Rock and Cena were pushed early and fans absolutely shitted on it and rejected it. Vince killed their push. So then Rock reinvited himself as The Rock and Cena then started the Dr of Thugonomics bit. At that point they started to get naturally over with fans and after that Vince started to push them again. Roman hasn't really had that natural organic development (yet), and that's partially why I think they pushed Roman too soon
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WrestleMania 33 Week |OT| The Ride Never Ends.
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
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If AJ does an open challenge and Nakamura comes out, I will lose my shit.
Uh. Rocky actually turned heel.
Reigns is not a heel. Commentary does not act like Reigns is a heel.
And Reigns can't pull off what Cena did.
It's a matter of when, not if at this point. Tonight, or after the "shake up."
AJ comes out, talks shit on Shane and everyone. Shane comes out and says you're the best, so we got someone on your level. Violins play. All is good. I was hoping this would have happened at WM, but I'll take it when I can. Hopefully it's not a Nak unveil and Styles interrupts type thing. My way or gtfo.
I just don't see what you see in Reigns, There's a difference between Cena, The Rock and Reigns. Two have talent and earned their spot, The third is Reigns who is one of the most boring wrestlers in the last decade.
Cena was pushed and pushed but he still proved his worth, I have yet to see anything that will show Reigns has the ability to do that not to mention how good Cena and The Rock are on the Mic.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I still don't get you. Roman Reigns retired the Undertaker. That alone is the most heelish thing anybody in the company can do. Do you want Roman to come out to the ring, grab a mic and say "i'm evil"? Walk me through this here.
You call me delusional, then acquiese that the only difference between the three is "talent". Makes sense.
Both Rock and Cena were green as hell when they started getting their push.
This would be completely ignoring the weekly commentary and video packages that all present Roman as 100 percent face.
The show doesn't present him as a heel. Period. No matter how heelish he is actually coming off. Cena has had the same issue in the past, but this has been worse.
When he became THE GUY? No, didn't people hate The Rock. Was he hated earlier as Rocky Mavia, white meat midcard baby face? Absolutely, but his position at that time wasn't anywhere near what it became nor what Roman's is now.
And yes, people soured on Cena eventually, which was my whole point. People didn't dislike him because he was "the guy." People started to dislike him because his character became boring as shit.
The point is, people want to be entertained. People will accept someone being pushed by the company as long as they are entertaining. As soon as that stops, they shift. I'll agree that the problem in every case - Cena, Reigns, Rocky Mavia, hell even going all the way to Lex Luger - is how they're booked and how their characters are portrayed. But acting like the reaction is purely because Vince likes someone is bs; every "guy" is Vince's chosen one to some degree because he books the show. Fans will go with it as long as they're entertained.
By and large, people are saying they don't find Reigns entertaining.
Shawn Michaels retird Ric Flair. The Undertaker retired Shawn Michaels.
They didn't get booed nor was it seen as heelish.
That's the problem. He's not a heel. He's a face. He's a square peg being rammed into a round hole. The commentary team, who are supposed to colour these characters for the audience, treat him like a face. He's the kids' hero sent in to overcome the odds.
If he turned heel, and I mean actually turned heel, as in he was consistently booked against faces, dropped the cheesy taunts and did bad stuff, it would add a genuinely effective edge to his character.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I wish the Taker match had been better, but the way the whole thing has played out? I really liked it.
Like, all that booing last night? His reaction? Dope.
It's worth noting (thanks Thirty Twenty Ten) that our current president's last Wrestlemania appearance was 10 years ago this week at Wrestlemania 23..
DeaconKnowledge
Member
So you guys beef is that WWE is packaging him as a face? No matter what heelish things he does, no matter what you see, the WWE's packages determine what he is?
Okay..
It's not real. So yeah.
Retiring the Undertaker isn't a heelish act in itself. And him getting booed isn't an indication that he's a heel. So...yes?
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Can't agree on this. His mic work and promos have been great throughout the Taker buildup.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Roman is absolutely overpushed, but I have to agree with banned member strobogo that Rollins's push is even more obnoxious, given how bad he sucks at telling stories in his matches and how much more often he no-sells, such as when he gets his leg worked for an entire match and still does flippy shit and buckle bombs and such.
Rollins face push is annoying because his face turn was entirely because he was whining that he stopped getting preferential treatment from Stephanie. Like, how the fuck is that a face turn?
This is why, more than anyone, Rollins needs to go to Smackdown. Get away from the Authority and start fresh.
Agreed.
never watch new japan or else you might die of stroke
Yeah, Rollins as a face needs a fresh start. Given that Rollins inadvertently took Stephanie out of power at WrestleMania it would make sense for Shane to want him on Smackdown too.
