Effect]

If anything it shows that they don't understand writing themselves. Because they're taking a scene that most definitely isn't taking itself seriously as a completely straight faced attempt at being edgy when it's the opposite.

Even disregarding that scene, there are still plenty of others to reference, even if they aren't completely about Dante.

The very obvious one comes to mind. You know the one...

Spoiler

the sniper abortion

ALSO, just because the succubus scene is in jest does not make it any less worthy of criticism. I like to refer to it as meta-edginess. The old games kind of do this too.

 

[Demoskinos]

If anything it shows that they don't understand writing themselves. Because they're taking a scene that most definitely isn't taking itself seriously as a completely straight faced attempt at being edgy when it's the opposite.

Exactly the point was this huge ugly monster gets in his face and starts shit talking him and if I remember right his mother as well. And its Dante standing having fun with it while at the same time standing his ground by verbally sparring with her. As he just wants to keep pissing her off so he can take advantage of her be off guard with her wild flailing attempts to kill him.

 

[Garlador]

Well, hrmm...

I personally think the game was good... but I've NEVER seen a game go out of its way or a developer so adamantly try to insult and infuriate fans of the previous version of the character. They actively were sabotaging their own game and angering the franchise's most loyal fans. That still baffles me.

 

[Warxard]

Would you prefer people bring up the fact that a pregnant woman gets shot in order to kill the unborn child? And then they proceed to shoot her in the head, too?

Ah the classic /v/ argument

 

[nkarafo]

Because people hate change.

Because change = always good.

...right?

When someone goes for the "people hate change" routine to justify themselves, it usually rings hollow. As a matter of fact, going with the whole change = instant quality is not a good leg to stand on. If people didn't like the design, it's not because "people hate change", it's because the design or character didn't appeal to them.

Going for the "people hate change" thing is disingenuous at best.

This.

 

[Warxard]

Well, hrmm...



I personally think the game was good... but I've NEVER seen a game go out of its way or a developer so adamantly try to insult and infuriate fans of the previous version of the character. They actively were sabotaging their own game and angering the franchise's most loyal fans. That still baffles me.

No they weren't.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=193045869 << Read that.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Ah the classic /v/ argument

What?

This is a scene that actually happens in the game. Dismissing it with 'lol /v/' doesn't change that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Blaming a large part of your audience for not understanding a scene in media of any kind is a BS excuse.

It is 100% the responsibility of the creators to get that message across, and the fact that so many people have that issue with that particular scene is a failure on ninja theory's part, not the audience.

They 100% got the message across in that scene. So many people misinterpreting a ton of scenes in the game, especially with the preconceived bias that literally scene in the game is trying to be edgy, (partly due to the marketing team), is pretty ridiculous. That scene is no less over the top or edgy than "flock off feather face."

Even disregarding that scene, there are still plenty of others to reference, even if they aren't completely about Dante.

The very obvious one comes to mind. You know the one...

Spoiler

the sniper abortion

ALSO, just because the succubus scene is in jest does not make it any less worthy of criticism. I like to refer to it as meta-edginess. The old games kind of do this too.

If we're talking about the edginess of Dante, who acted shocked that sniper scene is also taken out of context. The quite clearly sociopathic dude did it. Personally I find that scene no less worse or edgy than Dante literally playing soccer with the fetuses of a demon in DMC4 and then shooting her when she was grieving.

Exactly the point was this huge ugly monster gets in his face and starts shit talking him and if I remember right his mother as well. And its Dante standing having fun with it while at the same time standing his ground by verbally sparring with her. As he just wants to keep pissing her off so he can take advantage of her be off guard with her wild flailing attempts to kill him.

It's quite literally the same format as every DMC scene where Dante does the same, at varying ages no less. An old ancient demon is getting salty because some punk kid is insulting them.

 

[Weiss]

That Fuck You Scene™ - taken out of context since 2013

Then what is the context?

