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Wii U Virtual Console Details

Cool, I can play GBA games that I passed on because I don't buy handhelds. SWEET. All that's missing now is DS Virtual Console and I'm set to go.



Seems like it's temporarily out of the picture. But given how utterly small the N64 selection was in the first place, I'm not surprised they're focusing on the NES and SNES library first.





They did. It's called Wii Mode. And nothing's stopping someone from not upgrading.



They do. Wii Remotes, which are required for any multiplayer game, allow you to play these games with controllers meant to be used with the system.

Comparing this to the PS3's use of "respective controllers" is hilarious when you consider that the PlayStation controller essentially hasn't changed. AT ALL.

And off-TV play is easy to implement in games that aren't already a finished product. But you can't just flip a bloody switch and expect perfect compatibility, there IS work involved. And much like off-TV play likely has to be tweaked for each game that implements it at the raw code level, so too would the emulators that are piping an emulated product to another screen wirelessly.



The day that Sony implements a glitch-free emulation solution, then we have a right to criticize Nintendo's approach. Until then, it's a choice for the sake of usability over ease of implementation. From a user standpoint, it surprises me that you're railing so hard against the former and not the latter, since only the former serves benefit to you as a consumer.
no one is saying there isn't work, but the work done is not worth the price of admission and it should be offered free of charge. They have to do a shit ton more work for system updates. Would you be willing to pay 1-1.50 per system update? I'd be less upset if this was a 2 dollar one time fee for all owned games, but on a per game basis this is bullshit.
 

Hattori

Banned
I get why people are mad about the $1 to update but to play devil's advocate, no is forcing you to update. The VC games you have are perfectly playable in Wii Mode. I think the $1 charge, in my opinion, is a very small amount to pay to enjoy save states, miiverse integration, and customizable controls.
 

Terrell

Member
no one is saying there isn't work, but the work done is not worth the price of admission and it should be offered free of charge. They have to do a shit ton more work for system updates. Would you be willing to pay 1-1.50 per system update? I'd be less upset if this was a 2 dollar one time fee for all owned games, but on a per game basis this is bullshit.

We don't know how much work is involved. You're taking a completed product and making it do things it was never designed to do (like play flawlessly while streaming the video wirelessly to another device without input lag). For all we know, they're prepping VC titles to be compatible across WiiU AND 3DS in a single software package.

And a $300-350 hardware purchase is a bit different than a $5 software purchase. Yes, more work is involved in a system update, but a refusal to code them exposes manufacturers to loopholes in their own warranty agreements, as a software glitch that they refuse to fix in a certain timeframe would be deemed a hardware defect in certain world jurisdictions, so the cost of making those updates is amortized into hardware production expenses.
 

DJ88

Member
Man, thankfully there are still people like you Terrell that are capable of thinking rationally. I really don't know what's up with GAF these days. I mean it's always had its share of the "everything sucks" crowd, but it's just ridiculous now.

Basically, everything sucks, everything is bullshit, everything needs to have more, it all has to cost less, and it all has to be here faster.
 
We don't know how much work is involved. You're taking a completed product and making it do things it was never designed to do (like play flawlessly while streaming the video wirelessly to another device without input lag). For all we know, they're prepping VC titles to be compatible across WiiU AND 3DS in a single software package.

And a $300-350 hardware purchase is a bit different than a $5 software purchase. Yes, more work is involved in a system update, but a refusal to code them exposes manufacturers to loopholes in their own warranty agreements, as a software glitch that they refuse to fix in a certain timeframe would be deemed a hardware defect in certain world jurisdictions, so the cost of making those updates is amortized into hardware production expenses.
I know that save states don't take a shit ton if work. And playing off the Wii tablet is probably hardware anyways. They probably have a copy paste code that allows this shit to work. And you are bullshiting on the firmware updates thing. They add new features all the time that don't matter to the licensing agreements. Would you pay for these updates? If you would. I just don't know what to say.
 
