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ZeniMax: Palmer Luckey knowingly lied about creating VR, used stolen code & resources
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
TyrantGuardian
Member
Oh look, ZeniMax being complete assholes again. What a shocker. Not going to jump to any specific conclusions here, but my guess is they are really angry with Carmack. One can only wonder why he left in the first place.
BlastProcessing
Member
We don't know how long the lawyers were negotiating/posturing before the Facebook acquisition. These things do take time.
Even then Zenimax's timing or greed in the matter isn't particularly relevant. Only the facts of the case.
Facts that we will probably never learn because this thing will most likely be settled before it reaches trial.
Refreshment.01
Member
Don't want to emit any judgement towards any of the parties involved... never the less Zenimax's track record speaks for itself.
My qualm is the following: "Inventor of contemporary VR". With all the respect Mr. Lucky deserves, i think is just too much to grant that title to one group, less so to an individual. Specially, when most any company or team that wanted to enter the VR arena has done so with a decent solution.
This tell us that VR as it is now, is an old yet brilliant idea for which technology matured enough to properly realize the vision. The credit should go to the pioneers of the medium in the first place.
My qualm is the following: "Inventor of contemporary VR". With all the respect Mr. Lucky deserves, i think is just too much to grant that title to one group, less so to an individual. Specially, when most any company or team that wanted to enter the VR arena has done so with a decent solution.
This tell us that VR as it is now, is an old yet brilliant idea for which technology matured enough to properly realize the vision. The credit should go to the pioneers of the medium in the first place.
Alx
Member
I never knew Luckey claimed to have developed any tech, I thought he just came with the concept of taping lenses to a phone screen for a cheap helmet, got a successful kickstarter and attracted talented people with that visibility. We knew from the beginning that Carmack brought the inertial tracking part, didn't we ?
Garani
Member
In other news PSVR would be the only platform on sale this holiday season, and will be killing it.
Full Disclosure: I didn't read the link, so I have no idea if Zenimax is asking for a stop in sales of Oculus, or not. But I have to write the witty remark
Netherscourge
Banned
RIP Occulus Rift.
Zuckerberg will probably just buy Zenimax to save everyone's asses
Jarod McChicken
Member
BlastProcessing
Member
This is how suits like these work. They are going to throw as many claims as they can against the wall and try to make them all seem as bad as possible. At the end of the day, they only need to make a few claims stick so there is no reason not to cast a wide net.
Lol at the "OMFG IF THIS IS TRUE" posts in this topic
Clearly people haven't been following this for years
Spoiler: Zenimax is spouting bullshit
Carmack left Id specifically because they weren't interested in VR. They claim that anything he worked on, ever, while being an employee of Zenimax, belongs to Zenimax. That includes things he did on the side, outside of the company, like helping Palmer Luckey on the second rift prototype (the ducttape one).
This isn't a bombshell, this is just more of Zenimax being assholes.
Clearly people haven't been following this for years
Spoiler: Zenimax is spouting bullshit
Carmack left Id specifically because they weren't interested in VR. They claim that anything he worked on, ever, while being an employee of Zenimax, belongs to Zenimax. That includes things he did on the side, outside of the company, like helping Palmer Luckey on the second rift prototype (the ducttape one).
This isn't a bombshell, this is just more of Zenimax being assholes.
But two months after the announcement I believe. I remember it being straight after GDC, the week after in March, just after the unveil of the PSVR.
NegativeCero
Banned
Those are some heavy accusations they're throwing out there. I'm sure it's just a money grab. It's s just too crazy. Hopefully Zenimax gets stomped if it gets to that point.
yes.
What's funny is Microsoft's only VR Plan B at the moment is working with GabeN - who still despises Microsoft.
Or...hey, maybe Sony will be a pal and make PSVR compatible with Scorpio, too. LoL.
xeroborn55
Member
The article in the OP makes it seem like Zenimax was developing VR or something and Carmack took his work on that to Oculus. If Zenimax's only claim is that Carmack was an employee and everything he worked on while employed belongs to the company then that is bullshit. I don't doubt that his contract stated exactly that though, and that Carmack being Carmack (i have read Masters of Doom also) didnt care or didn't pay attention to the fineprint. Having Carmack sign a contract that limited what he owns seems like exactly the kind of dick move Zenimax would make as well. If I was a contract lawyer at Zenimax and knew what Carmack was capable of, that is what I would do.
innervision961
Member
Wait a second, Palmer lied about something? I'm shocked.
Elfforkusu
Member
StrategyFan
Member
now all we need is for occulus to challenge zenimax to resolve this issue with a game of quake 3
cripterion
Member
Lol I was thinking the same thing.
I could see it imploding in on itself just due to the business side of things, if not for stuff like this, for the sheer size of the push and money behind it before it has even proven itself financially or has proven itself to be mass market ready, hardware and software development wise.
Suzushiiro
Banned
I'm reminded of the old SCO Linux lawsuits that happened about a decade back, where some company decided they owned the rights to Linux on a bullshit technicality and started suing various Linux distributors.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Welcome back. So Carmack didn't experiment with any VR while on the clock at id/Zenimax? I thought that was what they were asserting against him separate from the Luckey collab.
BlastProcessing
Member
This is a very concrete claim:
Especially the part about the hardware. If Zenimax can substantiate, then it doesn't matter if they are assholes or not and it doesn't matter what their intentions they had toward VR. Neither are material. Theft is not justified even if the person you took from was a jerk or because you believed they weren't going to use the thing you took in the way that you wished.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
Spiral Insanity
Banned
Okay
Version 3.0
Member
It wouldn't be the tech industry without claims of who stole this, or who 'really' invented that.