It's just a douchebag and the Slurm Queen swearing at each other. It's not funny, it's not charming, it has no insight into Dante's character.

Seriously, there is exactly one good scene in that game and it's when

Spoiler

Dante looks on helplessly as Kat is about to get arrested and tries to walk her through making herself as harmless as possible, only for the cops to beat the shit out of her anyway, and he just fucking loses it.

No snappy lines, no cursing, the guy's just completely unable to help someone he cares about.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Because of the reveal, he rubbed people the wrong way by being closer to a stereotype people hated.

The damage was done before the game came out.

 

[Neoxon]

Terrible first post.

Original Dante talked and acted cool in a natural way. DmC Dante was an annoying jerk that tried too hard to look and act cool but failed miserably due to Ninja Theory's poor definition of "cool". His face also made him look like a douche.

This. It just came off as Ninja Theory trying too hard.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Like one of the very first lines of dialogue is someone calling him the Son of Sparda and his response is "If you're calling me a son of a bitch, then get in line."

He may not be the worst Dante, or even be all that different from regular Dante, but after years of saying how much better he was going to be, "just as bad" is not a good result.

 

[Brannon]

I'm surprised that more people weren't focused on the gameplay than the look of the character. DMC is known for vicious, fluid, precise, responsive combat, and Ninja Theory's efforts up to that point were...

 

[mnz]

Am I in the dang twilight zone where the heck did all these new dante fans come from?

New improved release on PS4 and Xbox One and sales. I'm guessing a lot of people that were put off at first played it by now.

Then what is the context?

It's just a douchebag and the Slurm Queen swearing at each other. It's not funny, it's not charming, it has no insight into Dante's character.

Seriously, there is exactly one good scene in that game and it's when

Spoiler

Dante looks on helplessly as Kat is about to get arrested and tries to walk her through making herself as harmless as possible, only for the cops to beat the shit out of her anyway, and he just fucking loses it.

No snappy lines, no cursing, the guy's just completely unable to help someone he cares about.

The context is that he's trying to aggravate that boss. It's not the representation of Dante that people make it out to be.

 

[Guess Who]

I highly recommend anyone who wants some insight into what happened with DmC to check out this thread, where an ex-NT game designer (TribladeX) who worked on DmC and DmCE gives some really great info about the development, including why the PR messaging was the clusterfuck it was.

 

[Acquiescence]

Am I in the dang twilight zone where the heck did all these new dante fans come from?

Well the game came out and it was actually really good, sooooo...

 

[Warxard]

I'm surprised that more people weren't focused on the gameplay than the look of the character. DMC is known for vicious, fluid, precise, responsive combat, and Ninja Theory's efforts up to that point were...

Have you played DE

I highly recommend anyone who wants some insight into what happened with DmC to check out this thread, where an ex-NT game designer (TribladeX) who worked on DmC and DmCE gives some really great info about the development, including why the PR messaging was the clusterfuck it was.

People should seriously read this

 

[Dahbomb]

I'm surprised that more people weren't focused on the gameplay than the look of the character. DMC is known for vicious, fluid, precise, responsive combat, and Ninja Theory's efforts up to that point were...

The hate flew once the gameplay was out in public. Especially when they revealed no lock and 30 FPS. These arguments were drawn out by all the "you don't like change" and "it's really about the white hair".

Though they made many changes since then and DmC DE IS a fast, fluid and responsive action game.

 

[Crocodile]

When someone goes for the "people hate change" routine to justify themselves, it usually rings hollow. As a matter of fact, going with the whole change = instant quality is not a good leg to stand on. If people didn't like the design, it's not because "people hate change", it's because the design or character didn't appeal to them.

Going for the "people hate change" thing is disingenuous at best.

This so much. Anyone who goes "people hate change" and mic drops should just be ignored. Not all change is good so if you personally think a change was good and other are wrong to think otherwise, at least argue for your point. Otherwise its clear you're being lazy and more interested in feeling superior than anything else. If you are too busy/tired/lazy to elaborate then just don't post at all.