Man, thankfully there are still people like you Terrell that are capable of thinking rationally. I really don't know what's up with GAF these days. I mean it's always had its share of the "everything sucks" crowd, but it's just ridiculous now.

Basically, everything sucks, everything is bullshit, everything needs to have more, it all has to cost less, and it all has to be here faster.

Well that's just people in general. Doesn't make them less irrational though.
 

Terrell

Member
I know that save states don't take a shit ton if work.

It's not the only feature you're paying for.

And playing off the Wii tablet is probably hardware anyways. They probably have a copy paste code that allows this shit to work.

No, it isn't, and no, there isn't.

And you are bullshiting on the firmware updates thing. They add new features all the time that don't matter to the licensing agreements. Would you pay for these updates? If you would. I just don't know what to say.
They add them to sell more hardware units. New features means new sales. So as I said before, along with bug fixes and OS corrections, the costs to make system updates is amortized into production costs of a $300-350 hardware package. Such work is therefore not relevant to the discussion of a paid upgrade on an optional software unit.
 

Johnny

Member
They add them to sell more hardware units. New features means new sales. So as I said before, along with bug fixes and OS corrections, the costs to make system updates is amortized into production costs of a $300-350 hardware package. Such work is therefore not relevant to the discussion of a paid upgrade on an optional software unit.
It's perfectly relevant. Awarding people new Wii U-specific features for their previously purchased VC titles, free of charge, would certainly entice people to purchase a Wii U, just as any other OS feature would. Factor the cost into the system price, people will accept it more readily that way.
 

Terrell

Member
It's perfectly relevant. Awarding people new Wii U-specific features for their previously purchased VC titles, free of charge, would certainly entice people to purchase a Wii U, just as any other OS feature would. Factor the cost into the system price, people will accept it more readily that way.

Games entice people to buy consoles, too, should those be free, as well?

The line is very clearly drawn: fiddle with the OS to add value to a new purchase and extend value to existing purchasers while fixing bugs that are required to remove to prevent buyer's remorse related legal complications. Optional software remains just that: OPTIONAL. As such, those costs are not something that any business can typically roll into a production expense on hardware.

The VC back catalog contains 600+ titles, each with their own re-coding and testing requirements. The OS is one piece of software, on that, once again, is mandatory to maintain, anyways.
 

Eusis

Member
I actually imagine it's really quick and easy for 99% of the NES/SNES games as it must be easy to make an emulator that works great by default with only a bit of tweaking on special problem titles, but I suppose that's still enough effort for them to want $1 or $1.50.

And I mentioned this earlier, but it may well be a necessary evil to get third parties to jump onboard and make their stuff available. Maybe their contracts were only for Wii with things needing to be done over for Wii U while Sony was more forward thinking (or just made it very easy to deal with), but if they need to go through everything again a guaranteed extra bit of money from people who already bought the games may well sweeten the deal for them. I'd rather just be able to play SE games at all on the Wii U than get them natively working for free after buying them on the original VC (though so far I only did this with FF1 and 2SNES, I'll wait to see if the other SNES titles are made compatible before grabbing).
 

Johnny

Member
Games entice people to buy consoles, too, should those be free, as well?
No one's demanding free VC games, these games have already been purchased. People are asking for free upgrades to their already purchased software that take advantage of the new hardware they've purchased. Like Sony has done with PS1 titles.

The line is very clearly drawn: fiddle with the OS to add value to a new purchase and extend value to existing purchasers while fixing bugs that are required to remove to prevent buyer's remorse related legal complications. Optional software remains just that: OPTIONAL. As such, those costs are not something that any business can typically roll into a production expense on hardware.

The VC back catalog contains 600+ titles, each with their own re-coding and testing requirements. The OS is one piece of software, on that, once again, is mandatory to maintain, anyways.
The software is only optional because Nintendo chooses to make it optional as a means to nickel-and-dime their customers. They could just as easily provide these enhancements "free of charge" and work the development costs into the price of hardware and future software sales.