If he is truly a heel, then his role within the week to week narrative should reflect that. He should come out and talk shit about the crowd, beat up faces, have commentary about how disgusting his actions are, get embarrassed and ultimately defeated by the good guys.
That doesn't happen with Reigns. He's called a heel by PR, but everything about how he's presented most of the time on the actual show suggests he's still a face.
Wrestling is, by and large, pretty simple. Good guys vs bad guys. I can appreciate the idea behind the whole "meta heel" thing they're apparently going for. It's a legitimately innovative idea, trying to emulate the "decide for yourself" feel of other sports.
The problem is so much of the audience is saying they don't want that. They want simple, good vs bad narratives. At least, they want that in this instance, anyway. They want Reigns to be a traditional heel because they think he'd be more entertaining that way.
WWE is trying to play the middle when it's really not necessary. It's not even like they don't have other potentially money making baby faces, so they need to cling to Reigns as a face cause otherwise, sales would tank. They still got Rollins, Ambrose, The New Day, Finn Balor, Styles, etc. Even Cena tells us every week he isn't gone yet.
Again, if this is truly the direction WWE wants, alright. Personally, I don't care too much about Reigns either way beyond finding debates about him fun. Both Raw and Smackdown have plenty of other cats and dolls for me to get invested in. But, if I go beyond myself and look at the whole picture, I do question the worth of the "any reaction is fine" logic. It can't be good in the long run, when your audience is dwindling, to have this much of your fanbase against the guy you're pushing as the main character of the show.
What a load of revisionist crap.
Rocky Maivia debuted at the end of 1996, and was greatly hated by soon into 1997, the "DIE ROCKY DIE" period you mention. He was heel before the end of the year, and he was "The Rock" Rocky Maivia in the Nation of Domination. He completely turned himself around throughout 1998 and was really popular by late in the year, before WWF turned him back heel in a swerve. But he was back face by mid 1999 and quickly the top star.
If he was pushed like Roman he would still be babyface Rocky Maivia in late 1999.
Now Cena
What is this nonsense? It doesn't resemble any version of Cena's career. Cena's career path is nothing like Roman's.
Cena debuted as a low card vanilla guy, and did little of note to the point that WWE considered releasing him, before Stephanie liked him doing the Vanilla Ice impression and they made it his gimmick. He was around for a while as a heel rapper and then he started to get hugely over with his insulting raps, and turned face with that. Look at his reaction at MSG at WM 20, a New York crowd of adults go nuts for him.
A year later he got slotted into the top spot and WWE pushed him as a super face and toned down his attitude and edginess, and that's when the crowds started to turn on him as he got very corny and repetitive, going over fan favorites like Jericho, Christian and Angle, and WWE making him into a kid friendly superhero sealed the deal.
But Cena never got that push Reigns is getting. He got over on his own and they pushed him based on that. WWE fucked it up by making him Super Cena.
They chose Reigns to be their top guy before he'd even debuted. They started with the conclusion and are working backwards, and refusing to entertain the idea that their conclusion was wrong.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's weird that you guys keep telling us what the fans really want as if you can speak for all of us. Speak for yourself, he sells the most merch, and I know more Roman fans IRL than Roman haters. Consider there's an audience that knows better about what it wants more.
Rock and Cena have something Reigns does not, mic skills. That is a fundamental difference. Rock and Cena got over based on their promos, in fact the exact same way for both, they had long and funny put downs of their opponents.
One anecdote with a group of friends versus majority of arenas every week.
Yeah. I know who I'd believe.
I don't see a problem with what you highlighted there. There is a significant portion of the audience that absolutely hate the way Roman is presented and booked.
No. Cena does. By a large margin.
You are also offering completely anecdotal evidence. Here in NYC I've only met one guy that was a big Roman Reigns fan.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
You guys keep pointing out how different Reigns is from Rock and Cena, yet you want him to follow the exact same career path.
Maybe its time to admit that whatever this is with Roman, its new, and weird, its intense and we are all wrapped up in it, and thats half the fun.
Maybe its time to admit that whatever this is with Roman, its new, and weird, its intense and we are all wrapped up in it, and thats half the fun.
They're pointing it out because it's a clear path to getting Roman to be an actually good character.
The current career path he's on isn't exactly working given it's having no positive impact on the company or the product.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
To be fair, the latter is almost entirely a subset of the former.
His current career path isn't working. People suggest a change.
We're trying to give examples of how to actually​turn Reigns into a legitimate top face and not this "We really want him to be the top face but if you're booing him we'll take it because it's a reaction" nonsense.
Reigns will never get the majority on his side unless WWE lets him turn heel and then turn face down the line.