If anything it shows that they don't understand writing themselves. Because they're taking a scene that most definitely isn't taking itself seriously as a completely straight faced attempt at being edgy when it's the opposite.

After a certain point, if people continually misinterpret the intent of your writing, you may want to evaluate how well you've actually written.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'm surprised that more people weren't focused on the gameplay than the look of the character. DMC is known for vicious, fluid, precise, responsive combat, and Ninja Theory's efforts up to that point were...

People have stated what issues they have with the gameplay, it just usually gets dismissed with arguments of "You just don't like it because it's new."

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Classic Dante all day

 

[Zeta Oni]

They 100% got the message across in that scene. So many people misinterpreting a ton of scenes in the game, especially with the preconceived bias that literally scene in the game is trying to be edgy, (partly due to the marketing team), is pretty ridiculous. That scene is no less over the top or edgy than "flock off feather face."

Which again, falls on ninja theory.

They crafted the mindset people went into their game with, and it resulted in this cluster of misinformation and first impressions dictating the entire experience.



Hope they one day make another extreme action game, but stay the hell away from stuff that never needed to be changed in the first place.

 

[Brannon]

...filled with gratuitous input lag that would absolutely destroy DMC gameplay. Thankfully the game does not suffer NT's prior maladies, and the PC version is ace.

EDIT: was doing an input lag joke there but that blew up

 

[Juraash]

"Fuck you"
"Fuck you"
"Who the fuck are you"
"I'm your prom date you ugly sack of shit"

here's your oscar now dang

I really like the narrative of how people only dislike DmC because "muh white hair", though. Has a whole hell of a lot more to do with it than that.

This pretty much encapsulates why I don't like this incarnation of Dante or this game all that much. And I will say that Dante got better by the end. Even still, it was stiff like this that just soured the whole experience for me.

 

[Burning4]

Ah the classic /v/ argument

Dismissing a point completely without refuting its core idea doesn't make you right.

Shooting an unborn child, demonic or not, while it is still in the womb and then thinking you are a pretty cool guy for doing it sounds really fucking "edgy" to me.

 

[ShinMaruku]

This is by far the best Dante design, so rad.



It is a shame the game it belongs to is what it is

The funny thing is originally it was not supposed to be a dmc game and capcom in their infinite wisdom decided it would and made the team rush it. DMC3 and DMC4 is made by the same team. Hell MVC3 is made by that team.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I think it was if it ain't broke don't fix it thing.

Dante is a pretty iconic character.

Also new Dante had that outdated I'm trying to be too edgy vibe.

Tell that literally every character writer in the industry.


No seriously please tell them.

 

[Meia]

Maybe because they tried to radically change a few established characters in the game instead of making a brand new IP with similar gameplay? Dante wasn't the only one hit by this as people forget Virgil's portrayal too...


Way worse/less fun dialogue in the game, coupled with a rather cheap shot at fans of the franchise with the wig = deserving of a shitty reception.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Which again, falls on ninja theory.

They crafted the mindset people went into their game with, and it resulted in this cluster of misinformation and first impressions dictating the entire experience.

Hope they one day make another extreme action game, but stay the hell away from stuff that never needed to be changed in the first place.

So you think the audience has absolutely no responsibility at all to correctly misinterpret a scene or several scenes in a piece of media and rightfully can take them out of context whenever they want?
"Uh the game takes itself too seriously!!1! Just look at this scene that I completely misinterpret as taking itself too seriously"

 

[Dahbomb]

Dismissing a point completely without refuting its core idea doesn't make you right.

Shooting an unborn child, demonic or not, while it is still in the womb and then thinking you are a pretty cool guy for doing it sounds really fucking "edgy" to me.

Well its a good thing then that it wasn't Dante who did it and was actually Vergil, a villain of the series. Vergil never claimed he was a cool guy for doing it.