This is simply a case of Nintendo hedging their bets on this strategy proving more profitable in the end, which is understandable, they're a business after all. It personally cheapens the brand in my eyes however.
 

jimi_dini

Member
And playing off the Wii tablet is probably hardware anyways. They probably have a copy paste code that allows this shit to work.

No, it isn't, and no, there isn't.

That's factually wrong.

http://mynintendonews.com/2011/09/2...darksiders-2-running-on-the-wii-u-controller/

“Our one and only goal once we got the Wii U hardware was to get Darksiders II running on it. We didn’t even have running the game on the touch screen on our ‘to do’ list. but once we got it running, we just fooled around with getting it on the touch screen as a lark. It took all of five minutes and two lines of code, and boom! – there was the entire game running on the controller. Amazing.”

2 lines of code. 2 LINES OF CODE.
 
Well, we don't know for sure but they most likely have. More titles, more platforms and generally higher pricepoints, plus Wii VC got off to an insane start (over 10m games sold it's first year). Do you have any reason to believe otherwise?

Sony has a shitload of classics on the store and they actually sell.
 

Thank you for posting that. I was reading his nonsense prior to that and laughing at his lack of knowledge on the topic. Standard features of the console are going to be built right into the development kit, so any developer can easily implement it into their game. If they made it difficult most developers wouldn't bother.
 

Eric C

Member
That's factually wrong.

http://mynintendonews.com/2011/09/2...darksiders-2-running-on-the-wii-u-controller/
“Our one and only goal once we got the Wii U hardware was to get Darksiders II running on it. We didn’t even have running the game on the touch screen on our ‘to do’ list. but once we got it running, we just fooled around with getting it on the touch screen as a lark. It took all of five minutes and two lines of code, and boom! – there was the entire game running on the controller. Amazing.”

2 lines of code. 2 LINES OF CODE.
Then why are the devs of "The Cave" posting on GAF saying this?

As our first game on Wii U (on any Nintendo platform for that matter), the bulk of our effort had to be spent ensuring that the engine was ported over well and that the game made the transition safely. We were also shipping on more platforms than we've ever shipped on at once before, and there just wasn't the time and bandwidth to support off-TV mode, unfortunately. That mode requires the dev to implement it entirely (as opposed to simply being handled by the hardware), and it just wasn't feasible with the resources we had.
 
Sony has a shitload of classics on the store and they actually sell.
There's still less PSN Classics/Game Archives than there are Virtual Console games. VC games are also generally more expensive, and the best selling VC games are mostly 1st party, meaning an even higher revenue take.

What are you basing "actually sell" on btw? Have some figures we can take a peek at?
 

Margalis

Banned
It's probably not literally 2 lines of code to get in running on pad.

You probably have to prepare a buffer with the image data you want to send over. So at least need to copy your normal output buffer to that buffer. Then you also need some UI or gesture recognition if you want people to be able to switch on the fly. You might also need some code to handle the case where they never turn the TV on in the first case so the game just starts running on the pad.

I don't know exactly how it works but I'm sure getting it working in a shippable way requires more than 2 lines and 5 minutes.

In game development getting something mostly working is usually about 2% of the process, and the other 98% is getting it working 100% and polished.
 

Eusis

Member
Then why are the devs of "The Cave" posting on GAF saying this?
We HAVE heard a lot of bullshit from Vigil as I recall, so I'd treat anything from them with a grain of salt. Still, I do think once you figure out how to get it to work on one NES/SNES game you have it nailed for the rest of them. It's not like they're rebuilding these games from scratch, just taking an emulator and doing some tweaks if necessary to make a game run well. There's still making that digital manual though.
 
They "allow" it because IT'S THE SAME FUCKING GAME. It's the same disc image. It's literally the same file stored on the same server.

If you buy FFVII through the vita, you are not buying a vita version of the game. You are buying the ps1 version of FFVII. If you buy FFVII through a psp, you are not buying a psp version of the game. You are buying the ps1 version of FFVII. If you buy FVII through a ps3, you are not buying a ps3 version of the game. You are buying the ps1 version of FFVII. If you buy SMB through a wii u, you are not buying a wii u version of SMB. You are buying the NES version of SMB.

