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ZeniMax: Palmer Luckey knowingly lied about creating VR, used stolen code & resources
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
mugurumakensei
Member
In the case of Luckey, there's a fairly public trail in regards to his ability to build headsets. there's no in between here. Zenimax is overstating the software component of modern VR so they can get more money if they win. However, optics, head tracking via HW, and comfort ( material choice ) are far more important to contemporary VR. those are things in which Palmer Luckey does know, and Carmack isn't as great at.
WooHooAlex
Member
I'm pretty sure when they say "developed by ZeniMax" they really just mean John Carmack, but even then I don't know how they could substantiate such a claim if Carmack does not corroborate. Which he inevitably won't.
Carmack's collaboration with Luckey is what led to the prototype Rift, so I don't really understand how they make the claim that Luckey was not involved when there will be easily provable differences between the work Carmack had done prior and the prototype Rift (which for the purposes of a lawsuit I'm sure Carmack would be eager to list in great detail). I feel like they're banking on Carmack's work on HMDs being legally attributable to ZeniMax, but Carmack already publicly detailed Luckey's involvement in the media himself that led to the first Rift prototype that - as they mention here was demoed using Doom 3 - which ZeniMax didn't ever dispute at the time while Carmack was still a ZeniMax employee.
Carmack's collaboration with Luckey is what led to the prototype Rift, so I don't really understand how they make the claim that Luckey was not involved when there will be easily provable differences between the work Carmack had done prior and the prototype Rift (which for the purposes of a lawsuit I'm sure Carmack would be eager to list in great detail). I feel like they're banking on Carmack's work on HMDs being legally attributable to ZeniMax, but Carmack already publicly detailed Luckey's involvement in the media himself that led to the first Rift prototype that - as they mention here was demoed using Doom 3 - which ZeniMax didn't ever dispute at the time while Carmack was still a ZeniMax employee.
thepenguin55
Member
Yes, this alone is why I would never be inclined to believe Bethesda. They have a proven track record of being shady. This is still just Bethesda being butthurt over Carmack's departure.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Excellent, thanks for sharing this. Yeah this doesn't make sense to me, and you'd think Zeni's lawyer's wouldn't be this sloppy. So either they know something we don't and somehow Palmer had backdoor on the sly pm dealings with Carmack and then they totally started talking publicly like it was an initial...yeah I can't even finish that's too absurd to take seriously. I call bull until something more compelling comes out.
Hale-XF11
Member
Palmer himself has always stated that he's a hardware tinkerer of sorts and not a software programmer by any means, so I'm not really sure what zenimax is getting at.
Yeah, that too. This comes well before Carmack ever entered the picture.
Yeah, that too. This comes well before Carmack ever entered the picture.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
My fanboy fantasy, a counter suit makes Zenimax sell Fallout I.P. to Paradox, who's hands the keys to Obsidian.
That Luckey did not have the training or talent to bring vr to market, yet Occulus CEO propagated lies about Luckey being VR Jesus, or something like that.
Hale-XF11
Member
In that case, it doesn't sound like zenimax has any ground to stand on.
mugurumakensei
Member
Read the first sentence. you'll find a distinct lack of talk about hardware. it's all about Zenimax's code, demos, and games.
I mean, it could be both.
Netrunner2k2
Member
A couple more liars outed and Giant Bomb might have a new year-end category.
AwesomeMeat
PossumMeat
Alan Yates of valve pretty much said that the cv1 is tech mostly derived from Valve. Just more fuel for the flames.
Alan Yates said:
maquiladora
Member
I said wow.
Aren't those the things that Oculus got off of Valve before the Facebook buyout?
Edit: I should add allegedly. Something about Valve setting up a SteamVR room for Oculus, and then after the facebook buyout all contact stopped.
Here is the "famous" MTBS thread.
From a Wired article in 2014: The Inside Story of Oculus Rift and How Virtual Reality Became Reality
So basically this from Zenimax:
This is the part that could potentially have merit:
From a Wired article in 2014: The Inside Story of Oculus Rift and How Virtual Reality Became Reality
So basically this from Zenimax:
Is quite clearly bullshit.
This is the part that could potentially have merit:
If Carmack was responsible for the coding the image distortion filter, then it's possible that Zenimax "owns" that code in the legal sense. And Carmack used Doom 3 source to demo the headset.
Future PhaZe
Member
doesn't really make sense that Carmack would just off and join someone like that though
"...without any substantial contribution from Luckey." Idk, it sounds like they are questioning any role LP had.
If I recall, Valve at the time weren't planning on releasing any sort of headset, and because of that, most of their VR team jumped ship to Oculus anyway to work on CV1. Was Valve actively experimenting with VR prior to DK1?
This doesn't sound any more valid than when the case was first brought up.
lol what does Vive have to do with this case?
lol what does Vive have to do with this case?
I guess we can't trust anyone who is barefoot
(But to be fair these are so far only allegations from what I can tell.)
Is Gavin Belson the CEO of ZeniMax now?
The real inventor of Oculus
My thoughts exactly.
Yeah, posted in the other Zenimax thread.