 

[Kriken]

People have stated what issues they have with the gameplay, it just usually gets dismissed with arguments of "You just don't like it because it's new."

I feel like I'm in an EA Battlefront thread

 

[Producer]

Dante didnt need a redesign, then with the initial reveal he looked pale and sick, smoking a cig too. Screamed edgy.

I think most would have been able to look past his design but then details of the gameplay were revealed and just made matters worse. Vanilla DmC was really bad. I havent played DE but i know they fixed a ton of issues but the damage has been done.

Now we wait for DMC5

 

[chaobreaker]

Well, hrmm...



I personally think the game was good... but I've NEVER seen a game go out of its way or a developer so adamantly try to insult and infuriate fans of the previous version of the character. They actively were sabotaging their own game and angering the franchise's most loyal fans. That still baffles me.

That presentation was made and circulated weeks after the game came out. People already marked the game as trash and FUCK YOU became a meme long by the time it hapoened.

 

[Warxard]

Dismissing a point completely without refuting its core idea doesn't make you right.

Shooting an unborn child, demonic or not, while it is still in the womb and then thinking you are a pretty cool guy for doing it sounds really fucking "edgy" to me.

If you actually played DmC you'd know that Vergil did that himself and even Dante wasn't cool with the idea? Like at all. It was the turning point behind Vergil becoming evil in the first place.

Not to mention before the fact that you had to fight said fetus in the club level beforehand.

I brought it up as the '/v/ arguments because it's the same fucking criticism morons on /v/ bring up when discussing that scene.

Hopefully ETDP can get off of his Twitter so he can realize that

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Well its a good thing then that it wasn't Dante who did it and was actually Vergil, a villain of the series. Vergil never claimed he was a cool guy for doing it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Vergil not working with Dante against Mundus there?

 

[Dahbomb]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Vergil not working with Dante against Mundus there?

Yeah but Vergil went off script there.

The whole talk about demon abortion is weird to me when in other mediums this has happened a lot already (killing a demonic spawn). In DmC, before that incident you actually faught this demon spawn in a full fledged boss battle.

That whole scene was just framed very strangely. Like am I to believe that one shot would kill that thing when I spent a good 10 minutes previously wailing on it with every weapon I had including Shotguns and giant Axes?

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I legit did a double take when I found out that Delsin was 24 during Second Son.

Get a job, dude. You dress like you're in high school.

I'm generally only ever dressed either like a day laborer or like Johnny Depp. Mr Rogers and laundry day dad looks aren't my thing.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

He looks like a somewhat more human version of a turd.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Even if you remove Dante discussion from the story, it's still a really bad story. I'd actually go as far to say that it is no less cringey than DMC1, just for different reasons.

"The world is your bitch and so am I" is a line that is worse than "I should have been the one to fill your dark soul with light." Mundus having doggy style sex with a demon while looking at pictures of himself is worse than Dante riding a motorcycle up a building. The rifle abortion is worse than any story beat in DMC4. Vergil's turn is worse than any bit with Vergil in any other DMC games.

Both series thought they were being cool and came off stupid, but DmC has so much try-hard edge applied to it that the game not only vacationed in the land of cringe, it bought property and moved in.

Also, man, the twitter part. WHY WAS THAT EVEN THERE.

 

[ShinMaruku]

DmC Dante gave me serious Dove Kut vibes then you had the 30 fps and then the mother fuckers said "The feel of 60" that was when I just said fuck it. Was really gonna try it, then I said, "No"

Worked out pretty well for me, people can want a new DmC they want, but I think the man behind that whole idea is out and looks like a fraud.

Spoiler

Inafoony you dove kut

 

[jett]

The blacklash was a good thing. Made NT changed their horrific original Dante design, and probably made them create something that played closer to the Capcom games.

I wish they would port the DE to PC.