Zenimax claims that John Carmack was always on the clock at Zenimax, that anything he invented or worked on while an employee, regardless of personal or professional use, it property of Zenimax.
That isn't an usual claim in the tech industry, btw.
What you quoted has nothing to do with hardware. They are talking about software, specifically a version of Doom 3 that Carmack had modded to work with the Rift.
BlastProcessing
Member
You are correct. I read tool as hardware when that wasn't the case. My larger point stands. Zenimax is making concrete claims against Carmack. It comes down to the particularities of his contract.
Said contracts are hardly a slam dunk effort, as Zenimax needs to demonstrate a breech of their non-compete clause. There is much evidence that Zenimax had no interest in VR and were actually shelving VR projects (most notable, Doom 3 VR, the "tool" in question, had been blocked by Zenimax). Carmack left id specifically because they weren't pursuing VR, and that's what he wanted to work on. Zenimax only started talking about their desire to work in VR after Facebook bought Oculus for billions of dollars, pointing to Carmack's own pet projects developed in his free time as evidence of their commitment to VR. Those same projects are the ones Zenimax turned down originally.
None of these claims are new, this has been something going on for years now. This is just Zenimax restating what they have been saying for a long while now, and many people following this stuff don't expect it to stick. It'll likely all be settled outside of court anyways.
Again, all this shit is common in the tech world. I myself am going through something similar.
That is one hell of an accusation.
...and now I am hoping this happens...
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Oh god, I wondered when this one would come up.
Exploratory
Banned
Is Gavin Belson the CEO of ZeniMax now?
The real inventor of Oculus
Rofl it's amazing how similar this is to that storyline.
exmachina64
Banned
Damn, I wanna live in that timeline.
Silicon Valley's running into an Onion problem.
But it's cooler to hate Oculus now, didn't you know?
ScientificPizza
Banned
I'm not saying that it's not without reason, but ZeniMax REALLY have a chip on their shoulder about this VR stuff
I always looked at their anger over it as they considered their acquisition of id as just an acquisition of Carmack
I always looked at their anger over it as they considered their acquisition of id as just an acquisition of Carmack
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
The article says nothing about Carmack but from what im reading of the lawsuit Zenimax is saying that Carmack helping Palmer was theft of Zenimax resources?
And they are suing Carmack for this too? Unless im missing something.. get fucked Zenimax.
And they are suing Carmack for this too? Unless im missing something.. get fucked Zenimax.
xeroborn55
Member
I don't entirely buy that. As Zenimax has shown with Wolfenstein and Doom there was value in the id IP.
Yeah they acquired Carmack, but they didnt do anything with him. I envisioned a new Elder Scrolls with a Carmack assisted engine when Zenimax bought id, but they never did anything with him of note.
Ya, that's absolute nonsense. The changes provided by Carmack hardware wise would be superficial at best; The general design has been the same since before Palmer even met him.
Let me give you an example of what is going on
Imagine if Doc Brown had worked at Delorean Motor Company in Back to the Future. He was just a normal employee at DMC working on their cars. In his spare time, at home, he develops time travel technology in the form of his fusion engine. He then bolts his fusion engine onto a Delorean frame to demonstrate how it can work with any car. He shows it to his Delorean bosses, and they say they have no interest in time travel technology, and tell him to stop working on it. So Doc Brown leaves DMC and teams up with John Titor, and together they sell their time travel tech for billions. Afterwards, DMC comes in and says that because he bolted the Fusion Engine to a Delorean frame, that DMC owns his fusion engine outright, and the tech they sold is a rip off of DMC's time travel tech (which is actually Doc Brown's tech developed in his free time.) Additionally, they are claiming that John Titor also stole their tech, because he teamed up with Doc Brown, despite Titor having worked in Time Travel for years prior.
This is the exact same thing going on here, except replace time travel with VR, replace the delorean frame with Doom 3, replace DMC with Zenimax, replace Doc Brown with John Carmack, and replace John Titor with Palmer Luckey.
Imagine if Doc Brown had worked at Delorean Motor Company in Back to the Future. He was just a normal employee at DMC working on their cars. In his spare time, at home, he develops time travel technology in the form of his fusion engine. He then bolts his fusion engine onto a Delorean frame to demonstrate how it can work with any car. He shows it to his Delorean bosses, and they say they have no interest in time travel technology, and tell him to stop working on it. So Doc Brown leaves DMC and teams up with John Titor, and together they sell their time travel tech for billions. Afterwards, DMC comes in and says that because he bolted the Fusion Engine to a Delorean frame, that DMC owns his fusion engine outright, and the tech they sold is a rip off of DMC's time travel tech (which is actually Doc Brown's tech developed in his free time.) Additionally, they are claiming that John Titor also stole their tech, because he teamed up with Doc Brown, despite Titor having worked in Time Travel for years prior.
This is the exact same thing going on here, except replace time travel with VR, replace the delorean frame with Doom 3, replace DMC with Zenimax, replace Doc Brown with John Carmack, and replace John Titor with Palmer Luckey.
ScientificPizza
Banned
I don't mean that's 100% of the reason for the acquisition, just that they considered that the biggest asset
They have seemed burned by this, going all the way back to when Carmack was splitting his time between the two
RedAssedApe
Banned
most mass market friendly.
Nostremitus
Member
If he developed anything using Zenimax assets or equipment while he was under their employ they would have legal rights to whatever he developed and likely anything that they used those developments to create if they can prove it.
If they prove Carmack stole trade secrets, could he actually then face felony economic espionage charges?
Key point here is that it only has to be related to it, not included in the final product.