I paid Palmer to make me an high-res HMD back in 2009/2010, and it ended up being his first prototype. This was a long time before Carmack joined the forum. After he built the PR1(Prototype 1), he made quite a few more named prototypes before Carmack joined the forums and asked to borrow one. Each one increasingly more Rift-like.
He really was doing this stuff before any Zenimax/Carmack intervention.
SinSilla was a part of the community too. He built a badass VFX1 mod that I really, really wanted to buy at the same time I bought Palmer's PR1. This was the days where everything on the market was shit, and we clung to the ideas of people in the tiny community to make something better. Palmer didn't do it alone, obviously. He was a member of the community and got ideas and help from everyone, but he was the one who kept driving forward. Originally all he ever intended was a kit for anyone in the community, and we were thrilled to even get that.
I paid Palmer to make me an high-res HMD back in 2009/2010, and it ended up being his first prototype. This was a long time before Carmack joined the forum. After he built the PR1(Prototype 1), he made quite a few more named prototypes before Carmack joined the forums and asked to borrow one. Each one increasingly more Rift-like.
He really was doing this stuff before any Zenimax/Carmack intervention.
SinSilla was a part of the community too. He built a badass VFX1 mod that I really, really wanted to buy at the same time I bought Palmer's PR1. This was the days where everything on the market was shit, and we clung to the ideas of people in the tiny community to make something better. Palmer didn't do it alone, obviously. He was a member of the community and got ideas and help from everyone, but he was the one who kept driving forward. Originally all he ever intended was a kit for anyone in the community, and we were thrilled to even get that.
Zepp Twofist
Member
Zenimax is a known predatory company, and they are probably not happy about how their relationship with Carmack ended. In the grand scheme of things you can't really point at any one person as the originator of VR when all the current players were dabbling more or less independently before the original showing of the Carmack/Palmer prototype. This is just the regular corporate lawsuit bullshit. I doubt it will have big consequences in the end.
Ratchet1848
Member
Palmer would have been 12 years old in 2005.
BolognaOni
Member
Probably there is SOME level of truth in the complaint, but it's just as assuredly exaggerated to the limit of credulity.
Guess we'll see if/when it gets settled, or eventually goes to trial.
Guess we'll see if/when it gets settled, or eventually goes to trial.
mugurumakensei
Member
Considering they are saying Rift VR was developed substantially at Zenimax, you'd have to buy that Zenimax was somehow working on HW and chose not to release anything because reasons.
that is the whole statement relies on the reader disregarding that Rift is a headset.
Turin Turambar
Member
I see some confused people on the first page. They are considering everything John Carmmack ever did, coded, designed, thought or dreamed as part of the Zenimax intellectual property. His farts? Also theirs.
From what I know, he coded again his code from zero once he got out from id, but of course Zenimax will say that's also their property as he truly had the ideas in his mind from his time in id.
Of course, it's all his fault, he was the one who sold out to a mega corp for millions. Hell, it's even known their are litigation-friendly.
From what I know, he coded again his code from zero once he got out from id, but of course Zenimax will say that's also their property as he truly had the ideas in his mind from his time in id.
Of course, it's all his fault, he was the one who sold out to a mega corp for millions. Hell, it's even known their are litigation-friendly.
It was a typo(mind blip) on my part. It was 2010.
AwesomeMeat
PossumMeat
Here is a decent write up about it. They were openly sharing information because Valve was supporting them before the Facebook buyout. I'm not implying Oculus did anything wrong, just saying Palmer has had software and hardware support from Valve and Zenimax if they are to be believed.
http://www.roadtovr.com/alan-yates-rift-is-direct-copy-of-valves-vr-research/
chromatic9
Member
Seems as they're talking about the VR technology as in getting it to work with a game and programming. I'm sure its well understood Palmer built several units.
The big issue is Carmack did all this work while under Zenimax.
The big issue is Carmack did all this work while under Zenimax.
Graphics Horse
Member
From my interpretation I don't think the Palmer Luckey bits are about his software development credentials per-se, but instead I would assume a branching point with which to make the case that there is nothing software-wise Palmer could've done, or had for others to build off of when Carmack joined. Thus because of this a majority, if not the entirety of Oculus' software platform is stolen rather than something modified, changed, or built upon.
Think of this like music copyrights where it's possible that two groups can create similar sounding songs but have never heard one another. The intent to directly have copied has to be proven and this might be ZeniMax's attempt to do so by stating that there's no way Oculus could've built something without what was stolen or borrowed.
For what it's worth Carmack also joined later on which grants greater credence to this being a non-issue. But him joining before launch might make the case that it couldn't have launched without Carmack's files.
Think of this like music copyrights where it's possible that two groups can create similar sounding songs but have never heard one another. The intent to directly have copied has to be proven and this might be ZeniMax's attempt to do so by stating that there's no way Oculus could've built something without what was stolen or borrowed.
For what it's worth Carmack also joined later on which grants greater credence to this being a non-issue. But him joining before launch might make the case that it couldn't have launched without Carmack's files.
Raiden1018
Banned
Welp. Looks like Luckey's gonna have to make a run for it...
LowlySmokeGuy
Banned
This is more believable to me than single-handedly developing VR in a garage.