 

[Northeastmonk]

It always kinda sucks when it has to build so organically. The loading screens from DmC with Dante and his mother was a nice touch, but DmC kept having to build upon reasoning and characters were relied upon during the cutscenes. It's an organic DmC in that it flowed very well. Ninja Theory does well at being organic. Enslaved was fluid and so was Heavinly Sword.

I just miss the older style where it didn't need to take time to transfer through limbo or an area that wasn't action. If you skip every single cutscene in DmC you're still forced to walk in Limbo and pull down walls. To me, it's one of my least favorite parts of DmC. I'd like more of a cryptic and demonic world than enemies popping and appearing through Limbo. It's a great concept don't get me wrong. The stages where Dante was given his abilities could have been something larger than they were. Dante sorta did what he had to do and he was just along for the ride.

 

[Guess Who]

"The world is your bitch and so am I" is a line that is worse than "I should have been the one to fill your dark soul with light."

I noticed they actually changed that line in the DE, haha. They also got rid of Vergil's fedora.

 

[Curufinwe]

Because people hate change.

No, they hate horrible changes, and turning Dante into a angry jerk who thought saying fuck all the time was cool was beyond horrible.

DmC was one of the worst written games of last gen and the poor sales rightly doomed Ninja Theory to C-tier developer status.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Feanor has spoken.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

If you actually played DmC you'd know that Vergil did that himself and even Dante wasn't cool with the idea? Like at all. It was the turning point behind Vergil becoming evil in the first place.

Not to mention before the fact that you had to fight said fetus in the club level beforehand.

I brought it up as the '/v/ arguments because it's the same fucking criticism morons on /v/ bring up when discussing that scene.

Hopefully ETDP can get off of his Twitter so he can realize that

You didn't just "bring up" /v/ arguments, you completely dismissed it under that pretense.

I don't care what "morons on /v/" use as criticism, it's still bad fucking writing to shoot a fetus then the pregnant mother.

Having a pre-established threat from said fetus doesn't make it any less fucked up or shitty.

It was an awful plot point and they shouldn't have touched it. Ninja Theory of all companies wasn't going to make that work, "not in a million years ".

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I used to think DmC Dante was the series' Shadow the Hedgehog, but that is honestly laying too much blame at his feet. He is in line with the rest of the game.

DmC is the series' Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

[Dahbomb]

Even if you remove Dante discussion from the story, it's still a really bad story. I'd actually go as far to say that it is no less cringey than DMC1, just for different reasons.

"The world is your bitch and so am I" is a line that is worse than "I should have been the one to fill your dark soul with light." Mundus having doggy style sex with a demon while looking at pictures of himself is worse than Dante riding a motorcycle up a building. The rifle abortion is worse than any story beat in DMC4. Vergil's turn is worse than any bit with Vergil in any other DMC games.

Both series thought they were being cool and came off stupid, but DmC has so much try-hard edge applied to it that the game not only vacationed in the land of cringe, it bought property and moved in.

Also, man, the twitter part. WHY WAS THAT EVEN THERE.

Worst plot point was the demon father abuse/rape of Kat because of how badly it was written and how it tried to be manipulative.

And that was certainly not meant to be taken tongue in cheek and if it was then well... I have no words.

 

[Warxard]

No, they hate horrible changes, and turning Dante into a angry jerk who thought saying fuck all the time was cool was beyond horrible.

DmC was one of the worst written games of last gen and the poor sales rightly doomed Ninja Theory to C-tier developer status.

Plenty of games sell like ass, doesn't make the dev less than capable

You didn't just "bring up" /v/ arguments, you completely dismissed it under that pretense.

I don't care what "morons on /v/" use as criticism, it's still bad fucking writing to shoot a fetus then the pregnant mother.

Having a pre-established threat from said fetus doesn't make it any less fucked up or shitty.

lmao

Baby ripping from mother's stomach to fight as a main boss? yeah sure okay

Shooting that baby in the gut even though that baby could've probably blocked that shit? bad writing