But you're not. You're buying a license to play an emulated version of the NES SMB for the life of the console you downloaded it to.

Don't get me wrong, I would PREFER to not have to pay...I'm not Scrooge McDuck, swimming in cash over here...but I can't fault Nintendo for charging a little for the added features/convenience of Wii U versions of VC games.

Tell me, do you think you'll be able to play that "same file stored on the same server" on every Sony system from here on out?
 
Eh, Sony's emulator code is so general that they might haha. Unfortunately, that's not necessarily a good thing... As someone who's had several games crash on me before figuring out what was causing it, it really isn't a definite good thing.
 
There are 742 classics/game archives on the japanese psn. 645 vc games on the japanese wii eshop.
+132 3DS and 1 Wii U VC titles for a grand total of 778 Japan VC games. In other regions there's a greater disparity though, in the US it's 490 VC to 374 PSNC for example.
 

DGRE

Banned
Everyone holding up Sony as the bastion of BC is giving me a good laugh. The company that actually REMOVED BC from their console would never nickel and dime you?

Okay.

At least Nintendo has implemented fully functional BC for hardware (portable and home) for two generations.

Oh and how are your UMDs working on your Vita?
 

Pociask

Member
But you're not. You're buying a license to play an emulated version of the NES SMB for the life of the console you downloaded it to.

Don't get me wrong, I would PREFER to not have to pay...I'm not Scrooge McDuck, swimming in cash over here...but I can't fault Nintendo for charging a little for the added features/convenience of Wii U versions of VC games.

Tell me, do you think you'll be able to play that "same file stored on the same server" on every Sony system from here on out?

You have a very definite idea of what you're buying, considering what the shop interface on the Wii Virtual Console looks like. Where was that fine print about licenses for the life of the console - in between the coins that Mario scooped up? Was that one of the rare downloading screens?
 

Terrell

Member
You have a very definite idea of what you're buying, considering what the shop interface on the Wii Virtual Console looks like. Where was that fine print about licenses for the life of the console - in between the coins that Mario scooped up? Was that one of the rare downloading screens?
Likely in the Wii Shop Channel terms of use that none of us actually read. Just like every other online software store.

No one's demanding free VC games, these games have already been purchased. People are asking for free upgrades to their already purchased software that take advantage of the new hardware they've purchased. Like Sony has done with PS1 titles.
Considering the broken compatibility issues with a fair amount of titles, ill pay the dollar to not put up with that, thanks.

And the expectation of a free upgrade is like expecting a free Blu-Ray disc cuz you bought the DVD.

LOLno.
 

HYDE

Banned
Once the upgrade comes out and I download my Virtual console titles and then pay 1-2$ to upgrade them, will I be able to play them on my tv using the Wii U Pro controller?
 

Eric C

Member
Once the upgrade comes out and I download my Virtual console titles and then pay 1-2$ to upgrade them, will I be able to play them on my tv using the Wii U Pro controller?

yes

Balloon Fight supports:

GamePad
Wiimote
Wiimote w/Classic Controller
Pro Controller
 

btkadams

Member
Likely in the Wii Shop Channel terms of use that none of us actually read. Just like every other online software store.


Considering the broken compatibility issues with a fair amount of titles, ill pay the dollar to not put up with that, thanks.

And the expectation of a free upgrade is like expecting a free Blu-Ray disc cuz you bought the DVD.


LOLno.

why are people making this comparison? the game is still the same game. it's not an hd upgrade like a bluray would be in comparison to dvd. it is the same rom.
 
Once the upgrade comes out and I download my Virtual console titles and then pay 1-2$ to upgrade them, will I be able to play them on my tv using the Wii U Pro controller?
Yes. Wii U versions add:

-Off-TV Play
-Save States
-Miiverse Support
-Button Configuration
-Wii Pro Controller Support

Which is why I sort of don't mind the upgrade fee too much. You're getting a lot more conveniences/options versus Wii, it's less just running the same thing natively (which Wii U can do anyway in Wii mode if you opt not to upgrade).
 