Flying Toaster
Member
All the Roman haters in my wrestling group want to see Roman turn heel. At this point I do not see him doing that as helping any. Do people really think that will help?
Okay, wait, hold up...
If you watched The Shield from start to break-up, and didn't think Roman was naturally over, I don't know what to tell you. Because he was. It was only wrestling fans thinking they had to choose between Reigns and Bryan that fucked him over permanently. Which still cracks me up, because you didn't have to choose between them at all.
We're citing examples of how two previous top babyfaces got over organically, as opposed to whatever the fuck Vince is doing with Reigns.
Yes. It's worked well in the past. It would also give Reigns a nice edge to his character, and turn the X-Pac "Go Away" heat into legitimate heel heat, which can only be a good thing.
Sorry, I meant naturally over as a singles wrestler. No question that he was over with The Shield.
It wasn't them thinking they had to choose between Reigns and Bryan. It was that Roman was getting the big Rumble/WrestleMania push at a time when most people thought it should have been Bryan getting that push. Bryan winning the Rumble and going on to face Brock at WM31 for the title he never lost was fucking money. Instead Vince pretty much made the exact same mistake he made at the Royal Rumble the year before with Batista.
I spoke for myself later in the post when I said I don't care much about him either way. The sentence you bolded is referring to the shit loads of people who do care, and hate him. I didn't even say everyone hated him, either; the phrase "so much of the audience" is just talking about the very vocal amount of people who do.
I don't care one way or another if you like Roman Reigns. Please, it's your perogative. I'm legitimately happy you enjoy the guy. But you aren't the only person in the audience, anymore than I am. There's no way you could have watched Raw last night and not seen just how much people hate Roman Reigns. Not all people, but certainly not enough to be ignored.
Like, come on, dude. You're smart enough to comprehend what I wrote. Stop trying so hard to prove you're so much more enlightened than the rest of us. It's coming back around to you just acting really obtuse, and it's not helping the conversation.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Yeah but WWE were entirely rational not to put a guy whose health was dubious in with fucking Brock, tho.
They put Undertaker in the ring with Brock multiple times and also cleared Tommy Dreamer to wrestle in the past. Not doing Brock/Bryan was not a Bryan health concern decision especially since they put him in a goddamn Ladder Match on the same PPV
I imagine it has to be better than what they're doing right now trying to make him top face as-is.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
He main events Wrestlemanias, sells a ton of merch, has marquee matchups, is a pretty good worker, he dominates social media for years, is improving his promos and hes pretty young still. Is career path is working.
Look at his mannerisms in the ring and his promos, hes inviting you to boo for him and you all fall for it.
You dont like it, I get it, were all fantasy bookers to an extent, but hes doing fine.
Look at his mannerisms in the ring and his promos, hes inviting you to boo for him and you all fall for it.
You dont like it, I get it, were all fantasy bookers to an extent, but hes doing fine.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You don't even need my anecdotal evidence, you just need to look at top at the top of the full-timer merch sales and the reaction he got on Monday. I don't know why you feel you have to defeat reality's facts.
So what? It's a three hour weekly show. You're not going to like everything. The demographics are broader than young dudes, guys. The business is passing you by.
Kurt fucking Angle is on TV every week again. You guys are miserable.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
So what, though? It's fucking wrestling, do you guys need your heels and faces plainly packaged and advertised to you like you're children? We can form opinions and express them, yes. Doesn't change that he's selling the most merch of the full-timers. Vote with your wallet.
Who else could come out and stand still for 15 minutes and get that reaction? Who cares if it's boos or cheers, man? That reaction is fucking gold any person in any entertainment industry would want.
No one gets that heat but Roman, and no one full-time sells more merch than Roman. Until you guys vote with your wallets and attention span, why change anything?
He was over, sure, but the whole group was over, and he was so very protected in that stable. He only ever had to do the hot tag and get the pin, and do the last line of the promo after Ambrose and Seth did most of the wrestling/talking.
When he lost the protection of the group, to the shock of hopefully few, his gaping flaws were exposed. As soon as the Shield ended, he immediately was thrust into world title programs and main events.
And that Roman/Bryan talk is wrong, too. The Rumble might have been the mass turn on him when people just rejected his superpush, but I noticed people beginning to turn on him, mostly online, late in the Shield's run when they started making it "Roman & Friends" and making it revolve around him the star even though he was the weakest of the three talent wise. It only got stronger post-Shield until it exploded at the 2015 Rumble.
TimeEffect
Member
Huh? to be heel u have to beat up a face. Not in a match but unprovoked.
Until then roman is simply showing his haters he can withstand them. its the unrelentless fans who turned on roman
all he did was win his matches fair and square. he's a face.
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