Yes. Wii U versions add:

-Off-TV Play
-Save States
-Miiverse Support
-Button Configuration
-Wii Pro Controller Support

Which is why I sort of don't mind the upgrade fee too much. You're getting a lot more conveniences/options versus Wii, it's less just running the same thing natively (which Wii U can do anyway in Wii mode if you opt not to upgrade).


How does it cost nintendo more to do that for a snes game than a nes game?
 

Javier

Member
Yes. Wii U versions add:

-Off-TV Play
-Save States
-Miiverse Support
-Button Configuration
-Wii Pro Controller Support

Which is why I sort of don't mind the upgrade fee too much. You're getting a lot more conveniences/options versus Wii, it's less just running the same thing natively (which Wii U can do anyway in Wii mode if you opt not to upgrade).
In addition, it's very likely you will get 10 Club Nintendo coins for each game you upgrade, since the Wii U version counts as a different game than the Wii version for the sake of CN registration.
 

Drago

Member
How does it cost nintendo more to do that for a snes game than a nes game?
This is the most baffling thing.

I don't really mind the upgrade price (it's pretty insignificant and the upgrade ties it to an account, which hopefully means no more upgrade prices after this) but I see no reason why SNES has to be priced higher for the exact same upgrade.
 

Glass Joe

Member
Basically people who dont have a Wii U are complaing? Is that what you are trying to say?

I'm not jumping to that conclusion directly. It could be that Wii owners on GAF see this as a deterrent to buy a U, and current U owners have just accepted it?

But, for example, that 50hz PAL thing is an explosive topic on Miiverse. The upgrade fee isn't. It is odd, since I typically use GAF as a barometer.
 

Eusis

Member
LOLno? the producer of Darksiders 2 is lying? Are you a Wii U developer?



I guess they should ask Vigil Games. He even writes that it's their first game on any Nintendo console whatsoever. Maybe they overlooked some API.
I seem to recall there was a lot of stuff Vigil said that simply wasn't true in the end. Plus while this goes the opposite of how I expect, that WAS just as the Wii U was announced, versus the Cave being a game that came out within the last week. It's not implausible that for some reason they made it easy really early on, but changed that further in (maybe they originally tied up some of the system just for the second screen, only to decide letting developers choose how to use it was better?)
 

Somnid

Member
I'm not jumping to that conclusion directly. It could be that Wii owners on GAF see this as a deterrent to buy a U, and current U owners have just accepted it?

But, for example, that 50hz PAL thing is an explosive topic on Miiverse. The upgrade fee isn't. It is odd, since I typically use GAF as a barometer.

It's not implemented yet nor is there a place in which to bitch about it.
 

btkadams

Member
I'm not jumping to that conclusion directly. It could be that Wii owners on GAF see this as a deterrent to buy a U, and current U owners have just accepted it?

But, for example, that 50hz PAL thing is an explosive topic on Miiverse. The upgrade fee isn't. It is odd, since I typically use GAF as a barometer.

well, let me say that i have been a wii u owner since launch and find the charging of previous buyers to be complete bs.
 

Fox Mulder

Member
why are people making this comparison? the game is still the same game. it's not an hd upgrade like a bluray would be in comparison to dvd. it is the same rom.

they added features specific to the console. Would be great if it were done for free, but it wasn't. The games are still 100% free to transfer and play on your wiiu in wii mode.
 

Terrell

Member
why are people making this comparison? the game is still the same game. it's not an hd upgrade like a bluray would be in comparison to dvd. it is the same rom.
And a Blu-Ray is the same movie but with less resolution down-sampling from the remaster they already had to do for the DVD release and takes the same amount of work to produce. In fact, Blu-Ray production is likely even less time-intensive by comparison to our topic of conversation.
 
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